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#120142 - 07/27/06 02:00 PM Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
Guys I'm not going to start any wars here--so please don't be offended by anything I say, but "we" find at times that we have to come to "reason", and just "accept" some things.

I for one would "LOVE" a professional modern style based arranger keyboard (oh the dreams)... However, after coming down from "la la land", and reality settles in--I know the likelyhood of this happening (or at least anytime soon) is quite slim.

Now this is from the horses mouth bascially (from speaking to reps over the years). I haven't touched on the issue because it could be sensitive to some here, but it's the "truth", and hey if the reps read this and call me a "whistle blower" then so be it--because I'm going to whistle my ass off

There is a REASON why there aren't modern style based arrangers. It's not that they can't make them because they clearly can--the Original Yamaha DJX is obvious proof of that. What is often not discussed here is the "fact" that the top 3 arranger makers don't make the modern arranger because of the "targeted market" for the curent flagship arranger keyboards.

This is no joke either. The targeted market for these high end arrangers (I kid you not) is the 40+ age group. This is why the styles are "more traditional". You may ask.. hmmmm why would the companies target these age groups.... Well that's simple. Here's a few reasons.

"Statistically" the 40+ age group has more "Disposable Income" as compared to my age group (30's) and groups lower than me, and are more likely to be able to afford one.

The 40+ age group includes those individuals who have retired--thus with pensions, social security, ect in turn having more disposable income. (again that's based on statistics) They also do research based on not just age (but also take into consideration the odds of children being grown, mortages paid, car notes paid-and they figure that into the data as well).

Also because of the targeted market a "modern arranger" bearing today's prices truly would not sell (especially to the targeted market). In turn the makers would literally be shooting themselves in the foot because by doing so they have just possibly lost a large part of their market. You can't really be mad at them... I don't like it, but hey that's business.

Here's a good example:

Lets say tomorrow the (TOP 3) makers all released a new "flagship" arranger keyboard--priced according to the current market. However, these new flagships have a "twist". While they will have more modern styles such as hip hop, rap, and so on--lets say for the sake of arguement they add "tradtional styles", but and a BIG BUT the traditional styles they add are tradtional by "today's" standards.

What do I mean by that? Simple-take a traditional Country Shuffle from your current arranger (many like it-why-it's classic-it's what you grew up on). However, on the new arranger it's a Country Shuffle, but not the Country Shuffle "you" grew up on. It's a "MODERN" Country Shuffle--which is not what you grew up on. There are some di-hard country lovers who don't like the new country, and probably wouldn't care for these styles

Take rock styles for example. Right now many like the traditional "Rock-n-Roll". Well lets say the new arranger has Rock, but not the tradtional rock you know and grew up on. Lets say the new arranger has "Rock" that sounds like--Green Day, Pearl Jam, Bush, Live, and other more modern rockers. Would you like that?

How many of you would flock to this arranger, and drop your current ones? I think it's safe to assume that many wouldn't. That's not a bad thing either. You didn't grow up on these styles of music.

Oddly enough I think it's also safe to say they wouldn't attract us synth player either. Here's why.., believe it or not, there are a lot of us synth players who love arranger keyboards, and don't talk trash on them. I can tell you from my experience (and talking with my synth buddies), that one HUGE turn off for us in the pro arranger market is "drum roll" the PRICE!

I can go online and buy a "brand new" Korg Triton Extreme 61 key model for $1,899. This is clearly a pro keyboard, and would give me great results in making modern music, and it's like $1,600 less than the current pro arrangers.

The truth is "we" can control the price market on them, and it's really simple. Don't fall into the tricky advertising. When the new models come out, simply "don't" jump to upgrade at that moment. Give it some time. The makers will be forced to drop prices to try and re-coup loss.

Here's a little humor on the topic of price control. Lets say two weeks from now Yamaha releases the new Tyros 3. This model has everything your Tyros 2 has, but "hold the phone", the Tyros 3 also makes "bacon and eggs", and has a "cup holder".

They advertise in ways to make you think you "must" have this new model. They want you to think that if your T2 doesn't make bacon and eggs, and you don't have a place for your drink, you're losing out big time.

I know that's a little drastic as a comparison, but I'm sure you get my point

Anyways if I offend any of you in the 40+ age group I apologize. I've come to respect so many of you here on this forum--and I'm a strong believer that "With Age Comes Wisdom". So I'm not singling you out.

Squeak



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-27-2006).]
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#120143 - 07/27/06 02:19 PM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
TwoNuts Offline
Member

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 430
Loc: Vancouver, Washington. USA
Hey Squeak,

You make a very good case for your point. I agree with it on whole, however I feel that some in this 40+ age group you mention (which I begrudgingly admit to being) will argue that they do not have as much disposable income as statistic would show. Fixed income is not always that great, because it is FIXED INCOME. The bills keep goin higher, but your income does not. (not anything of note anyway) I fully understand where you are coming from and I think that it is a great observation. The music of the generations is exactly that generational. I would like to see more options for the Green Day types of music and a little more Hip Hop options (forget about the cRAP though) for the occasion where you want to make someone happy with that type of tune.

Anyway just wanted to say that I like where your comin' from with this post.


