This is not about any individual so don't come roaring back....unless you think the shoe fits. Occasionally someone will post a tune that may have what some members believe is (or politely describe as) a 'timing' problem. In fact, most of the time it's not a timing problem so much as a rhythm problem. A timing problem is when you and the background tracks don't end up at the same place at the same time. Rhythm, although related, is more difficult to explain. That's because it's more about feeling than exact mathmatical spacing between notes. Most of us can tell who has it and who doesn't. Listening to someone play who doesn't have a strong sense of rhythm is like watching geeks dance....like holding a talent show at a Star Trek convention.

The reason I mention this distinction is because a person can be taught to improve timing but if "you ain't got rhythm", forget it. The other problem with rhythm is that the person who is rhythmically challenged can't hear this deficiency, especially if their 'timing' is passable. I was about to say that this "problem" is less noticable in certain types of music, but upon reflection, that's probably not true either.

Anyone familiar with the studio world knows that there are not only "first call" musicians but "first call" rhythm sections as well. There is a reason for this. Most studio quality musicians not only play in time but also play rhythmicaly but some rhythm units just have that special in-the-pocket groove that is so hard to define...you just know it when you hear it. I'm sure most jazz, rock, and funk players know what I mean.

I don't mean to sound harsh or discouraging, but if you don't have it, there is little chance that you will be successful as a professional. Therefore, if you have career aspirations and nobody is telling you the truth, they could actually be doing you a disservice. Or maybe not.

chas

Great topic. I totally identify with your comments and do not take offense to them. I'm one of those who have always had problems with rhythm (goes back 40 years). During all the years I studied piano and some organ, my instructors always were all over me for timing problems. Fact is at a young age I always seemed to be in a hurry to learn to play the piece. This problem has come back to haunt me time and again. In the last couple of years I've become real aware of this problem and have been making a real effort to correct it. It's not necessarily easy and I for one always have known I don't fall into the class of a natural musician.

What is helping me to correct this problem is that I'm doing some voice work with a singing instructor. By working out songs and having him coach me I'm making progress. I'm playing 4 or 5 gigs per month and knows maybe I would be playing a lot more if I had worked this out years ago. I'm just glad I have a day job otherwise if I depended on music as a full time pro, I'd probably be in the bread line at the local halfway house.



[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 09-04-2006).]

One way to help improve one's rhythm is by dancing. Rhythm is felt & often can't be intellectually learned. For example the feel of jazz swing (aka: swung 8th notes?!) cannot be accurately notated in manuscript. You have to feel the groove. That said, classical rhythm typically emphasizes 1 while popular music more often accents the backbeat: 2 & 4. - Scott

Scott, I almost agree with you but there is SOME intellect going on there. Example, I think that I have an excellent (some would say exquisite ) sense of rhythm, yet I struggle with odd meters such as 5/4. I had to learn "take five" by rote, and even after playing it for 25?? years I still have to concentrate, especially soloing. It just doesn't feel natural to me. I suspect that's a combination of poor training and a cultural bias towards (and familiarity with) 4/4 (and 2/4, 3/4, 6/8, etc.

On your other point, if I have to dance to improve my sense of rhythm, I'm finished (I'm guessing Boo, Captain Russ, TonyMads, also, as I don't know any jazz musicians that can dance worth squat ). Anyway, gotta go check on what kind of dance steps will go to Take Five.

chas

Hi Chas: On TAKE FIVE, its' 5/4 'swing' groove may be easier felt by breaking the measure down to:

1-2-3 - 1-2

essentially swing waltz + duple (1-2)

To listen & confirm, click HERE , then scroll down to cut #3. Take Five.


Scott

One of the reasons I think many arranger players have rhythm problems is that few of them ever let the bass and drums be loud enough in contrast to their soloing voice.
There is always a tendency to want to listen to what you are playing, rather than concentrating on the rhythm section, often to the point (from listening to many of our members posted music) of obscuring the rhythm section altogether.

