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#118866 - 10/16/03 12:03 AM How's your Diet Progressing?
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10427
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
I remember a while back (2 months ago) that a few people here (DonM, Uncle Dave, thePro, and others) had mentioned they had recently begun new diets: Atkins, Lo Carbs, etc.

I myself am a 'Weight Watchers' lifetime member, lost 27 lbs and have maintained (more or less) my target goal weight for over 2 years. I occasionally creep back up 5 - 10 lbs, but am able to get back on the diet/exercise plan (flex points system):
http://www.weightwatchers.com/plan/flex/index.aspx

and drop back back down to my optimal weight again fairly easily. Weight Watchers works for me. Curious to hear how your particular diet plan is working for you and how you guys are progressing with it.

Scott
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#118867 - 10/16/03 12:25 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Graham UK Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/20/01
Posts: 1825
Loc: Lincolnshire UK
After last weeks over eating at the Keyboard Festival. We have just started the Hay diet (Food Combining). You don't eat Carbs & Protein at the same meal. A lot of books about weight loss contradict each other, but we thought we would give it a shot to see the results.
The Hay book states that the common cold latches on to a person when the immune system is low and they go on to say food combining is a major cause because Carbs & Protein in the same meal are fighting each other.

Graham

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#118868 - 10/16/03 12:25 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 39588
Loc: NJ
Diets and Pro Musicians doing affairs dont mix well. Buffet's, Dinner Dances, Outdoor BBQ, Picnic Gigs Luncheons day after day look too good to even try to lose weight.
I stopped smoking 20 years agao that was my Finst hour and hardest challenge & Healtiest also!!! I'm big, but I eat healthy.

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#118869 - 10/16/03 12:40 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
eddiefromrotherham Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/02
Posts: 788
Loc: Rotherham,England.
My personal lifelong struggle with extra pounds was sorted for me over the last two years.
If anyone knows what Lactose Inolerance is, they will understand what fellow-sufferers can go through, but to avoid messy explanations, let's explain that it causes upset digestion(and that's putting it very mildly).
As a result, I fortunately found a website which was specifically for talking about it.
And thankfully, offered relief for us by ponting us towards self-help and dietary hints.
We fellow sufferers have lost our bodily production of LACTASE. This breaks down LACTOSE, which comes from milk, into acceptable sugars.Otherwise, the lactose ferments rapidly in the system and causes untold misery!
The point of my thesis is that we now either cut out or down on any food which contains milk or products of milk (mainly dairy products ) and occasionally supplement our lactase with the lactase enzymes from medication.
As a result of cutting out, or drastically reducing intake of dairy products, it is very easy to maintain a weight level.
And I mean very easy, because my own weight has been stabilised now within 2 pounds for over a couple of years.
Sorry, if this is very boring to most , but there are a lot more lactose intolerant people around than know about it (estimated at 25% of the white population and a much higher number of african-descent).

If you have problems with your digestion (let's not mince words here - If you are plagued with the runs!) then it may be wise to ask your doctor for a LI test.

Now play some music to take away the nasty taste I left in your thoughts!

cheers

------------------
Eddie from Rotherham
www.yamahakeyboards.info

my mail is virus-free thanks to Norton Antivirus2002


[This message has been edited by eddiefromrotherham (edited 10-16-2003).]
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Eddie from Rotherham
http://www.music2myears.plus.com

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#118870 - 10/16/03 05:35 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Louis-Simon Ouellet Offline
Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 51
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
hello!!

i've been morbidly obese for well over 20 some+ years. i've had bariatric surgery or a gastric bypass on june 10 th 2003, same surgery as Carnie Wilson or Al Roker the weatheramn. i went from 412 lbs to 309 as of last week so thats 103 lost in 4 months!! and my weight is still going down!! yes!!!!!! i'm regaining my health and my life back, at 42 i will be getting engaged at xmas !!

you can see me pictures before and now at: http://www3.sympatico.ca/ls.ouellet/Mes_Photos.htm
sorry my site is french but i garantee the pictures are are multi-lingual!!

thanks!
Simon

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#118871 - 10/16/03 05:44 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 39588
Loc: NJ
Simon,

Congratulations..Way To Go! Weight loss is a major struggle but it seems you have a good grip on Sucessfully reaching your Goals!!

