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#120142 - 07/27/06 02:00 PM Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
Guys I'm not going to start any wars here--so please don't be offended by anything I say, but "we" find at times that we have to come to "reason", and just "accept" some things.

I for one would "LOVE" a professional modern style based arranger keyboard (oh the dreams)... However, after coming down from "la la land", and reality settles in--I know the likelyhood of this happening (or at least anytime soon) is quite slim.

Now this is from the horses mouth bascially (from speaking to reps over the years). I haven't touched on the issue because it could be sensitive to some here, but it's the "truth", and hey if the reps read this and call me a "whistle blower" then so be it--because I'm going to whistle my ass off

There is a REASON why there aren't modern style based arrangers. It's not that they can't make them because they clearly can--the Original Yamaha DJX is obvious proof of that. What is often not discussed here is the "fact" that the top 3 arranger makers don't make the modern arranger because of the "targeted market" for the curent flagship arranger keyboards.

This is no joke either. The targeted market for these high end arrangers (I kid you not) is the 40+ age group. This is why the styles are "more traditional". You may ask.. hmmmm why would the companies target these age groups.... Well that's simple. Here's a few reasons.

"Statistically" the 40+ age group has more "Disposable Income" as compared to my age group (30's) and groups lower than me, and are more likely to be able to afford one.

The 40+ age group includes those individuals who have retired--thus with pensions, social security, ect in turn having more disposable income. (again that's based on statistics) They also do research based on not just age (but also take into consideration the odds of children being grown, mortages paid, car notes paid-and they figure that into the data as well).

Also because of the targeted market a "modern arranger" bearing today's prices truly would not sell (especially to the targeted market). In turn the makers would literally be shooting themselves in the foot because by doing so they have just possibly lost a large part of their market. You can't really be mad at them... I don't like it, but hey that's business.

Here's a good example:

Lets say tomorrow the (TOP 3) makers all released a new "flagship" arranger keyboard--priced according to the current market. However, these new flagships have a "twist". While they will have more modern styles such as hip hop, rap, and so on--lets say for the sake of arguement they add "tradtional styles", but and a BIG BUT the traditional styles they add are tradtional by "today's" standards.

What do I mean by that? Simple-take a traditional Country Shuffle from your current arranger (many like it-why-it's classic-it's what you grew up on). However, on the new arranger it's a Country Shuffle, but not the Country Shuffle "you" grew up on. It's a "MODERN" Country Shuffle--which is not what you grew up on. There are some di-hard country lovers who don't like the new country, and probably wouldn't care for these styles

Take rock styles for example. Right now many like the traditional "Rock-n-Roll". Well lets say the new arranger has Rock, but not the tradtional rock you know and grew up on. Lets say the new arranger has "Rock" that sounds like--Green Day, Pearl Jam, Bush, Live, and other more modern rockers. Would you like that?

How many of you would flock to this arranger, and drop your current ones? I think it's safe to assume that many wouldn't. That's not a bad thing either. You didn't grow up on these styles of music.

Oddly enough I think it's also safe to say they wouldn't attract us synth player either. Here's why.., believe it or not, there are a lot of us synth players who love arranger keyboards, and don't talk trash on them. I can tell you from my experience (and talking with my synth buddies), that one HUGE turn off for us in the pro arranger market is "drum roll" the PRICE!

I can go online and buy a "brand new" Korg Triton Extreme 61 key model for $1,899. This is clearly a pro keyboard, and would give me great results in making modern music, and it's like $1,600 less than the current pro arrangers.

The truth is "we" can control the price market on them, and it's really simple. Don't fall into the tricky advertising. When the new models come out, simply "don't" jump to upgrade at that moment. Give it some time. The makers will be forced to drop prices to try and re-coup loss.

Here's a little humor on the topic of price control. Lets say two weeks from now Yamaha releases the new Tyros 3. This model has everything your Tyros 2 has, but "hold the phone", the Tyros 3 also makes "bacon and eggs", and has a "cup holder".