If you play with a real rhythm section, it doesn't matter how loud you play, the drummer and bass player usually have enough 'juice' left to rise up with you, and you never swamp them. You can always hear the drummer (usually TOO well!!), so you seldom lose the groove.

But do the same on an arranger, and your rhythm section just sits there, taking no notice of you..... It's all too easy to swamp them, and there goes your timing reference, and probably the groove.

The way to avoid this takes time, and a recorder of some sort (CD, cassette, built-in sequencer, etc.). Record yourself playing over your usual backing, then step back, clear your ears for a few minutes (listen to some jazz or classical, anything a bit different from what you just played), and then listen to what you just recorded, but here's the important thing - listen to it VERY QUIETLY.

It is much easier to hear when a lead voice is too loud at low volumes - at higher volumes you can still hear the other parts through the lead voice, but lower level listening quickly makes balance problems more noticeable. Now, does what you've recorded sound like the lead voice is a bit too loud, or does it 'sit' in the mix like a record? Does the lead ever obscure the drums a bit?

If so, go back to the registration (UPG or whatever your arranger calls the patch) and dial down the lead voice about 10%, and save (under a different name if you want to keep the original). Now record yourself doing the same song again, and (most importantly) try not to play harder to compensate for the drop in volume. Now listen again (after first clearing your ears for a few minutes) to the new recording, once again at VERY low levels. Is there ever a time when you lose the lead voice 'behind' the accompaniment? If not, dial down the lead voice another 10% and repeat.

Finally, there will come a level that you occasionally lose the lead voice. Now go back up 10% to the previous level and save. Now comes the hard part........ This new, 'correct' level may be 10-30% lower than you are used to, and you may want to hear yourself better, but don't give in to the temptation to play harder, or turn the lead back up. It IS the correct level..... You just have to get used to it.

But......... here's the best part of doing this - I guarantee you will be able to hear the rhythm section MUCH better now during your solos (and even better during the comping) and stand a much lesser chance of losing the groove. Your timing will improve, you will be listening more to the other things going on around you while you solo, and can interact more effectively. Plus your audience will appreciate a more even mix.

Over time, you will get used to hearing the correct amount of solo and comping volumes, and it becomes second nature, and timing problems will become more of a thing of the past.

_____________________________________________________

In fact, this repeated taping, listening and adjusting, then re-taping will help you cure a multitude of sins, from poor timing to bad registration choices, to having too much effects, to non-idiomatic instrument emulation. Just be patient, and focus on one problem at a time, and soon your playing and sound will improve dramatically.......

Charles, you can simply move (dance) to the groove using your your head, arms, and hands & fingers, w/o even having to hit the dance floor.

Scott

THIS WILL HELP THOSE THAT WANT TO BE HELPED:
body movement is an integral part of feeling and playing in rhythm. dancing on a dance floor is not required, but having some part or parts of your body "dance" to the music is. It's something i just can't help doing when listening or playing something rhythmic..but it isn't necessarily natural to everyone, whether it's due to lacking a rhythmic sensibility or being inhibited or cultural I don't know. In any case it will help one's rhythmic feel if they loosen up and employ any part of the body in the process.

"Time" is another thing. Many pianists that have great "feel" or "swing" still lose their sense of "time" when they work a lot of steady solo cocktail piano gigs, and they don't realize it's happening to them..but when they try to play with others it is a mess. The best remedy for this is to practice with drum and/or drum/bass kbd trax. Since I started using arranger kbds 6 yrs ago, my time when I go out to sit in and just sing or play sax, with no practice, is light years better than when I used to practice and gig a lot. My natural time has become integrated with the akb
time, yet there is nothing "mechanical" or "robotic" in it,
which many mistakenly feel will happen when you play
with "machines".

