On my Yamaha PSR2000 (and on the other current model PSR keyboards as well), in 'full keyboard' mode, there are certain 'chord recognition' configurations which trigger inappropriate sounding auto accompaniment bass patterns to play. The chord recognition inappropriately reads certain chord configurations as 'on bass' slash type chords, which results in the auto accompaniment bass part to play just a 'single note' repeatedly. The problem specificly occurs when playing 1st, 2nd and 3rd inversion chords with the left hand, while the right plays melody notes, within an octave of where the left hand chord is played.

Here is a detailed example of the problem:

1) On the PSR2000, PSR9000, or 9000pro, set the keyboard to: 'Full Keyboard' auto accompaniment mode.

2) With your left hand, play a G7 chord (1st inversion): notes from left to right: B2-D3-F3-G3

3) The keyboard's LCD screen will display this as a G7 chord and the auto accompaniment bass part begins playing a G bass pattern, typically root & 5th (G & D)on simpler styles, and a walking bass line based on G, on the more complex styles & variations.

4) Now (while continuing to hold down the 1st inversion G7 chord with your left hand), SLOWLY play (with your right hand) a slow descending scale (dominant scale) beginning with G4: (G4-F4-E4-D4-C4-B3-A3).

5) LISTEN CLOSELY to the auto accompaniment bass pattern being played as you VERY SLOWLY play this descending scale. The chords are recognized (and displayed on the screen) by the arranger as follows:

G4: G7
F4: G7
E4: G7 (13)
D4: G7/B
C4: G7
B3: G7/B
A3: G7 (9)

As you can see (and subsequently hear), when either D4 or B3 are played (with the right hand), the chord is recognized as a slash chord, and the auto-accompaniment bass part just plays a 'single' note (B)repeatedly. All other above notes played trigger the auto-accompaninent bass part to correctly play a G7 bass line. Yamaha's decision (or is it a bug?) to recognize D4 & B3 as 'on bass' slash chords is both inappropriate and unpleasing to the ear in context to the other diatonic notes played. Playing D4 or B3 in the right hand should have been recognized by the arranger as G7. 'On bass' type slash chord recognition should only be reserved for notes played BELOW (not above) the chord played, which the PSR keyboards already do.

The above 'on bass' slash chord problem occurs with ALL OTHER 1st, 2nd, and 3rd inversion chords as well.

Here's just another example:

C triad (1st inversion): left hand playing (as a chord): E2-G2-C3

Right hand playing a slow descending scale : C4-B3-A3-G3-F3-E3-D3

Chord recognition results:

C4: C
B3: C
A3: Am7
G3: C/E
F3: Eb69/E
E3: C/E
D3: C9

All of the chords recognized as slash chords imho, are not pleasing to the ear, creating a bass line which seems to hop from a pleasing C bass line to a repetitive (disconcerting) E played repeatedly. Playing G3 should be recognized as a C chord, playing F3 should be recognized as Cadd4, and playing E3 should be recognized as a C chord.

I'm really curious if other people have noticed this problem as well. It seems like most people here don't play in full keyboard mode when playing the PSR boards. I'm wondering if one of the reasons might be because of this problem.

George Kaye and others with connections with Yamaha's technical support team or R & D dept: PLEASE forward this post to the appropriate people (at Yamaha) so we can get some feedback from them on what I consider to be a serious 'full keyboard' mode chord recognition flaw. The Technics KN keyboards (in full keyboard mode) don't exibit this problem, so I'm wondering if this glitch was intentional on Yamaha's part, or just an overlooked bug that needs to be corrected. I hope this problem will be looked into right away and corrected in time for the release of the upcoming Yamaha Tyros.

Thanks in advance to anyyone who can help me get this problem looked into (by the appropriate people at Yamaha) and hopefully resolved. I look forward to hearing feedback from you guys.

- Scott

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http://scottyee.com

Scott,

I was able to get the exact same results out of my 9000. I did have to locate a good walking base style before I could notice the problem you have referred to. Rather it is a product of design or not, I do not know. I imagine with all the possible chord variations the program engineers had to deal with, maybe they felt this was the solution. I'm with you though, when you have an active base line moving between different notes, it makes for a very noticable difference when the base line just keeps hitting the same note repeatidly.
Good observation Scott.


Dennis

Split mode (even by assigning both sides to the same sound) WILL NOT accomplish the SAME thing 'full keyboard' mode does. Full keyboard mode allows you to trigger a chord ANYWHERE on the Keyboard: EITHER in the right hand, left hand , or even across TWO hands. For example, in full keyboard mode, you can trigger an F7 chord, with the left hand playing the root (F) and 7th (Eb), while playing the 3rd (A) with the right hand up 2 or 3 octaves. You can't do this in split mode. Full keyboard mode offers MANY more keyboard playing possibilities not possible in split mode and is the prefered choice for pianist type keyboard players.