Regards,

Dennis L. Almond
aka...TwoNuts
_________________________
Regards,

Dennis L. Almond
aka...TwoNuts

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#120144 - 07/27/06 02:30 PM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
Dennis,
Thanks for the support I figured some would argue on the "disposable income" issue. However, I personally would love to see their data, and how they came to that statistic. It's possible they get the info from those who actually return the "surveys" we get with our warranty cards... Anyone actually fill those things out?

I know I personally don't have disposable income, and if I did--I'd probably dig a hole 20 feet deep, then burn the map!

I myself notice that there are quite a few in the 40+ group that also perform as well. These individuals have the upperhand in my opinion because they'll see a return on their purchase.

My age group "statistically" has "both" parents working--and we try to fit 50 hours in a 24 hour day I don't perform anymore either. Hell I'm even going back to college this fall (that's going to be fun).

Anyways thanks for understanding.

Squeak
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#120145 - 07/27/06 03:08 PM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
bruno123 Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 4912
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
Can you imagine being one of the manufactures and having to decide who to please. The answer is they will never be able to please everyone on the list, it is not possible.
I wont second-guess why they favor some over others, but the answer has to be in software. The same keyboard available with styles and sounds to fit the buyers needs. A dream, yes. I think it is possible.

Squeak, it must be frustrating not to have what you want from these keyboards but keep the faith its all coming. It will proberly get here when your in your 40's ha ha ha

John C.

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#120146 - 07/27/06 03:15 PM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
--------------------------------------------
Squeak, it must be frustrating not to have what you want from these keyboards but keep the faith its all coming. It will proberly get here when your in your 40's ha ha
--------------------------------------------

That's funny You're probably right though. When I'm in my 40's rockin out to a keyboard with styles "I" grew up on, my kids will probably be laughing at me

Squeak
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#120147 - 07/27/06 05:38 PM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
wrinkles303 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/24/02
Posts: 422
Loc: worthington ,ohio
great post

that's how bob fletcher made millions
here in florida for over 30 years. he knew what his customers would want and knew how to make them want it. his customers
were over 50 had "disposable" income. now
that generation is dying off. we are the next generation except we won't pay $15,000.00
plus for an organ BUT will pay up to $10,000.00 for a single keyboard arranger set up. because it has "that style,voice,sound or new Widgit" that we have to have. funny...how things really don't change.
"and the beat goes on"

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#120148 - 07/27/06 06:31 PM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
renig Offline
Member

Registered: 02/20/00
Posts: 643
Loc: Canada
Ahhh . . . the old 'wants and needs' thing. Convince people that what they 'want' is actually what they 'need' and you too can make millions, I guess.

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#120149 - 07/27/06 07:41 PM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
Eric, B Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/15/99
Posts: 2028
Loc: Ventura, Ca, USA
Squeak,
I hear ya loud and clearly, but let me help you to understand a couple of points:

As you know the US sales are only about 5% of the European market.
That already determines what will be in a KB for the most part.
Obviously they will listen to the Europeans before the US. Sad but true.

I'm also on the German Yamaha Forum and Yamaha did sit down with German forum members and discussed what they wanted.
The Tyros was the result and many features were implemented.

Even though I'm 40, I like more modern music too.
In Europe the target market is not 40+.
A lot of teens are on the German Yamaha forum owning a T1 or T2.
The membership is much larger than the Synthzone membership. And that's for Yamaha alone.

Coming from the 9000Pro I was very excited when I found out that the T2 actually "DID" have a much more modern feel in its styles.
It might not be what you are looking for, but we are moving in the right direction and I'm very happy with my board.
In addition the European market is flooded with third party styles that address the top charts. I have many of those and am quite happy.

Of course I feel your frustrations for the shortcomings of the US market.
But as you can see in my post it is not quite as you stated looking at it world wide.

I hope this helps.

Eric
_________________________
Genos, PSR-S970, TC Helicon VoiceLive3, Mackie 802-VLZ3 Mixer, 2 Bose L1 Pro16, Electro-Voice ZXA1 Subwoofer

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#120150 - 07/27/06 11:17 PM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
Taike Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 2814
Loc: Xingyi, Guizhou (China)
I, on the other hand, wouldn't know what to do with Hip Hop, Rap and the likes. Of course, that's because I'm not into that kind of music. I prefer a song where the melody is the main part and not the beat. But one can always buy styles, right?
My likes in music have never been on par with those in my age group. Give me the old stuff any time.
That doesn't mean that I don't want your wish to come true. We all want to have what makes us happy after all.




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Khoi huk ngam sud tee huk kon diow.
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最猖獗的人权侵犯 者讨论其他国 家的人权局势而忽略本国严重的人权 问题是何等伪善。

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#120151 - 07/28/06 12:35 AM Re: Modern Style Arrangers (Reality Check!!!)
Carrie-uk Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 168
Loc: England
Personally, I'd just be pleased as punch if one of the top arrangers could be totally integrated in a computer recording setup - with all its features accessible on the computer screen, tweakable and saveable in a computer recording package like Cubase.

For me, it would be dead easy to make modern style music with my PSR-3000 if it would completely integrate with my recording software! I realise this wouldn't necessarily help with live performances though, unless of course you used a laptop alongside it on stage.

At the moment, trying to get my 3000 to work properly with Cubase is like trying to stick an American plug into a British socket - just not made for each other!

Carrie

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