Conversely, I have found that musicians who are uncomfortable when sitting in with me when i'm solo on the akb, and can't find the groove, blame it on "having to play with a machine" when the truth is, the "machine" just exposes their inherent time problems. with a band the other players are always adjusting so they don't realize this. The musicians I know who have great time or want to improve their time always enjoy sitting in with me on akb, and even though they may sometimes waver
from the perfect time of the akb, their open ears bring
them back.

"hearing yourself" is something that sounds easy and
self-evident,but is one of the hardest things to master, and is the hallmark of the best musicians. But when you really learn to do it, it will change your life, if you can
survive the depression of the realization of what you
sounded like before you developed that skill.

One helpful hint to achieve self-hearing that is magic, not only for time, for phrasing ,for coherent ideas, but for timbre and pitch is this: While you play and/or sing, imagine yourself playing and/or singing the next phrase
before you actually execute it. Of course you will overlap, and you will lose concentration until you get it down. Try
this to prove it to yourself: Record yourself playing and/or
singing a familiar tune, and improvise on it for a chorus
or two. Do this in you usual intuitive fashion. Then record
the same tune while pre-imagining yourself playing
and/or singing each phrase as you play.

Take 2 aspirin and call me in the morning



------------------
Miami Mo

My honest opinion on this..., if you really want to get your rhythm in check--learn to play the drums, and learn to play "rhythm guitar". Being able to do both of these things has helped me SO MUCH with my piano and keyboard playing.

I truly think that taking the time to learn these two areas outside of keyboarding, and piano playing will make you stronger in the ryhthm department. Once you get a good handle on them, you'll start to pick out rhythm and timing issues in either your own work and others.

Squeak

Sounds like the making of a good song to me.

I got rhythm; I got music; I got my gal;
Who can ask for anything more?

Yep, I think this oughta' work!

Cheers,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

[This message has been edited by travlin'easy (edited 09-04-2006).]

I don't know about the dance/music connection. I guess it makes sense. As a pianist I have found the playing hand percussion instruments has been a helpful diversion for exploring rhythmic ideas. However, good hard work is many times the solution. Count it out, break it up into small pieces, start slow, and build up speed. Not always fun but usually effective.

I don't agree that if you don't have rhythm you're lost, since it can't be taught. I know an acoustic guitar player that just couldn't get a jazz waltz feel. I wasn't able to effectively instruct her on what to do. Fortunately, the drummer in the band was also a talented school band director and had just the trick for teaching a jazz waltz feel. Just say the following phrase over and over again "who PARKED the car"

For 5/4 just add baby "who PARKED the car, ba-by"

Try it, it works.

Scott's swing waltz + duple is technically correct. However, it's the little tricks that make the difference.

WHOA, there son ... my wife and I can cut a pretty mean rug - Lindy (swing), cha-cha, and especially merengue !!! ... but then, as much as I LOVE jazz, I'm not a 'jazz musician' ...

I do think that being a vocalist (to a limited degree) helps me considerably with my playing, as I think I play a tune as I would sing it ...

t.

Hmmmmm, for me "Who parked the car, baby" comes out 4/4.

Funny thing happened on a gig last week. Two African-American women were clapping to the music, hitting the 2 and 4, plus some good body movement going on. Between them sat an elderly white gal, doing her darnest to clap along, barely hitting the 1 and 3. Made me almost laugh out loud 'cause it was so much like Steve Martin in "The Jerk"

Glenn

Hi Robert: Yours is a perfectly fitting WORD PHRASE to fit that specific 5/4 groove! I'm definitely passing this one on to my music students. Thanks. - Scott

I remember back in college (studying music theory) having learned similar word phrase devices to represent rhythmic values, of which were helpful to master rhytmic grooves. The ones that immediately come to mind are:

Mississsippi: 16th notes
Tripoli: Triplet notes

Strangely enough, I've forgotten the many other word/phrases I had learned to associate with other note values & (often complicated) rhythmic note combinations. Hopefully Robert, or someone here, might be able to help refresh my memory with this? Thanks.