They advertise in ways to make you think you "must" have this new model. They want you to think that if your T2 doesn't make bacon and eggs, and you don't have a place for your drink, you're losing out big time.

I know that's a little drastic as a comparison, but I'm sure you get my point

Anyways if I offend any of you in the 40+ age group I apologize. I've come to respect so many of you here on this forum--and I'm a strong believer that "With Age Comes Wisdom". So I'm not singling you out.

Squeak



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-27-2006).]
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GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#120143 - 07/27/06 02:19 PM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
TwoNuts Offline
Member

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 430
Loc: Vancouver, Washington. USA
Hey Squeak,

You make a very good case for your point. I agree with it on whole, however I feel that some in this 40+ age group you mention (which I begrudgingly admit to being) will argue that they do not have as much disposable income as statistic would show. Fixed income is not always that great, because it is FIXED INCOME. The bills keep goin higher, but your income does not. (not anything of note anyway) I fully understand where you are coming from and I think that it is a great observation. The music of the generations is exactly that generational. I would like to see more options for the Green Day types of music and a little more Hip Hop options (forget about the cRAP though) for the occasion where you want to make someone happy with that type of tune.

Anyway just wanted to say that I like where your comin' from with this post.


Regards,

Dennis L. Almond
aka...TwoNuts
_________________________
Regards,

Dennis L. Almond
aka...TwoNuts

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#120144 - 07/27/06 02:30 PM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
Dennis,
Thanks for the support I figured some would argue on the "disposable income" issue. However, I personally would love to see their data, and how they came to that statistic. It's possible they get the info from those who actually return the "surveys" we get with our warranty cards... Anyone actually fill those things out?

I know I personally don't have disposable income, and if I did--I'd probably dig a hole 20 feet deep, then burn the map!

I myself notice that there are quite a few in the 40+ group that also perform as well. These individuals have the upperhand in my opinion because they'll see a return on their purchase.

My age group "statistically" has "both" parents working--and we try to fit 50 hours in a 24 hour day I don't perform anymore either. Hell I'm even going back to college this fall (that's going to be fun).

Anyways thanks for understanding.

Squeak
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#120145 - 07/27/06 03:08 PM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
bruno123 Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 4912
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
Can you imagine being one of the manufactures and having to decide who to please. The answer is they will never be able to please everyone on the list, it is not possible.
I wont second-guess why they favor some over others, but the answer has to be in software. The same keyboard available with styles and sounds to fit the buyers needs. A dream, yes. I think it is possible.

Squeak, it must be frustrating not to have what you want from these keyboards but keep the faith its all coming. It will proberly get here when your in your 40's ha ha ha

John C.

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#120146 - 07/27/06 03:15 PM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
--------------------------------------------
Squeak, it must be frustrating not to have what you want from these keyboards but keep the faith its all coming. It will proberly get here when your in your 40's ha ha
--------------------------------------------

That's funny You're probably right though. When I'm in my 40's rockin out to a keyboard with styles "I" grew up on, my kids will probably be laughing at me

Squeak
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#120147 - 07/27/06 05:38 PM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
wrinkles303 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/24/02
Posts: 422
Loc: worthington ,ohio
great post

that's how bob fletcher made millions
here in florida for over 30 years. he knew what his customers would want and knew how to make them want it. his customers
were over 50 had "disposable" income. now
that generation is dying off. we are the next generation except we won't pay $15,000.00
plus for an organ BUT will pay up to $10,000.00 for a single keyboard arranger set up. because it has "that style,voice,sound or new Widgit" that we have to have. funny...how things really don't change.
"and the beat goes on"

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#120148 - 07/27/06 06:31 PM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
renig Offline
Member

Registered: 02/20/00
Posts: 643
Loc: Canada
Ahhh . . . the old 'wants and needs' thing. Convince people that what they 'want' is actually what they 'need' and you too can make millions, I guess.

