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#119428 - 09/05/06 09:10 AM Re: Let's talk about Rhythm
keysvocalssax Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 845
Loc: Miami FL nov-may/Lakeville CT ...
what is generally regarded as a musician's 'time' is not
about where they come in, go out, divide bars, or any other technical failures..those are amateur shortcomings.

what is meant is how steady or unsteady the tempo is..do they drag, speed up, or some of each...this is distinctly
different from their "rhythmic feel" or lack of it..and

among even great musicians there is variation between those who like to play right on the beat, just ahead, or just behind.a great rhythm section needs more than good musicianship, it needs unanimity of beat-feel, too.
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Miami Mo

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#119429 - 09/05/06 12:02 PM Re: Let's talk about Rhythm
captain Russ Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7285
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
Good explanation/understanding of "musician's time". "The Swing's the Thing"!


Russ

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#119430 - 09/05/06 12:12 PM Re: Let's talk about Rhythm
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Wow, lots of good tips, observations, and advice on improving your sense of timing and getting more comfortable with less familiar time signatures. However, the point I was trying to make was distinguishing between timing errors and playing rhythmically. I alluded to some performances that have been offered here that were not played rhythmically. Things like 'leading' or rushing the beat, but in an exagerated way, giving a sense of not playing completely in time. Like trying to effect a forced syncopation that you don't really hear or feel. Makes the playing sound very amatuerish like someone playing a pop tune note for note from the sheet music (and rushing it).

I don't know if one can be trained out of this as I believe that these people hear it as being correct.

When Captain Russ talks about "in the pocket" being a beautiful thing, believe me, it is. You can play with a group every night for a month, be well-rehearsed and playing "tight" every night, and still maybe only experience that "special" groove once during the course of the month.....but man, is it worth it.

My wife, bless her, is a competent pianist and can play practically anything you put in front of her. However, listening to her play is like listening to a metronome and I'm certain that she has never played a single note in her entire life that was not written down. She played flute (her primary instrument) well enough to play with the Philadelphia summer orchestra (that's pretty much the orchestra without the first chairs) while she was in grad school (also at Temple, Robert G., luckily, not a music major).

Some examples of playing "in the pocket"; the Count Basie band, especially during the Joe Williams years. A good part of that sound was Freddy Green thumping away on that rhythm guitar...you felt him more than heard him. I remember an interview with some famous alumnus of the band who said, "if you want to play for Basie, you better have that rhythm". I think I know what he meant.

Other examples would be some of those great "fatback" organ trios of the 60's and 70's like Brother Jack McDuff, and Richard "Groove" Holmes. Also some of the great groups put together by Carlos Santana.

Anyway, as others have already observed, it's not so much about time as it is feel. And it really is true....you either have it or you don't. Fortunately, most of us do; it just needs fine-tuning.

chas
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"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#119431 - 09/05/06 12:30 PM Re: Let's talk about Rhythm
freddynl Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/17/99
Posts: 1150
Loc: netherlands
Interesting topic, thks for bringing up.

All good suggestions.
To add Some exercise suggestions;

Timing:
Play along with basic midi tracks.
If possible record and LISTEN to your playing.

Groove:
Write your own drum tracks in a sequencer or
drum machine.
If your drum composition with playback automaticly causes you to tap your feet or causes other rhytmic movements, you've done well.
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Keyboards/Sound Units: Kurzweil 2600S, Roland VR-760, Acces Virus C, Roland G-800, Akai AX60, Minimoog, Machine Drum, Roland R8-M, mediastation x-76

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#119432 - 09/05/06 02:47 PM Re: Let's talk about Rhythm
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by freddynl:
If your drum composition with playback automaticly causes you to tap your feet or causes other rhytmic movements, you've done well.





ha, best explanation I've heard so far.
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"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#119433 - 09/05/06 04:20 PM Re: Let's talk about Rhythm
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 12800
Loc: Penn Yan, NY
Quote:
Originally posted by Scottyee:
One way to help improve one's rhythm is by dancing.


Well, not in MY case!
Dancing actually scares me. I'm serious..... I have terrific rhythm ..................... everywhere BUT my feet ! ( Unless I'm at the drums ! )
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No longer monitoring this forum. Please visit www.daveboydmusic.com for contact info

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#119434 - 09/05/06 05:53 PM Re: Let's talk about Rhythm
keysvocalssax Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 845
Loc: Miami FL nov-may/Lakeville CT ...
Quote:
Originally posted by keysvocalssax:
One helpful hint that is magic, not only for time, for phrasing ,for coherent ideas, but for timbre and pitch is this: While you play and/or sing, imagine yourself playing and/or singing the next phrase before you actually execute it. Of course you will overlap, and you will lose concentration until you get it down.
Try this to prove it to yourself: Record yourself playing and/or singing a familiar tune, and improvise on it for a chorus or two. Do this in you usual intuitive fashion. Then recordthe same tune while pre-imagining yourself playing
and/or singing each phrase as you play.
[/B]


Has anyone tried this yet, and if so, what did youfind?



------------------
Miami Mo
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Miami Mo

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#119435 - 09/05/06 05:58 PM Re: Let's talk about Rhythm
kbrkr Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/19/02
Posts: 2866
Loc: Tampa, FL
I always have trouble with the song, The Wanderer when I'm playing drums. The beat I play is a 4/4 shuffle, but the background vocals that go Wah, Wah Wah fall on the offbeat. So when I sing and play at the same time, I really have to concentrate or I screw one or the other up. Otherwiese I have perfect timing and Rythem. Go Figure?

I was taught to sit at the Piano and improvise whilst I sing and/or Scat over the soloing. This helps ryhthm, timing, and improv skills.
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Al

Pa4x - LD Systems Maui 28 - Mackie Thumps

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#119436 - 09/05/06 06:37 PM Re: Let's talk about Rhythm
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10427
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
Quote:
Originally posted by MrsMusic:
Scottyee, nice to meet you.


Nice to meet you too. Welcome to Synthzone. For whatever reason, the SZ membership is primarily made up of men, so it's great to have 2 more women now join our forum, and interestingly enough, BOTH of you joining SZ on the very SAME day: 08/31/06. I look forward to yours & Mai Linh 's female perspective on arranger kbs & music.

Quote:
Originally posted by MrsMusic:
Are there any other teachers here?
If so, what ages do you teach, and what subject?

I'm a part time music teacher (keyboards & voice) and music consultant, with my student ages ranging from teen to adult.

Again, welcome aboard MrsMusic.

Scott
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