My Hats off to you!

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#118872 - 10/16/03 05:48 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
The Pro Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/09/02
Posts: 1087
Loc: Atlanta, Georgia
I was on Atkins for most of this year and my weight went up and down. The bad things about Atkins were my blood pressure went way up because I was comsuming a lot of sodium without realizing it, and my energy levels were way down. I now just follow the Atkins guidelines more loosely: I watch my sodium, sugar and carb intake carefully and keep it to a minimum but not eliminate them altogether except for "junk food" which I don't eat at all. I struck a deal with a private gym owner to give me the keys to his place in return for computer services, and my wife and I now work out for two hours three or four days a week. My weight is still higher than I would like but my muscle mass has gone up. I am now focusing more on my physique than weight. I'd rather be large and feel good than skinny and feel bad.
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Jim Eshleman

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#118873 - 10/16/03 05:56 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Beakybird Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/27/01
Posts: 2154
How many people are there on the planet? 6 billion? How much starvation is there? Plenty. It is indisputable that the higher we eat on the food chain, the more food and resources we are consuming.

Think of all the plant material that a steer eats. 10 times its weight in a lifetime. How much fresh drinking water it drinks and how much water goes into producing its meat. Thousands of gallons. How much energy and manpower had to go into producing the 10x its weight in feed and in raising the livestock and then converting it into meat.

In fact, it requires seven times more land to feed an omnivore than it does a vegetarian. 3 1/2 acres per year as compared to 1/2 acre. Someone on the Atkins diet probably requires double this amount of land because they are consuming so much meat.

An SUV gets half the mileage per gallon as a regular car. As omnivores, we are like SUVs consuming 7 times more food than necessary. I'm talking about the food that we ate, and the food that our animal bretheren ate. We are consuming the fresh water we drank and all of the fresh water that the steer drank and all of the fresh water that was used to produce the plant material the steer ate plus all the water used to process the meat.

Read "Diet for a Small Planet," or "Diet for a New America."

Most of the people in the developing world are for the most part, vegetarian, and the incidence of obesity is far less than here in America where we consume about as much meat as any nation in the world.

I am concerned about world hunger, and it makes plain sense that the lower on the food chain we all eat, the more agrible land is available for the rest of the world.

Beakybird

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#118874 - 10/16/03 07:09 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Tony W Offline
Member

Registered: 12/04/99
Posts: 836
Loc: Lancaster UK
I have been the same weight since age 15 ... 9 stone (126 pounds). I can neither lose weight nor put it on no matter what I eat (or don't eat).
It has always been a bone of contention with me .... all my friends started to turn chubby at 14 / 15 and then that puppy fat turned to muscle. I excercised just as hard as them and am still the skinny minny I was back then
I am not bragging at all.....In fact I have always hated the fact that I am not bigger....I would love to put a few stone on!
At least my skinny fingers don't have a problem with those baby keys
Best to all
Tony

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www.tonywmusic.co.uk

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#118875 - 10/16/03 07:11 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Idatrod Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/02
Posts: 562
Loc: Oceanside, CA USA
Why I Am Not a Vegetarian