Hi Scott,
I`m not even going to attempt to give any advice , your knowlage of chord therory and structure are much greater than mine, but I can tell you that I too have had the display show the wrong chord (IMO)
If you try playing a song like "For Once in My LIfe" or "Whiter Shade of Pale" the "Y2K" never displays the actual chords/w-bass note properly.
So I just keep playing the way I always have and just consider the display a "bug of the beast"

O-BTW, I have visited your web-site on several occasions and every time I try to download "Don`t Let the Sun" (mp3) I can`t use it , for some reason it downloads as a "document to large to be opened by simple text"
Is it my "Mac" I can download other mp3`s? Thanks for your help and best of luck with your 2000 but I relay think it`s the "nature of the beast"
jedi

Hi Dennis: I definitely feel if Yamaha doesn't consider it a bug, then it definitely is an issue of BAD (un-musical) design then. Afterall, Yamaha's arranger keyboard competitor, Technics, displays no problems like this in their 'full keyboard' mode recognition table (KN6500/6000/5000 boards), so I'd expect that Yamaha's PSR boards shouldn't either. I can only hope that Yamaha will take a 'serious' look at this and correct what I consider a serious flaw which can be EASILY corrected and implemented in the new Tyros . - Scott

Yes Scott, hold your breath and Yamaha will get right on it.
Then when they get a fix for it, just bundle that thing up and send it to them for a few weeks while they solder in a Flash Rom upgrade.
Actually, if they cared, they could check it out and address it on the Tyros before they ship. I'm betting that since very few people use that mode, they will not give it a second thought.
DonM

If what you say is true, this may be more a case of 'putting the cart before the horse' Possibly the reason few people use 'full keyboard' mode on the Yamaha PSRs is because it just 'doesn't work' properly. I know 'quite a few' professional piano keyboard players (including myself) who play in 'full keyboard' mode exclusively, when playing the Technics KN arranger keyboards . . . Why?! Because it WORKS !

Hey Scott,
Thanks for the grammer correction...
I'z dun't talk soz gud sumtimez.

It's a bug...

Dennis

No, the keyboard of course doesn't & shouldn't need to read 'my' mind, but instead follow a certain set of chord recognition rules set by the manufacterer.

You obviously didn't read what I said, and I 'REPEAT' . . . the Technics brand KN keyboards 'DO' recognize chords appropriately (when playing & soloing, including playing passing tones) in 'full keyboard' mode, so obviously Yamaha could set up their PSR boards to do this in the same way too.



Maybe, but split mode has other limited playing retrictions which I outlined clearly earlier in this thread.

On the Techncis KN keyboards, I did not experience any chord confusion problems (except on rare occasion), while playing a lead line or soloing in full keyboard mode.




Yes the intelligence is based on a set of rule. I say, just change a couple of the chord recognition rules (to match what Technics has already achieved) and the Yamaha's PSR full keyboard mode chord recognition will work fine. The 'bottom line' is that the auto accompaniment harmony & bass lines need to sound appropriate to what you are playing. When I play or solo (in full keyboard mode) on the Technics KN keyboards, the chord recognition triggers apppriate sounding bass lines & accomp harmonies, yet on the PSR keyboards, there is a glitch on just 'a few' of the note configurations.
This is a SIMPLE problem with a SIMPLE solution . . . PERIOD !

Like I said earlier, more people would be playing in 'Full Keyboard' if Yamaha corrected this simple problem.




Your suggestion sounds like just "burying your head in the sand". We obviously disagree completely about this issue. I suspect you may not understand because you don't come from a background as a keyboard piano player, but instead a bass player, and that you primarily play the arranger in 'one finger' mode?

I peformed on the Technics KN5000 professionally for over 2-1/2 years in 'full keyboard' mode achieving excellent sounding auto accompaniment results. I now play the PSR2000 exclusively in split mode because of it's chord recognization problems in full keyboard mode. I've had a lot of experience playing in both split & full keyboard modes so think I'm highly qualifed to state that full keyboard mode playing works well, especially for traditional keyboard players, when the chord recognition table is setup properly (as per Technics KN boards). I rest my case.

