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#118886 - 10/16/03 12:59 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
DonM Online   elvis
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 15821
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Jose, that's your opinion, and I respect it. I find it IS healthy and have researched it in depth. I find most people who knock the Adkins method have not even read the book. Anyway, I'm not trying to persuade anyone else to do it, and I'm finished discussing it.
Thanks,
DonM
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DonM

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#118887 - 10/16/03 02:33 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Tony W Offline
Member

Registered: 12/04/99
Posts: 836
Loc: Lancaster UK
My partner is vegetarian, I am not nor could I be. We have been together for eleven years in November and that is eleven years of making a meat meal and a veggie meal. We always (work permitting) eat together and I have to say the veggie meals are just as varied as my meaty meals. In our house it is a case of live and let eat
Best to all
Tony

------------------
www.tonywmusic.co.uk

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#118888 - 10/16/03 03:29 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10427
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
I've tried becoming a vegetarian (with diary, tofu & beans to supply 'balanced' protein requirements), but without my fix of red meat, began to quickly feel weak & tired within a couple of days. I had heard somewhere (rumor?) that there's some unique ingredient (essential amino acid?) in red meat not found in other foods that we need. Is this true? Is my desire (craving?) for meat merely a withdrawal symptom of an addiction to meat which will eventually pass, or is there some special ingredient in meat that we humans need to sustain a healthy life? - Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 10-16-2003).]
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#118889 - 10/16/03 03:46 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Scottyee:
I've tried becoming a vegetarian (with tofu & beans to supply 'balanced' protein requirements) but without at least an occasional fix of red meat, begin to feel weak & tired within a couple of days. I had heard somewhere (rumor?) that there's a unique ingredient (essential amino acid?) in red meat not found in other foods that we need. Is this true? Is my desire (craving?) for meat merely a withdrawal symptom which will eventually pass, or is there some unique ingredient in meat that's needed for us to sustain a healthy life?


To my knowledge there isn't one single nutrient present in red meat that can't be found on other types of food (this includes white meat). But there is one vitamin (B12) that cannot be found in animal foods (so pure vegetarians should take a suplement of this vitamin). In most cases, however, the real problem is not the absence of a specific nutrient in a diet, but the sustained (in a long enough period of time) insufficient quantity of some nutrients provided by a combination of foods in a diet.

I'll be back to comment on the article posted by Mike!

-- José.

[This message has been edited by matias (edited 10-16-2003).]

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#118890 - 10/16/03 06:38 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Idatrod Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/02
Posts: 562
Loc: Oceanside, CA USA
Quote:
Originally posted by matias:
But there is one vitamin (B12) that cannot be found in animal foods (so pure vegetarians should take a suplement of this vitamin).
I'll be back to comment on the article posted by Mike!

-- José.


Of course José means "cannot be found in 'plant' foods" not as he has stated 'animal' foods.

Animal foods, ie., Red meat, White meat, and many types of Fish, "DO" contain valuable sources of vitamim B12 whereas plant food sources contain NO vitamin B12. That is the reason vegetarians need to supplement their diets with vitamin B12. Cereals fortified with vitamin B12 is only a marginal way to add Vitamin B12 to the diet. Vegetarians should seriously consider Vitamin B12 supplements to get an adequate amount of Vitamin B12 in their diet.

To Scott Yee: The reason you felt lethargic and even dizzy when you were strictly on a Vegetarian diet Scott is because - Yes, there is something "missing" in a Vegetarian diet that all humans need that they can't get with a Vegetarian only diet and that is Vitamin B12. Even those that DO eat Red meat, etc., could still possibly be at risk of not getting enough Vitamin B12 in their diet. Read on for further enlightenment:

Vegetarian Diet and B12 Deficiency

Vitamin B12 Deficiency Seen in All Types of Vegetarians

By Sid Kirchheimer
WebMD Medical News Reviewed By Michael Smith, MD
on Wednesday, June 18, 2003

June 18, 2003 -- Researchers have long known that a strict vegetarian diet -- one that excludes all animal products -- can lead to vitamin B-12 deficiency, and possibly heart disease. Now, new research suggests that even those who follow a more lenient vegetarian diet are also at risk.

In the July issue of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, German researchers tracked 174 apparently healthy people living in Germany and the Netherlands.

They found that 92% of the vegans they studied -- those who ate the strictest vegetarian diet, which shuns all animal products, including milk and eggs -- had vitamin B12 deficiency. But two in three people who followed a vegetarian diet that included milk and eggs as their only animal foods also were deficient. Only 5% of those who consumed meats had vitamin B12 deficiency.