Scott

If you look closely at Robert's phrase again, you'll notice that the word parked is capitalized (accented). "Who PARKED the car" on: 1-2-3, and "Ba-by" representing beats 4 & 5 respectively. This rhythm can be heard played by Dave Brubeck on piano. - Scott

Tony,
I think your accordion background contributes to a lot of your (and other players too) rhythm and timimg capabilities.

If you take a minute to think of whats going on in each measure of a song that you play on the accordion, you can't help but to increase your rhythm and timing functions.

Left + right hands are playing 2 different things, but there's no sound, no music without physically pushing/pulling the bellows back and forth.
So you simultaneously maintain that control (in timing/rhythm) the positioning of the bellows, otherwise the volume level is too loud or too soft, OR, no sound at all because you just ran the bellows shut.

After you have developed that coordination (timing/rhythm) you work on accenting your music. Again, 2 different parts being played at the same time with only 1 source of accent control, the bellows.
Your rhythm develops to a higher level thru this training because you develop techniques to get your fingers off the treble keys for a split moment so you can accent a bass passage and vice versa.
The hand learns to become quicker than the ear (of the listener)

After playing a few years, this becomes automatic, mechanical without thinking about it.

Hence, rhythm and timing thru training.

You guys should get money for this kind of info you provide here for free.

After reading the thread yesterday morning, I thought about it and decided I have to correct that problem. Last night I realised that most of the time, on a particular distortion guitar solo I like to play, I am playing a little faster than I should, so in every 1-2 meters I have to slightly "correct" myself, and it showed in the recording.

And then Diki hit the nail in the head and I know one of the main reasons why, at least one that I can control. My distortion guitar patch dominates everything.

The "dancing with head and feet and hands" thing I do for years now, (never heard it before, just came out naturally) and it was nice to confirm that it actually helps.
Thank you all, this is what this forum is about.
Theodore

MrEd ... Thanks for taking me back to basics ... too often I 'forget' about the strong musical background my accordion days have given me ... Another point about the bellows control is that we also have to 'plan ahead' for long sustained notes, so that we do not change the direction of the bellows while playing a sustained note ... this was of critical importance during competitions ...

But I still play most songs as if I were singing them... ... which perhaps lends more to phrasing than to rhythm...
t.



[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 09-05-2006).]

Well, unless I'm not getting this, a lot of these responses are again talking about timing as opposed to rhythm. The 5/4 stuff is definitely about rhythm, but this stuff about dancing or moving or playing a solo a little too fast is more about timing. To me rhythm is about keeping the bars lined up. For instance, I hear demos of people who lose the rhythm and somehow start playing the melody on the 3 of the bar instead of the 1. So suddenly the measure is going 3 4 1 2 instead of 1 2 3 4. I mean, the timing is there, in that the person is staying with the beat, he's just on the wrong beat.

I was doing a demo for someone and he was a very basic guitar player. Well, he'd written this song not even knowing that he was switching from 3.4 to 4.4. He'd just "strum strum strum strum" the guitar, and sing along with it, and that strum strum was very steady, but he was just all over the place as far as beats per measure. I'd say he had timing, much as a metranome has timing, click click click, but he had no rhythm.

I think Chas is right...you "got it" or you don't". This is what separates the "men( or women) from the boys or (girls), I guess".

Top studio players "got it". I know many degreed musicians that "sadly" don't "got it".

Chas is also right in that, when the rythem section hits the pocket, it's a "beautiful thing".

I play one job a month for the State government with a lady who plays acoustic piano in a dining room 5 nights a week at a hotel. She's OK in that setting and very popular. But, adding a bass and drums creates a nightmare for everyone, including dancers.

It's all a matter of timing...