by Dr. William T. Jarvis

Vegetarianism has taken on a “political correctness” comparable to the respectability it had in the last century, when many social and scientific progressives advocated it. Today, crusaders extol meatless eating not only as healthful but also as a solution to world hunger and as a safeguard of “Mother Earth.” The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM) aggressively attacks the use of animal foods and has proposed its own food-groups model, which excludes all animal products.
I disclaimed vegetarianism after many years of observance. Although the arguments in favor of it appear compelling, I have learned to be suspicious, and to search for hidden agendas, when I evaluate claims of the benefits of vegetarianism. Vegetarianism is riddled with delusional thinking from which even scientists and medical professionals are not immune.
Don’t get me wrong: I know that meatless diets can be healthful, even desirable, for some people. For example: (a) Men with an iron-loading gene are better off without red meat, because it contains heme iron, which is highly absorbable and can increase their risk of heart disease. (b) Because vegetarian diets are likely to contain less saturated fat than nonvegetarian diets, they may be preferable for persons with familial hypercholesterolemia. (c) Vegetables contain phytochemicals that appear protective against colorectal cancer. (d) Homocysteinemia (elevated plasma homocysteine) approximately doubles the risk of coronary artery disease. Several congenital and nutritional disorders, including deficiencies of vitamins B6 and B12 and folic acid, can cause this condition. Since folic acid occurs mostly in vegetables, low intakes of the vitamin are less likely among vegetarians than among nonvegetarians. (e) Some people find that being a vegetarian helps to control their weight. Vegetarianism tends to facilitate weight control because it is a form of food restriction; and in our overfed society, food restriction is a plus unless it entails a deficit of some essential nutrient.
However, one need not eliminate meat from one’s diet for any of the foregoing reasons. Apparently, it is ample consumption of fruits and vegetables, not the exclusion of meat, that makes vegetarianism healthful.
Dog Day Afternoon?
The term “vegetarian” is misleading, for it is not a name for people who favor vegetable consumption, but a code word for those who disfavor or protest the consumption of animal foods. The neologism anticarnivorist better characterizes the majority of those who call themselves vegetarians. I call myself a “vegetable enthusiast,” because I strongly encourage eating lots of vegetables, including legumes, whole grains, and fruits. I believe that these foods are desirable not only because of their high nutrient density and low caloric density, but also because of aesthetic and gustatory factors. Being a vegetable enthusiast doesn’t entail rejecting the use of meat or animal products.
Most people who categorize vegetarians identify at least five different kinds, based on which types of animal food they consume: Semivegetarians consume dairy products, eggs, fish, and chicken; pesco-vegetarians consume dairy products, eggs, and fish; lacto-ovo-vegetarians, dairy products and eggs; ovo-vegetarians, eggs; and vegans, no animal foods. From a behavioral standpoint, I categorize vegetarians as either pragmatic or ideologic. A pragmatic vegetarian is one whose dietary behavior stems from objective health considerations (e.g., hypercholesterolemia or obesity). Pragmatic vegetarians are rational, rather than emotional, in their approach to making lifestyle decisions. In contrast, vegetarianism is a “matter of principle” for ideologic vegetarians; its appropriateness is a given.
One can spot ideologic vegetarians by their exaggerations of the benefits of vegetarianism, their lack of skepticism, and their failure to recognize (or their glossing over of) the potential risks even of extreme vegetarian diets. Ideologic vegetarians make a pretense of being scientific, but they approach the subject of vegetarianism more like lawyers than scientists. Promoters of vegetarianism gather data selectively and gear their arguments toward discrediting information that is contrary to their dogma. This approach to defending a position is suitable for a debate, but it cannot engender scientific understanding.