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#120149 - 07/27/06 07:41 PM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
Eric, B Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/15/99
Posts: 2028
Loc: Ventura, Ca, USA
Squeak,
I hear ya loud and clearly, but let me help you to understand a couple of points:

As you know the US sales are only about 5% of the European market.
That already determines what will be in a KB for the most part.
Obviously they will listen to the Europeans before the US. Sad but true.

I'm also on the German Yamaha Forum and Yamaha did sit down with German forum members and discussed what they wanted.
The Tyros was the result and many features were implemented.

Even though I'm 40, I like more modern music too.
In Europe the target market is not 40+.
A lot of teens are on the German Yamaha forum owning a T1 or T2.
The membership is much larger than the Synthzone membership. And that's for Yamaha alone.

Coming from the 9000Pro I was very excited when I found out that the T2 actually "DID" have a much more modern feel in its styles.
It might not be what you are looking for, but we are moving in the right direction and I'm very happy with my board.
In addition the European market is flooded with third party styles that address the top charts. I have many of those and am quite happy.

Of course I feel your frustrations for the shortcomings of the US market.
But as you can see in my post it is not quite as you stated looking at it world wide.

I hope this helps.

Eric
_________________________
Genos, PSR-S970, TC Helicon VoiceLive3, Mackie 802-VLZ3 Mixer, 2 Bose L1 Pro16, Electro-Voice ZXA1 Subwoofer

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#120150 - 07/27/06 11:17 PM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
Taike Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 2814
Loc: Xingyi, Guizhou (China)
I, on the other hand, wouldn't know what to do with Hip Hop, Rap and the likes. Of course, that's because I'm not into that kind of music. I prefer a song where the melody is the main part and not the beat. But one can always buy styles, right?
My likes in music have never been on par with those in my age group. Give me the old stuff any time.
That doesn't mean that I don't want your wish to come true. We all want to have what makes us happy after all.




------------------
Khoi huk ngam sud tee huk kon diow.
_________________________
最猖獗的人权侵犯 者讨论其他国 家的人权局势而忽略本国严重的人权 问题是何等伪善。

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#120151 - 07/28/06 12:35 AM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
Carrie-uk Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 168
Loc: England
Personally, I'd just be pleased as punch if one of the top arrangers could be totally integrated in a computer recording setup - with all its features accessible on the computer screen, tweakable and saveable in a computer recording package like Cubase.

For me, it would be dead easy to make modern style music with my PSR-3000 if it would completely integrate with my recording software! I realise this wouldn't necessarily help with live performances though, unless of course you used a laptop alongside it on stage.

At the moment, trying to get my 3000 to work properly with Cubase is like trying to stick an American plug into a British socket - just not made for each other!

Carrie

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#120152 - 07/28/06 01:51 AM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
adimatis Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1159
Loc: Oradea, RO
As you know the US sales are only about 5% of the European market.
That already determines what will be in a KB for the most part.
Obviously they will listen to the Europeans before the US. Sad but true.

being european, i am not said.

but is only partially true. do you think yamaha, or roland or any other manufacutrer really have to talk with the musicians on the forums to realize what they should put into their arrangers?!
i am sure they have pretty good ideas! but they need to "listen" to the buyiers, so they do.
anyway, they'll never put all the best features, or the total of them into a single unit. that unit would then be their last model!!

what about us, people on the forums, trying to create a kind of styles data base. i am sure alot of us here have the ability and talent to actually create styles, right from scratch. if everyone who loves hip-hop for instance would contribute with one original style, soon, we would have several (different) hip hop styles. especially since you can do that pretty easily using a good soft seq like cubase, and with the arrangers that are now on the market - and the future models - couldn' t too hard.
and so on...
_________________________
Yamaha S770, Studio One 3, EMU 0404USB, ESI, ATH, Dell. And others.