Russ

what is generally regarded as a musician's 'time' is not
about where they come in, go out, divide bars, or any other technical failures..those are amateur shortcomings.

what is meant is how steady or unsteady the tempo is..do they drag, speed up, or some of each...this is distinctly
different from their "rhythmic feel" or lack of it..and

among even great musicians there is variation between those who like to play right on the beat, just ahead, or just behind.a great rhythm section needs more than good musicianship, it needs unanimity of beat-feel, too.

Good explanation/understanding of "musician's time". "The Swing's the Thing"!


Russ

Wow, lots of good tips, observations, and advice on improving your sense of timing and getting more comfortable with less familiar time signatures. However, the point I was trying to make was distinguishing between timing errors and playing rhythmically. I alluded to some performances that have been offered here that were not played rhythmically. Things like 'leading' or rushing the beat, but in an exagerated way, giving a sense of not playing completely in time. Like trying to effect a forced syncopation that you don't really hear or feel. Makes the playing sound very amatuerish like someone playing a pop tune note for note from the sheet music (and rushing it).

I don't know if one can be trained out of this as I believe that these people hear it as being correct.

When Captain Russ talks about "in the pocket" being a beautiful thing, believe me, it is. You can play with a group every night for a month, be well-rehearsed and playing "tight" every night, and still maybe only experience that "special" groove once during the course of the month.....but man, is it worth it.

My wife, bless her, is a competent pianist and can play practically anything you put in front of her. However, listening to her play is like listening to a metronome and I'm certain that she has never played a single note in her entire life that was not written down. She played flute (her primary instrument) well enough to play with the Philadelphia summer orchestra (that's pretty much the orchestra without the first chairs) while she was in grad school (also at Temple, Robert G., luckily, not a music major).

Some examples of playing "in the pocket"; the Count Basie band, especially during the Joe Williams years. A good part of that sound was Freddy Green thumping away on that rhythm guitar...you felt him more than heard him. I remember an interview with some famous alumnus of the band who said, "if you want to play for Basie, you better have that rhythm". I think I know what he meant.

Other examples would be some of those great "fatback" organ trios of the 60's and 70's like Brother Jack McDuff, and Richard "Groove" Holmes. Also some of the great groups put together by Carlos Santana.

Anyway, as others have already observed, it's not so much about time as it is feel. And it really is true....you either have it or you don't. Fortunately, most of us do; it just needs fine-tuning.

chas

Interesting topic, thks for bringing up.

All good suggestions.
To add Some exercise suggestions;

Timing:
Play along with basic midi tracks.
If possible record and LISTEN to your playing.

Groove:
Write your own drum tracks in a sequencer or
drum machine.
If your drum composition with playback automaticly causes you to tap your feet or causes other rhytmic movements, you've done well.

ha, best explanation I've heard so far.

Well, not in MY case!
Dancing actually scares me. I'm serious..... I have terrific rhythm ..................... everywhere BUT my feet ! ( Unless I'm at the drums ! )

Has anyone tried this yet, and if so, what did youfind?



------------------
Miami Mo

I always have trouble with the song, The Wanderer when I'm playing drums. The beat I play is a 4/4 shuffle, but the background vocals that go Wah, Wah Wah fall on the offbeat. So when I sing and play at the same time, I really have to concentrate or I screw one or the other up. Otherwiese I have perfect timing and Rythem. Go Figure?

I was taught to sit at the Piano and improvise whilst I sing and/or Scat over the soloing. This helps ryhthm, timing, and improv skills.

Nice to meet you too. Welcome to Synthzone. For whatever reason, the SZ membership is primarily made up of men, so it's great to have 2 more women now join our forum, and interestingly enough, BOTH of you joining SZ on the very SAME day: 08/31/06. I look forward to yours & Mai Linh 's female perspective on arranger kbs & music.


I'm a part time music teacher (keyboards & voice) and music consultant, with my student ages ranging from teen to adult.

Again, welcome aboard MrsMusic.

Scott