Because of the influence of my Seventh-day Adventist (SDA) environment, I practiced vegetarianism for many years. My wife and I even tried to give up consuming all animal products, but this didn’t work. We sometimes muse aloud about the morning we put soymilk on our breakfast cereal. We ended up eating the cereal with a fork because we found the mixture repulsive. We had another unforgettable experience when we ate with a group of vegetarian hippies in the Oregon woods. We were there at their request to advise them on vegetarian eating. They had already prepared the worst-looking vegetarian stew I have ever seen or tasted. It consisted of raw peanuts and a variety of half-cooked vegetables. After eating it, I had heartburn for hours. Digestive distress is legendary among SDAs.
Reasons for adopting vegetarianism can be very personal. Some years ago I shared a podium for several days with a vegetarian. It became clear from our informal conversations that he was not religious; so I asked him why he had opted for vegetarianism. He told me a touching story about having been a lonely boy whose closest companion was his pet dog. He said that, peering into the dog’s eyes one day, he had come to see the animal as a fellow being. Soon he had applied this view to all animals, and since he could not bear the thought of eating his dog, he could no longer eat other animals.
North by Northwest
Darla Erhardt, R.D., M.P.H., listed five vegetarian postulates: (1) All forms of life are sacred, and all creatures have a right to live out their natural lives. (2) It is anatomically clear that God did not design humans to eat meat. (3) Slaughter is repugnant and degrading. (4) Raising animals for meat is inefficient and misuses available land. (5) Animal flesh is unhealthful because it contains toxins, virulent bacteria, uric acid, impure fluids, and the wrong kinds of nutrients. 1 I find all of these axioms flawed:
1. The belief that all life is sacred can lead to absurdities such as allowing mosquitoes to spread malaria, or vipers to run loose on one’s premises. Inherent in the idea that all life is sacred is the supposition that all forms of life have equal value. The natural world reveals hierarchies in the food chain, the dominance of certain species over others. And most creatures in the wild die (usually the victim of a predator) long before they have reached the genetic limit on their longevity.
2. The multifarious dietary practices of human populations belie the notion that humans are designed to be vegetarians rather than omnivores. For example, Australian aborigines consume insect larvae and reptiles, Eskimos eat raw meat, and traditional Hindus are vegetarians.
The first SDA physician, John Harvey Kellogg (1852Ð1943), was a vegetarian zealot. Alonzo Baker, Ph.D., his former private secretary, told me of an incident that occurred circa 1939: Kellogg awakened him in the middle of the night and ordered him to board the morning train for Cleveland. There, Weston Price, D.D.S., who had just returned from the mysterious high north, was to give a report on Eskimo dietary habits. When Baker returned, he informed Kellogg of Price’s finding that Eskimos ate raw meat almost exclusively (eskimo literally means “raw meat eater”). Kellogg accused Price of lying.
Perhaps Kellogg disbelieved Price partly because it was widely known that the 1898 Yukon gold rushers had suffered extensively from scurvy. People generally believed that Eskimos derived their vitamin C from berries the snow had preserved. In fact, Eskimos derive vitamin C from the raw meat of animals who synthesize ascorbic acid. If they had cooked their meat, they would have developed scurvy like the gold rushers. (When I visited Northwest Territories, Canada, in 1973, a Franciscan monk who raised beautiful vegetables in a greenhouse in Pelly Bay told me that the Inuits, or North American Eskimos, didn’t like their taste and wouldn’t eat them.)
3. Whether something is repugnant is highly individual. Some Hindus who will not eat animal foods readily drink their own urine for the sake of health. And what is repugnant —for example, chores such as changing a baby’s diaper or caring for sick people —is not necessarily wrong. Whether such activities are degrading is a matter of opinion. That most prey are eaten while they are still alive testifies to the heartlessness of nature compared to slaughterhouses, where death is generally quick and painless.
4. The idea that animal-raising is an inefficient way to produce food is half-baked. Animals pull their weight when it comes to land-use and food-production efficiency: They graze on lands unsuitable for crop-growing, eat those portions of plants that are considered inedible (e.g., corn stalks and husks), and provide byproducts and services that ease human burdens. 2 Many nomadic populations survive on lands that lack farming potential by feeding on animals whose nourishment is coarse vegetation humans can’t digest.