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#120153 - 07/28/06 03:30 AM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
kbrkr Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/19/02
Posts: 2866
Loc: Tampa, FL
Squeak,

Your so right.. I wish the manufacturers would, especially Yamaha, would allow for more create style creation within their top arrangers. For me personally, the audience and the dance floor drives what I play. Some of the newer Alternative Rock and Hard rock and some hip hop is just not danceable. Therefore, It won't be played unless you are doing a show or concert.

With that said, we need an arranger keyboard that can adapt and be flexible enough to create and play any genre according to the player's needs instead of his location and wallet size. I would love to see a feature whereby you feed a midi file to the arranger style section and the keyboard then makes many variations; similar to the cover function on some keyboard but more powerful.

------------------
Al Giordano
www.al-giordano.com

Tyros 2, Yamaha P-250, Korg Triton Extreme 76, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums
_________________________
Al

Pa4x - LD Systems Maui 28 - Mackie Thumps

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#120154 - 07/28/06 03:42 AM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
Carrie-uk Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 168
Loc: England
I'd like to be able to bring a bunch of different styles from a given genre up on a computer screen at the same time and copy/paste different bits of them into new styles. I'd also like to be able to include real-time effects such as EQ and filter tweaks during playback. The same goes for sounds. In my opinion, you must have the capability of real-time tweaks for performing modern music.

Save all of my created styles and sounds on the computer in a library and transfer them onto the keyboard whenever needed.

XGWorks was headed in this direction but it never lasted, sadly.

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#120155 - 07/28/06 04:25 AM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
Nick G Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 1107
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Ide like to give my input on this topic.

I am nearly 23,

I have extensively played on a T2 and a G70 and alot of other top arranger boards from the past.

To me, the styles on the G70 and T2 are perfect, there is great variety, they are extremely traditional but also sound modern in a sence.

The instruments / voices are now at a point where they nearly cant get any better. i love playing synth dance techo and all that stuff as well as latin / spanish guitar, ballads, classical, jazz etc. its all possible nowdays.

For someone to own a T2 or a G70 and say "its not modern enough" I really think that statment is weak and gives a sense of either lazyness or being un-creative.

By saying Lazy I mean, an arranger workstation comes with a beat / style sequencer, there is no excuse now for not being able to have the right style u want. The manufacturers have thrown the best quality sounds and features at us to be able to make our music and customize what ever we want.

When you buy a keyboard ie, G70 or T2, the preset styles are not the end of the rd...
they are basically there as starting guides in a sense.

If I was some big shot at roland and created the G70 and I had customers saying "your keyboard isnt modern enough" ide say "go and explore and be creative, use the sounds given and put them together to make your style of music".

I love most styles of music modern and traditional, and I can garantee ANY beat or song that is available, I can produce on my cheap PSR 3000. It may not sound 100% right becuase of the quality of the sounds but with the G70 and T2 sounds you can get EXTREMELY close, in some cases even BETTER!

No offence at all to you squeek, im not taking a stab at anyone, I am mainly speaking in general to all owners of Arranger keyboards.

Cheers

Nick

[This message has been edited by Nick G (edited 07-28-2006).]
_________________________
Yamaha PSR SX900 / Roland G70 / Roland BK9 / Korg PA700 / Roland GW-8L / Roland Fantom O6

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#120156 - 07/28/06 04:58 AM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
Starkeeper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 1704
Loc: Toronto
This is a little off thread.
I own a PSR550 and tried creating a style. This is my first attempt, so I need to dig a little deeper, but I found it very frustrating.
1) You have to use an existing style, but I want the style to have 4 measures not 1 or 2.
2) Since I am using an existing style, it would not let me change the voice.
3) I am creating this style for a specific song, with chord changes, but all the chords must be C major. So I have to convert every chord inversion I'm using to C. Phew.
Hey Squeak,
You mentioned a while back that your were using software (that was really good) to create sequences, what were you using?
Back on thread.
I'm an old guy too (58), but I rarely use the onboard styles. I play contemporary christian songs, which would use ballad, rock, and pop type styles. I don't play dance music.
To create a more modern arranger, the keyboard makers would have to create those Hip Hop, R & B, type styles. If they added a few more "modern" drum kits, they could satisfy both markets.
Starkeeper
_________________________
I play Roland EM20 and Yamaha PSR550