Take Heart

The problem: Vitamin B12 deficiency can boost blood levels of homocysteine, an amino acid implicated as a strong risk factor for heart disease and stroke. Studies have suggested that high homocysteine levels can promote blockages in arteries over time, possibly leading to heart disease and stroke.

"As the number of vegetarians is increasing worldwide, we have special concerns about some health aspects of this diet," lead researcher Wolfgang Herrmann, MD, PhD, tells WebMD. "We have a particular concern over vitamin B12 status being regularly monitored in vegetarians -- most importantly, in pregnant women, nursing mothers, children of vegetarian mothers and on macrobiotic diets, elderly vegetarians, and people who already have atherosclerosis."

Unlike some other B vitamins, B12 is not found in any plant food other than fortified cereals. It is, however, abundant in many meats and fish, and in smaller amounts in milk and eggs. This makes it difficult for people following a strict vegetarian diet to get the necessary amount of vitamin B12.

Meat Eaters: This Includes You

Even young, healthy, vitamin-taking meat-eaters may not be getting enough B12, according to Tufts University nutritionist Katherine Tucker, PhD.

In a study published three years ago, also in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, she found that nearly 40% of 3,000 adults under age 50 had blood levels of vitamin B12 low enough to cause problems.

"There were very few vegetarians in our study, and a lot were taking vitamin supplements," she tells WebMD. "There really seem to be a lot of absorption problems, even in younger people. One theory is the increased use of antacids may be blocking the absorption of B12."

The good news: It is virtually impossible to consume too much B12, since it has a very low potential for toxicity. According to the Institute of Medicine, "No adverse effects have been associated with excess vitamin B12 intake from food and supplements in healthy individuals."

Tucker's advice: "If you are a vegetarian and have been for a long time, if you are taking antacids, or are getting older and may be having some problems, or are just concerned, you can safely take vitamin supplements at levels of 500 to 1,000 micrograms (1 milligram). Fortified cereals may not be enough."

Your Body and Vitamin B12

Vitamin B12 helps maintain healthy nerve and red blood cells and is also needed to make DNA, which is why it's especially important that pregnant and nursing women consume enough.

Vitamin B12 deficiency leads to anemia. Symptoms of vitamin B12 deficiency, which usually come on gradually, include fatigue, weakness, nausea, and constipation. Long-term and severe vitamin B12 deficiency can lead to nerve changes such as numbness, tingling in the hands and feet, balance and memory problems, and depression.

A blood test is the best way to test for vitamin B12 deficiency, and Herrmann recommends that all vegetarians get tested every year.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SOURCES: American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, July 2003. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, February 2000. USDA Nutrient Database. NIH Clinical Center website. Wolfgang Hermann, MD, PhD, professor, department of Clinical Chemistry, Saarland University Hospital, Homburg, Germany. Katherine Tucker, PhD, associate professor of nutritional epidemiology, Jean Mayer Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at Tufts University, Boston.

Best regards,
Mike






[This message has been edited by Idatrod (edited 10-16-2003).]

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#118891 - 10/17/03 03:13 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Beakybird Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/27/01
Posts: 2154
I think that the best health indicator is longevity. Vegetarians benefit from greater longevity. Perhaps 1 1/2 - 2 years. See: http://www.ivu.org/oxveg/Talks/veglongevity.html. They cite a study that includes thousands of cohorts and takes into account that vegetarians in industrialized countries are generally more affluent and have other healthier lifestyles.

Here is a list of vegetarians who hardly suffered from lethargy:

Carl Lewis, “Olympian of the Century,” Olympic medalist in track
Ruth Heidrich, Ironman triathlete, age-group record holder
Martina Navratilova, tennis champion
Desmond Howard, Heisman trophy winner
Stan Price, world-record holder in bench press
Bill Walton, NBA Hall of Famer
Phoebe Mills, Olympic medal-winning gymnast
Billie Jean King, tennis champion
Bill Manetti, powerlifting champion
Bill Pearl, four-time Mr. Universe and bodybuilder
Al Oerter, discus thrower and winner of four Olympic gold medals
Keith Holmes, WBC World Middleweight Champion
Robert Parish, one of the NBA’s “50 Greatest Players”
Jack LaLanne, fitness legend and media star
Edwin Moses, two-time Olympic Gold medalist in hurdles

Source: Vegetarian Times Magazine

In my spiritual organization, I have two friendly acquaintances, the ex US ping pong champion who represented the USA in a previous olympics, and a German who received the silver medal in the 1976 Olympics. These men were hardly victims of lethargy.

As to B12, dairy in the diet provides B12. Most multivitamines contain much more than the USDA requirement.