Hi,

This is the result with pa80

First example
G4: G7
F4: G7
E4: G7
D4: G7
C4: Bdim (bemol 9) (???)
B4: G7
A4: G7(9)

Second example
C4: C
B4: C
A3: C
G3: C
F3: C11
E3: C
D3: C9

Correction

First example
G4
F4
E4
D4
C3
B3
A3.......... of course

ok, excuse

First
G4
F4
E4
D4
C4
B3
A3

Second
C4
B3
A3
G3
F3
E3
D3

Frank,
I have known Scott in person and I don't think that he is arrogant and combative. Scott is simply a very precise person (someone would say "picky") that cannot stand things that, in his own opinion, are "wrong", especially from a musical point of view. Please, consider that music is really the focus of his life and that, more than an arranger player, he is first and foremost a piano player. Maybe he is just fighting an impossibile battle, but he is trying to have inside an arranger keyboard the same degree of flexibility and musical perfection that he can have inside an acoustic piano.
I too sometimes have problems following what he writes, but at the end have to agree that he is right. People like me, who most often tend to accept things for what they are, will probably never change the world. People like Scott, who sometimes can give on someone else's nerves, are those that in the end will maybe change the world where we live.
Andrea

Attack? Just WHERE was I attacking YOU? No attacks. I was only responding to your statments, clarifying my point of view in a typical 'forum like' approach.



If you yourself play in 'full keyboard' mode and Yamaha's 'full keyboard mode' chord recognition is working well for you, then you definitely have a valid point. But to challenge my point of view based ONLY on conjecture that it "may just apply to many others" is blindly accepting something which could in fact be a chord recognition problem that Yamaha could improve on. Bug or not, at least Yamaha should be made aware of it, and then make their decision after viewing the evidence.



Talking about feeling attacked. Hey, didn't you know I began gigging (with a portable casio) 'in the sandbox'?



It's beginning to sound like you're on Yamaha's payroll now. I agree that some two handed playing styles work on the PSRs when playing in 'split mode', but topic is specifically about 'full keyboard' mode two handed playing.



Arguing? I was just defending & clarifying MY position.




I'm sure your two handed playing technique is great. I never said it wasn't. When I said "I suspect you may not understand because you don't come from a background as a keyboard piano player, but instead a bass player, and that you primarily play the arranger in 'one finger' mode", this was NOT meant an attack on your playing proficiency or musicianship. I was merely trying to figure out WHY you couldn't understand my position about 'full keyboard mode' playing. I'm sure you're an accomplished two handed player, but it was you yourself that said that you play two handed in 'split' mode, NOT 'full keyboard' mode.

I initiated this thread to bring up what I believe are a few problems in the way Yamaha chose to recognize a few chords in'full keyboard' mode and this whole thing somehow turned into me having to defend myself. I really don't think the disagreement is about the issue at hand (full keyboard mode chord recognition), but something else: that Uncle Dave & I just can't get along, no matter how hard we BOTH try.



Well, if that's the case, then we should go back to those toy casio keyboards of yester year, because the residential market seemed to be pleased with them then. The point is that our aim should be to 'encourage' the keyboard manufacters to improve their product. Arrangers have come a long way, but there is always room for improvement. I don't think I was shouting. I had just posted this thread in hopes that Yamaha would at least take at look at the issue.

dont mean to butt in, but i gotta agree with scott here. you guys are jumping all over him, and its all based on reading the wrong tone into his words. i think this is a prime example of the fallicy of the written word; theres always gonna be another way to read into it. anyway, i hope we can all resolve our differences, and i hope yamaha DOES do something about it, because i personally play in full mode quite a lot and i have noticed similiar problems on occasion. thanks! Zack

Andrea, Zack, and others (via private emails): Thanks for your support My intention was not to stir up trouble, but only to bring up a few isolated problems I've encountered with Yamaha's 'full keyboard' mode recognition, which Zack, Two Nuts, and jedi have also experienced. This is not an issue of just trying to get Yamaha to please an esoteric whim of my own, but an attempt to point out an issue that Yamaha should at least take a look at, especially considering that Technics (imho) has been very succesful at implementing 'full keyboard' mode chord recognition. I know many players who find the 'full keyboard mode' works well on the KN keyboards, but I have yet to hear of any PSR players here who think Yamaha's 'full keyboard' mode is working well for them. Ok, some of you might say, if you don't like the way Yamaha does it, buy a Tehcnics keyboard then. Well that's not the point. I want to give Yamaha the chance to at least listen to my point, and then let them decide to (if they choose) to modify their full keyboard mode chord recognition table. Is this not reasonable?

Btw, I just noticed that Uncle Dave suddenly deleted all his postings on this thread.