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#120157 - 07/28/06 05:16 AM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
Nick,
While I agree with some of your points--there are some I do not. With arrangers you "can" do more modern music--however, there are limitations, and even using current arrangers, there will be a noticable difference with modern styles done on a pro arranger and those done on modern synths.

when it comes to using acoustic voices--there were many times I felt the arranger department had the synth world beat "hands down". That's changed now because companies like Yamaha are putting the mega voices on the synths--and I wouldn't be surprised to find Super Articulation voices on the next MOtif That seems like the next logical step for Yamaha.

However, when it comes to "synth" sounds which are "huge" in modern music--well the synths take the cake here--they're synths, that's what they do. Also one part of modern music--be it dance, rap, hip hop, or whatever "absolutely must have" modern drum sounds. The drum sounds change "constantly" in these genres--as do the sounds.

I really wouldn't call it being lazy. Sure you can tweek the living crap out of an arranger, but you can only go so far with them because of the "sound set" and other limitations. Also these styles really work best in a "groove box" set up. The synths are working more like groove boxes now. Where you lay your killer tracks, then you start switching patterns live, change parts, grap a knob, and go nuts. Arrangers just aren't quite there yet for this.

Squeak
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#120158 - 07/28/06 05:34 AM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
I've aleways found the midi2style conversion feature in the MZ2000 to be particularly good Squeak. I wonder how the style creation tools on the G70 and T2 compare. I'm sure they are a lot deeper in some aspects, but for actual midi to style conversion, the simplicity yet functionality of the MZ works very well for me.

I know there are definite advantages in having everything "inside a box" sometimes, especially playing live, but OTOH, I find doing this stuff in FL Studio to be a lot better organized and faster than in my Motif ES, especially when I start using external samples.

Another Q I have is .. why don't I hear the same drum kits and bass sounds in a top flight Yamaha arranger that I hear on the Motif ? The rest of the instruments sound very similar between the two, and perhaps better on the T2 in some cases.

AJ
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AJ

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#120159 - 07/28/06 05:42 AM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
Posted by Bluezplayer:

--------------------------------------------
Another Q I have is .. why don't I hear the same drum kits and bass sounds in a top flight Yamaha arranger that I hear on the Motif ? The rest of the instruments sound very similar between the two, and perhaps better on the T2 in some cases.
--------------------------------------------

AJ,
SPOT ON MY FRIEND! Exactly what I'm ALWAYS thinking. How hard would it be to put the same drums--both acoustic and electronic on the arrangers, as well as some of the good basses. Why do they choose to keep that separate? My goodness could you imagine if the PSR-3000 or the T2 had the Motif's drum kits, and some of its bass sounds? Holy Mary you could do some damage with that Wouldn't that be awsome to take a R&B type style on the PSR-3000 and use one of the R&B kits found on the MOtif--Whew smack my arse and call me Willy! I would have bought the PSR-3000 the day I demoed it, if those kits and some of the basses were there. Just the Motif's acoustic and electronic kits, plus a few of the synth basses would do wonders in bringing a more modern sound to the styles--especially when you start to re-voice them. Ahhhhh got me dreaming again. It's back off to La La Land.

I agree with you about the MZ too. That was a very useful feature. What I also really liked about the MZ was the voice editing. That puppy was deep--I had to take a step back for a minute when I started editing voices on it. I remember saying "holy sh--t" a lot, totally shocked at the results--especially when I made a flute sound on it comparable to Yammies Sweet Flute

Squeak


[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-28-2006).]