The Atkins diet works for some because taking cheap carbs and cheap sugars out of the diet will help you lose weight. A healthy vegetarian diet without white sugar, white rice, and white flour is very conducive to weight loss.

There is single lifestyle choice more powerful one can do to end world hunger and help the planet than becoming vegetarian. If you think of all the pollution caused by livestock farming (including farting cows), the energy used, the water consumed, the vegetable matter used, and the agrible land utilized, it is astounding. As I have stated, 7 times more land to feed an omnivore.

There are important ethical considerations as well that I do not want to go into.

Anyway, I would just like to underscore that going veggie is one lifestyle choice that is more healthy, more environmentally sound, and more ethical.

I know non-veggies that have virtues far beyond mine. I just want to emphasize that I think that this is a good choice.

Beakybird

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#118892 - 10/17/03 05:39 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Idatrod:
Of course José means "cannot be found in 'plant' foods" not as he has stated 'animal' foods.


Of course, Mike, thanks for the correction!

Quote:
Why I Am Not a Vegetarian
by Dr. William T. Jarvis


Well, I read the article, and I think the title (and introduction) doesn't reflect the message of his article. Along the article he explains why he's not an *SDA vegetarian*. It's mostly about ideological vegetarianism and their claimed moral superiority and how he refutes "the package".

Vegetarian eating habits have great advantages, as the author recognizes in one of the first paragraphs. Personally, I am not radical about not eating meat. Eating less meat, weekly, makes me feel better, lighter (meat is relatively hard to process in the body), and it is widely accepted that *excessive* red meat consumption increases the probability of some serious health problems in the long term. A good vegetarian meal can be a delicious experience, and I try not to loose an opportunity to try a vegetarian restaurant. Unfortunately, in my country and particularly in my area - a very rural area where the meat has an exceptional quality - I don't get lucky very often!

Reading the article, I got the impression that the author has some kind of trauma with SDAs (Seventh-Day Adventist). I sort of understand why he feels the need to fight this kind of ideological vegetarianism. While living in Germany for a couple if years, some years ago, I (the most agnostic guy) fell in love with a girl from the SDA church, so I know what he is talking about. But discussing the moral questions is something different than discussing the benefits of a nutrition pattern with a higher percentage of foods derived from plants.

The other thing the author does not discuss - and it would be worth debating - is the ecological advantages of a nutrition less based on animal foods (again, I refuse all kinds of radicalism in this issue). However, this doesn't prevent him to try to ridicularize the "friends of mother earth" in the begining. Very interesting reading, Mike! Thanks for sharing these with us.

-- José.

[This message has been edited by matias (edited 10-17-2003).]

[This message has been edited by matias (edited 10-17-2003).]

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#118893 - 10/17/03 08:06 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Idatrod Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/02
Posts: 562
Loc: Oceanside, CA USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Beakybird:

Here is a list of vegetarians who hardly suffered from lethargy:

Carl Lewis, “Olympian of the Century,” Olympic medalist in track
Ruth Heidrich, Ironman triathlete, age-group record holder
Martina Navratilova, tennis champion
Desmond Howard, Heisman trophy winner
Stan Price, world-record holder in bench press
Bill Walton, NBA Hall of Famer
Phoebe Mills, Olympic medal-winning gymnast
Billie Jean King, tennis champion
Bill Manetti, powerlifting champion
Bill Pearl, four-time Mr. Universe and bodybuilder
Al Oerter, discus thrower and winner of four Olympic gold medals
Keith Holmes, WBC World Middleweight Champion
Robert Parish, one of the NBA’s “50 Greatest Players”
Jack LaLanne, fitness legend and media star
Edwin Moses, two-time Olympic Gold medalist in hurdles

Source: Vegetarian Times Magazine

As to B12, dairy in the diet provides B12. Most multivitamines contain much more than the USDA requirement.

Anyway, I would just like to underscore that going veggie is one lifestyle choice that is more healthy, more environmentally sound, and more ethical.

I know non-veggies that have virtues far beyond mine. I just want to emphasize that I think that this is a good choice.