I think I follow what Scott is saying and I tend to agree with him. I've owned a ton of autoplay boards and, yes, each generation seems to display improvements. However, my single biggest complaint has always centered around the chord recognition problem and the lack of quick, precise tracking of the bass line. Maybe the technology is not there yet, I don't know. Are we asking for too much? I do know that I'm using Band-In-A-Box much more lately to generate backing tracks because of the preciseness of the bass line, seemingly unlimited style selection, and fast chord recognition.
Larry

I was removing fuel from the fire .....
Didn't like the direction this was taking.

Sounds like you're saying that arranger keyboard manufacterers only design arrangers with home (residence) players in mind. Of course arranger keyboard manufactering is a business with the aim of making $, but I believe that the keyboard manufacters (Ketron etc) are truly wanting to improve their products and are turning to us pro players for guidance in this area. You seem to think I'm a (harping?)complainer. I don't just complain, I also offer SOLUTIONS!



Well, the bottom line, even for me as a trained musician, is 'how' it SOUNDS. Irregardless of one's musical training or background, I think it would be quite noticeable to even the untrained ear, that the full kb mode chord voicing recognition problem I outlined, does not sound pleasant or musical.

AS far as the issue of timing resolution , I still believe that 92 ppq is NOT adequately suficient. 192 ppq is better, but just the fact that Yamaha has recently increased the timing resolution to a whopping 1,920 ppq shows that they acknowledge the importance of HIGHER timing resolution accuracy. .

For once I agree with scottyee.
It is audible even for untrained ears.
The untrained ears most likely cannot say what it is, but they can hear the difference.
In fact I have a lot to do with this in a complete different situation.
Playing a jazz guitar together with the pianist of our combo results in same problem caused by wrong chords written.
Which is in fact one of the reasons I prefer playing by ear...

I guess I'll step up to the mic. I am a pianist. I didn't start playing on a keyboard until I bought a Korg Poly 800 almost twenty years ago. I hated it. I'm accustomed to haveing 88 keys that I make full use of. The idea of trying to play music on something less seem retarded. However, with time I came to appreciate some of the benifits that a keyboard could offer. One of my favorite modes of operation is the full keyboard mode midi'd up to my Technics P-30. I really enjoy the freedom it gives to play the music and not worry if I go out of the assigned chord recognition area. PROBLEM, the chord recognition really isn't up to par with my piano playing ability.(I know that sounds arrogant, PLEASE! don't take it that way) Not to mention, I have to play in a very simplistic form to utilize the vocal harmonizer in full keyboard mode. I have not had the opportunity to try these features out on a Technics Arranger, but if they can make it work, it's safe to say the technology is available. For me I have a hard time keeping my left hand doing nothing but triggering the chord arranger. I am used to doing as much with my left hand as my right. So I can empathize with anyones desire to have an arranger keyboard that caters a little bit more to the pianist and the way that person plays. Having said all this, bare in mind...this is all...IMHO.

Regards,
Let's all stay friends
Dennis

STAM: Thanks for performing the test on the Korg PA80. I'm happy to hear that your PA80 came up with 'correct' chord recognitions for almost every one of the melody notes played (except for perhaps Bdim ?!). This points out (to me) that the slash chord 'on bass' type chord recognition Yamaha chose, may possibly have been an oversight problem that Yamaha never really looked into. As I reinterated before, I only hope Yamaha will take at serious look at this BEFORE releasing the Tyros.

J Larry & Freddynl & Dennis (TwoNuts): Many thanks for your input & support on this issue as well.

Frank,
only after replying to your thread it came to my mind that you are the same Frank L. Rosenthal who has set up that software arranger beast in his home studio. So I think that, in the end, you and Scott belong to the same breed of people. I wonder: how can you write that arranger users are happy with their actual situation when you are the first one not to be happy? (And I seem to remember that you had a very good arranger like the 9000 Pro!)
Another guy who comes to my mind is Mike H (Mike from Alaska): he kept posting and asking if an arranger could synchronize a pre-recorded part with a style for a more realistic rendition. He too, like Scott and TwoNuts, was mainly a pianist and he too was offering hints for innovation.
Frank, I am really grateful to people like you, Scott or Mike because, like I said, even if sometimes people think "What the hell is this guy talking about?" it's thanks to people like you if things finally go the right direction.
Andrea

I think we should have a Arranger group meeting, maybe the Mid West area.Instead of bringing our arranger keyboards....we should put on boxing gloves[show our both hand skills]..I'm sure I would win, but it would be fun to see the runner ups in action..As in boxing competition, all parties shake hands and move on[hint]..

The G1000 sucks, and boxing is for sissies.