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-28-2006).]
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#120160 - 07/28/06 06:17 AM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
tony mads usa Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 14376
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
Another factor that I don't think anyone has touched on here is that for the most part, the younger players - 30's and even 40's - are playing with bands and don't need to have an arranger kb ... however, as age and time might dictate, many of the players in their 40's and older have given up on the band scene and all it entails and have gone solo ... now they find themselves playing to a more 'mature' audience and the music does not feature 'hip-hop' or 'techno' dance styles, but they do like more 'modern' versions of traditional styles ... I think this is evidenced also in recognizing how many of the older 'pop/rock' stars, (Manilow/Bolton/Stewart)in trying to continue or revitalize their careers have gone to recording standards from the "Great American Songbook", or music from the 'doo-wop' era of the 50's and early 60's ...

I have said before, that I think it would be easy for manufacturers to develop a 'menu-driven' kb, with styles and sounds, and even options (internal recording/sequencers/etc.) downloadable (at a fee of course) from the internet, so that we each could have our own 'personally designed' board ... BUT, that would no doubt have a negative affect on their ability to intruduce the "egg maker and drink holder" in their NEW model, and let's face it, manufacturers are all about sales (and rightfully so - they are not the Red Cross !!!) ...
I guess we have to live with the fact that only toilet paper serves the same purpose for all of us ... for everything else, we will have to live with compromise ...
t.
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t. cool

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#120161 - 07/28/06 09:41 AM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5345
Loc: English Riviera, UK
All top end arrangers have the capability to add new sounds or edit existing ones, a drum kit is just another sound to the keyboard, (The drum sound produced is determined by which key is depressed) so just load in another drum kit that you like the sound of.
The onboard drum editor allows you to alter the overall sound of the kit, each individual instrument or even change the instrument, (A good way is to mix and match, IE Standard kit replace bass drum with one from the jazz kit etc) although you will probably need to alter the attack, decay, reverb etc, to get the kit balanced.
If you have a sampler or you can load in samples, then there are plenty of free drum samples on magazine cover discs, which you can either use to make up your own drum kit or mix and match with an existing drum kit.
From the above you can see that you can achieve probably 95% of what a workstation can do, but it will just take longer and you will need to set it up before hand.
Workstations have the advantage of making things easy to edit, but take a considerable amount of time to set up, consequently your gig has to be predetermined. (Audience requests just arent on)
Top end arrangers also have style editors. (or allow you to export the style as a midi, allowing you to edit it in a sequencer, and then import it back into the keyboard as a style)

Bill
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English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#120162 - 07/28/06 01:06 PM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
Abacus,

Consider this..., apparently the pro arrangers (Yamaha Tyros for example) are worhty enough to have their signature voices carried over to the synth line (MOtif's).

So why shouldn't it go the other way? Why does it just go one way? Isn't the T2 worthy of the drum kits (for example) from the MOtif--since it's a shared opinion of many users that the Motif (and other synths) have killer acoustic and electronic drums.

Should it be acceptable to say that only the Synths are worthy of sharing voices, and the arrangers are not?

Sure you can edit drum kits on some arrangers, but you can only go so far without having to edit and import samples. Isn't one of the ideas of an arranger is for the "out of the box" experience?

Just another way to look at it.

Squeak
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GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#120163 - 07/28/06 01:28 PM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
Craig_UK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 914
Loc: UK
Squeak good point above.
Does the Korg PA range have the Triton drum kits in them, or the new Roland E80 the kits from the Fantom range?
I'd love to see the next Yamaha have piano sounds in either from the S90ES or one of their electronic pianos, this would save me time having to create ones myself, although I must say having spent plenty of time editing the sounds, the results you can create with the editing software are quite amazing. I'd have never imagined the amount of depth, warmth and bottom end you can give to a grand piano sound.