Beakybird



Larry

The point is that all of those Athletes, etc., that you mentioned wouldn't have been able to accomplish what they did if they lacked Vitamin B12 in their diet. So to be a 'true' Vegetarian in every sense of the word is basically impossible. Dairy products are 'byproducts' of "animals". Vitamin B12 is NOT found in plant sources and the only way to obtain it is through "Animal" sources. Even Vitamin B12 "supplements" are from animal sources. So theoretically NOBODY IS a true Vegetarian because we all need Vitamin B12 in our Diet and the only way for anybody to get it IN their diet is from Dairy products (which are animal byproducts) or from animals themselves (including Vitamin B12 supplements, which are processed and made from animal sources.) Even fortified cereals that have been fortified with vitamin B12 receive their B12 fortification from 'animal' sources. So may I submit to you: a true Vegetarian there is NOT!, ie., - those who claim to abstain from "all" sources of Animal and animal 'byproducts'. I understand there are at least 5 categories of the term Vegetarian but each one has to have vitamin B12 in their diet which can only be obtained through animal sources. So the slaughter of animals goes on whether you're a Vegetarian or not [or whether you like it or not] so that people, ie., (the WORLD population) can get their adequate supply of B12. I'm amazed that even though the truth is plainly shown to people they still want to believe and even propagate a lie.

Characteristic signs of B12 deficiency include fatigue, weakness, nausea, constipation, flatulence (gas) [talk about Cows farting!!], loss of appetite, and weight loss [good way to lose weight and lose your health in the process!!]. Deficiency also can lead to neurological changes such as numbness and tingling in the hands and feet. Additional symptoms of B12 deficiency are difficulty in maintaining balance, depression, confusion, poor memory, and soreness of the mouth or tongue.

Best regards,
Mike

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#118894 - 10/17/03 09:18 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Idatrod Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/02
Posts: 562
Loc: Oceanside, CA USA
Also I wanted to post a couple articles regarding people on the List you gave Larry.

Notice if you will that Bill Walton IS eating meat again. There may be people who claim to be vegetarians but how long do they [claim] to stay Vegetarians?? One year?, five years?, one week?

"After achieving superstardom playing for John Wooden's powerhouse UCLA Bruins in the early '70s and winning three straight College Player of the Year Awards, Walton was destined to become an NBA legend. When he was healthy Walton had few peers.

He won the NBA Most Valuable Player Award while playing for the defending NBA-champion Trail Blazers in 1977-78. At the top of his form, Walton scored, passed, intimidated, hustled, and played the role of leader with the best centers of his day. He was a perfectionist whose range of skills and dedication never ceased to impress those who saw him play.

But dozens of injuries, most infamously a chronically broken bone in his left foot, robbed Walton of the storybook career that seemed sure to be his. During his 13 years in the league, he played in only 44 percent of regular-season contests and left the game with a modest 13.3 scoring average.

Walton first appeared on the national stage as a lanky college kid who exhibited a winning attitude on the court and an anti-establishment attitude off it. While at UCLA in the early '70s, he was arrested during an anti-Vietnam War rally, publicly criticized Richard Nixon and the FBI, and reportedly flirted with leaving basketball to pursue spiritual enlightenment. A fan of the Grateful Dead, the young Walton was a vegetarian, wore flannel shirts and multicolored headbands and toted his gym clothes in an onion bag.

After his arrest as a junior, Walton issued a statement that read: "Your generation has screwed up the world. My generation is trying to straighten it out.. Money doesn't mean anything to me. It can't buy happiness, and I just want to be happy."

Many who knew Walton, including Wooden himself, felt the young center was too susceptible to fringe ideas. "I had no problem with him during the season," Wooden told the Los Angeles Times. "Off the floor I worried. I worried when he was thrown in jail with the group that took over the administration building, I worried when he stopped traffic on Wilshire Boulevard, and when he interrupted classes giving his views on the Vietnam War."

Walton enjoyed a blazing start as a rookie, averaging 16.0 ppg, 19.0 rpg, 4.4 apg and 4.00 blocked shots in his first seven contests. Praise came quickly. "I was with the Boston Celtics when Russell came into the league," Lakers Coach Bill Sharman told the Los Angeles Times. "Walton is the same type of player. Extremely intelligent-but besides that, he has tremendous basketball instinct."

Then came the injuries. Foot problems limited Walton to only 35 games as a rookie and a meager 12.8 ppg. Portland won 11 more games in 1974-75 than in the previous year but failed to live up to its potential, largely because of Walton's health troubles.

Portland fell to the bottom of the Pacific Division in 1975-76, though Walton started to come into his own, scoring 16.1 ppg, pulling down 13.4 rpg and demonstrating excellent passing skills from the low- or high-post in 51 contests. Still, foot problems continued to hamper the young center, and fans started wondering what the Blazers had gotten themselves into. During his first two years in Portland, Walton had sprained an ankle, broken his left wrist twice and dislocated two toes and two fingers. He even broke a toe on a water sprinkler and hurt his leg in a jeep accident.