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#120164 - 07/28/06 01:39 PM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
Doesn't the G-70 have a "Fantom X" piano? If that's the case then kudo's to Roland for sharing sounds in "both" directions

Squeak
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GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#120165 - 07/28/06 04:24 PM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
Squeak,

When I do the G70 - T2 side by side demo, I'm going to be looking a lot at the individual sounds, but I also want to spend much of the time listening to the styles. I want to not only hear the the styles with all of their instrumentation, but also take them down to just the drum and bass sounds only.

Although many of the styles in my PA80 sound rather good to me when I have most of the parts turned on, when I play just the bass and drums from them, for my ears, I feel that the drums kits are good, but that the acoustic / electric bass sounds aren't. The synth basses however, are very good.

AJ
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AJ

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#120166 - 07/28/06 08:49 PM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Starkeeper,
(Squeak , sorry for going off topic)
you need to check out your OMB stylemaker functions more thoroughly, you can do some pretty amazing things, including extending
1 or 2 measures to 4. Plus you can create a style track/part library , be it for your psr styles or for use in omb. They both use .sty files.
Using OMB as a realtime arranger is not it's only use, it's also handy for creating styles for a psr.
If you want to discuss it further, the software arranger forum might be more appropriate.
best wishes
Rikki
http://www.synthzone.com/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Software+Arrangers+|AMP|+Softsynths&number=43&DaysPrune=100&LastLogin=
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Starkeeper:
[B]This is a little off thread.
I own a PSR550 and tried creating a style. This is my first attempt, so I need to dig a little deeper, but I found it very frustrating.
1) You have to use an existing style, but I want the style to have 4 measures not 1 or
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best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#120167 - 07/28/06 11:58 PM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5345
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Hi Squeak
I see what you are getting at, but you have forgotten one very important point, and that is the boards you refer to are hardware based and so suffer from the limitations that this technology brings, particularly with memory.
As an example
A manufacture purchases a consignment of 100Mb ROM Chips, (These are where the OS and sounds are programmed in) and to keep costs down they will be used in both Workstations and Arranger keyboards.
The design and marketing team decide that for the Workstation 50Mb will be used for sounds, 30Mb will be used for Mega voices, 15Mb for high end Drum kits and 5Mb for the OS, the Rom chip is now full and nothing more can be added to it. (Additional memory can be added for user sounds, if the customer decides to purchase it)
The design and marketing team decide that for the Arranger 50Mb will be used for sounds, 30Mb for Mega voices, 15Mb for SA voices and 5Mb for the OS, the Rom chip is now full and nothing more can be added. (As with the Workstation additional memory can be added for User sounds at the customers expense)
As you can see from the above it is not possible to fit everything onto one chip, and so they have to choose the items they think will sell to a particular market, if they did increase the capacity of the Rom chip, this would incur greater expense, which would then have to be passed on to the customer. (Rom chips are a lot more expensive then Ram chips)
Computer based systems dont suffer from this problem as all the info is stored on the hard drive, and loaded into Ram at start-up. (Ram is cheap so if they need to fit more, the actual extra cost to the customer will also be small)
Hope this helps.

Bill
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English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#120168 - 08/10/06 04:22 AM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
Heinrich Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/99
Posts: 60
Hi squeak,

you know I am right with you here. I tried a lot of arrangers in terms of: Does it have contemporary styles and the sound it needs for them. The only arranger I found suitable was the pa1x. Lots of contemporary music is built up by putting together waves and arrangers can only copy a feeling of this kind of loop music but not really catch it. Most hiphop and R?Bstuff sounds ridicu8lous anyway on an aaranger. What I found most annoying is that all the arranger keyboard companies are trying to fit the same bill. Is it really so different - country styles from korgt or roland? Not really! Why the hell dont they offer keyboards for different target groups - more contemporary (with arp functions) and more traditional. They are all heading in the same direction and this is quite boring!

my 2 c.

Best regards

Heinrich

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#120169 - 08/10/06 05:21 AM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
Jerryghr Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 1497
Loc: Buffalo, NY
"Statistically" the 40+ age group has more "Disposable Income" as compared to my age group (30's) and groups lower than me, and are more likely to be able to afford one."

It is not the +40 crowd that is driving the SUVs, have the lowered cars with the large custom wheels, the big screen plasma TVs, the crotch rockets, all terrain vehicles, sound systems that rock the neighborhood, Ipods, Game boys, video cell phones, go to the tanning parlors and health clubs........etc. None of these things are not very inexpensive
.

Regards,

Jerry



[This message has been edited by Jerryghr (edited 08-10-2006).]

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#120170 - 08/11/06 06:43 AM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
Heinrich Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/99
Posts: 60
Damn well said, Jerry - lets put it like that: Kids and teenagers have a rising amount of money at their disposal (?) even if parents money is tight. As soon as you have kids money seems to run from you. (You wont have time either to do gigs unless some bedroom music composing). As soon as they stand financially on their own feet, you might encounter a late life of luxury. So: arrangers people under 30 and over 60. Right? ;-))

Heinrich

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#120171 - 08/11/06 12:28 PM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by Craig_UK:
Squeak good point above.
Does the Korg PA range have the Triton drum kits in them, or the new Roland E80 the kits from the Fantom range?
I'd love to see the next Yamaha have piano sounds in either from the S90ES or one of their electronic pianos, this would save me time having to create ones myself, although I must say having spent plenty of time editing the sounds, the results you can create with the editing software are quite amazing. I'd have never imagined the amount of depth, warmth and bottom end you can give to a grand piano sound.



hi craig, the PA1X does...they have included with the pro (as it has the hard drive) fully sampled live drum kits, 16 of them in fact (and these can be swapped into the factory styles), that are available for the triton series, they even have them set up with great styles...additional to the standard factory ones...
just thought i'd mention it
dennis

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#120172 - 08/11/06 01:21 PM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Well, squeak, I think the problem is two-fold.

Firstly, you have the problem of sound-set. As already stated, ROM is not infinite, nor cheap, and hiphop and rap styles change so fast that no manufacturer can keep up affordably. But samplers don't suffer from this problem, they can have HUGE memory RAM amounts, and often have very advanced filters and dsp for tweaking.

BUT....... their weakness is slow load-up times. When, oh when, are the big three going to bring out ANY sampling module or keyboard with USB2 or Firewire on it? 512MB of memory transfer is an eyeblink to a computer, and ten minutes to the fastest samplers, completely unusable, live.

Secondly, and most problematically, the main problem is style creation. For something as fluid as the hiphop scene, a constant supply of fresh styles is going to be the only thing to keep young rappers happy.

BUT........ until someone brings out a copy protection scheme for styles, what is the incentive for a young, hip style creator to develop them, when they are being traded around and given away like mp3s? Sure, the ROM styles of a new arranger get due care and attention, but what happens after that? The manufacturer makes his money from the style creation off the sales of the arranger, but once he has sold it, he makes very little further money from continued style creation. He sells a few, but then everyone trades them around, and the money is gone.......

What is needed is a combination soundset and style that has hardware protection keyed into it, somewhat like the system UAD and TC Works use for new plug-ins that run on their hardware cards. In other words, you buy the sound-set (the drumkits, bass sounds, voice tweaks) AND the style as a package, AND it is keyed to the unique sn# of your arranger's motherboard. So it's not possible to copy it and give it away to your friends.

You can still tweak it further, and use the sound-set for your own styles, or adapt older styles to use the new sound-set, but you can't give it away....

The style creator makes a lot of money (at least, enough for him to make it worthwhile to do more) guaranteeing a continued supply of fresh beats. Everybody wins........

Until the problem of copyright protection is addressed, it is unlikely that we are going to see a lot of development in contemporary styles.
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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