His foot deadened by a painkilling injection, Walton attempted a comeback in the playoffs against the Seattle SuperSonics. Then came what many felt was the death knell of Walton's career. After Game 2, X-rays showed that the navicular bone below Walton's left ankle was broken. The Trail Blazers lost the series in six games and the services of Walton forever.

The controversies that had embroiled Walton up to this point were mild compared to what would follow. After the playoffs Walton demanded to be traded and accused Portland management with providing him poor medical treatment. Doing the talking for Walton was controversial sports educator and activist Jack Scott, whose presence only made an already strange situation more bizarre. (Walton later sued the team; the case was settled out of court.)

Walton signed a then-record seven-year, $7 million contract to play with the Clippers, who had played just over .500 ball the year before. He cut his hair, started eating meat again, stopped hanging out with Jack Scott, trimmed his Lincoln-esque beard, and tried to mend fences with the press. "I'm a different person now than I was when I came into the NBA," he said in an interview with Sport magazine.

After the 1984-85 campaign Walton went shopping. He called on two of the league's premier teams, the Boston Celtics and the Los Angeles Lakers. After several Celtics said they liked the idea of having Walton as a teammate and as a backup for workhorses Robert Parish and Kevin McHale, Red Auerbach made the deal happen. He acquired Walton by sending popular forward Cedric Maxwell to the Clippers along with a first-round draft pick. Walton once again had the chance to play for a world champion, and his childhood hopes of playing for the Celtics were realized.

The former West Coast radical in lumberjack clothing found a home in the land of turtlenecks and penny loafers. Walton received a minute-long standing ovation from the Boston Garden crowd after walking onto the parquet floor at his first exhibition game. Celtics faithful would have plenty more to cheer about during what would become a dream season for the Celtics and the aging Walton.

Walton appeared in 80 games in 1985-86, 13 more than his previous career high. While playing only 19.3 minutes per contest, he averaged 7.6 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 2.1 apg and 1.33 bpg. He also set a career high with a .562 field-goal percentage. In one game he scored 20 points and pulled down 12 rebounds in just 26 minutes. During the season he was hampered only by a broken nose, the 13th of his 13-year career. Assuming an unfamiliar supporting role, the 33-year-old Walton was playing with the excitement of a college kid. And the league rewarded him with the NBA Sixth Man Award, won by McHale the previous two seasons.

With one of the strongest lineups in NBA history, Boston steamrolled through the regular season, compiling a 67-15 record. In the playoffs the Celtics lost only 3 of 18 games, defeating the Houston Rockets and their "Twin Towers," Ralph Sampson and Hakeem Olajuwon, in the Finals in six games.

Walton's satisfaction with capturing his second championship and winning the Sixth Man Award was immeasurable. In an article in the Boston Herald, McHale said of Walton: "You watch an old, old guy like that, with the most hammered body in sports, acting like a high school kid -- it's both funny and inspiring at the same time. Every game was a challenge, and he didn't let any of us forget that."


Tuesday, April 22, 2003
Carl Lewis arrested for DUI


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


By The Associated Press


LOS ANGELES - Nine-time Olympic gold medalist Carl Lewis was arrested for investigation of misdemeanor driving under the influence after a one-car accident early Monday.

The 41-year-old track star wasn't injured in the accident on Interstate 110 in South Los Angeles.

The California Highway Patrol found Lewis alone in a 2004 Maserati and noticed signs of alcohol intoxication, Officer Joseph Pace said.

Lewis failed a series of field sobriety tests and was arrested, Pace said. A breath test given later at a police station showed Lewis' blood-alcohol level was .08 percent, the level at which a driver is considered intoxicated in California.

Pace said it's possible Lewis struck a sound wall next to the freeway, because his car was damaged on the right side.

Lewis, who had a Texas driver's license, was released to a friend.

The case was scheduled for July 7 in Los Angeles Superior Court.

Best regards,
Mike

PS: It is common knowledge that people's mind set about Vegetarians is one of very Liberal, biased and even whacked out individuals. Could the reason be that they are portrayed that way is they are not receiving enough essential nutrients in their diet and because of it are exhibiting bizzare behaviors and shooting themselves in the foot? Just a thought.

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#118895 - 10/17/03 03:39 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
rattley Offline
Member

Registered: 11/14/99
Posts: 767
Loc: Punta Gorda Florida USA
My 2 cents (pounds?) worth on why I now weigh more than I should...........

1) I have ALWAYS loved to eat!
2) "Supersize it for 25 cents more"......
3) Food is EVERYWHERE now. Gas stations,
lumber yards, deli's everywhere......
4) All you can eat buffets.....This is NOT
meant as a challenge!!
5) Repeat 1 thru 4..................

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