5. The postulate that toxins render meat unfit as food also lacks merit. Plants also contain naturally occurring toxicants, many of which are far more deadly than those of animal flesh. 3 Vegetarian evangelists who revel in portraying animal foods as unhealthful disregard the fact that those societies that consume the most animal products enjoy record longevity. They also overlook the reality that the animals they brand as diseased are herbivores whose diet consists entirely of raw vegetation. These animals develop many diseases “despite” becoming vegans after weaning.
Ideologic Vegetarianism
Much of my professional life has been spent studying health fraud, quackery, and related misinformation, and their impact on people’s lives. I have discerned a recurrent sequence of behaviors: First, the prospective vegetarian eliminates reportedly unhealthful foods from his or her diet, beginning with foods that society considers “bad for you” (e.g., sugar, coffee, and white bread). Next, if concerns about food safety grow to neurotic proportions, the person scrutinizes labels and worries about ingredients indicated by terms he doesn’t understand. Then he may patronize health food stores, where clerks and publications can feed his phobias. He may treat modern foods as poisonous. Finally, if he deems vegetarianism not restrictive enough, the “health foodist” may turn to veganism. In my opinion, it is at this point that vegetarianism becomes hazardous, especially for children.
The case of Sonja and Khachadour Atikian illustrates what can happen to those seduced by ideologic vegetarianism. The Atikians were ŽmigrŽs from Lebanon who —because of unrelenting media barrages focusing on environmental pollution, diet, and health —became overly concerned about the safety and healthfulness of modern foods. Sonja Atikian began shopping at health food stores instead of supermarkets. Gerhardt Hanswille, a self-styled herbalist from Germany, taught classes in the rear of a health food store she patronized. Although Hanswille was not licensed to practice medicine, he saw 40 to 45 “patients” day. He treated Ms. Atikian for a sore knee, and she took some of his courses. Hanswille taught that: (a) people should not kill animals, nor consume animal products; (b) God intended cow’s milk to be food for calves, not human babies; (c) eating eggs deprives hens of fulfilling their divinely intended role as mothers; (d) people should not poison themselves or the earth with the unnatural products of modern living; (e) using herbs both as food and as medicine is God’s way; and (f) the medicines of doctors are poisons. “Choose whom you will believe,” said Hanswille, “me or the doctors. You can’t have it both ways.”
Ms. Atikian chose poorly. Except for eating fish occasionally, she followed the herbalist’s advice during pregnancy. She delivered a healthy 8.2-lb girl named Loreie. Hanswille convinced the Atikians that the newborn would become a superbaby if they gave her a vegetarian diet of raw, organic foods. He dissuaded them from having the infant immunized and from continuing to see a pediatrician. And he induced them to rely on him for healthcare advice.
Four and a half months after her birth, Loreie’s weight was still at the 75th percentile, but when she was 11 months old, breast-feeding —her sole source of animal food —discontinued. Fed only fruits, vegetables, and rice, she eventually stopped growing, slept more and more, and had more and more infections. As the baby’s health spiraled downward, Hanswille assured the parents that her decline was merely “the poisons coming out of her body” and that she would eventually become the superbaby they desired. In 1987, 17-month-old Loreie died of bronchial pneumonia complicated by severe malnutrition. She weighed 111/4 lbs. The Atikians were charged with failing to provide their daughter with the “necessaries of life.” Their defense was that they had truly believed they had been providing the “necessaries of life” when they followed Hanswille’s advice. The judge acquitted them after the discovery that the prosecution had failed to provide important information supporting the couple’s story.
Let’s run through some other examples of ideologic vegetarian extremism:
It caused mental and growth retardation in two boys underfed from birth to ages 3 and 5. Their mother had become a vegetarian, later eliminated sugar and dairy products from her diet, and eventually adopted a macrobiotic diet (see “Peculiar Vegetarianism” ). 4
Ten cases of nutritional rickets were reported among infants (most of whom were breast-fed) of strict-vegetarian mothers who had not sought medical counsel during pregnancy but had obtained advice from health food stores. 5
Scurvy and rickets occurred in two boys, 11/2 and 21/2 years old, whose parents were adherents of the Zen Macrobiotic diet (see Peculiar Vegetarianism below). 6
A 36-year-old former college professor attempted to become a “ breatharian” —one who supposedly feeds on air alone —and died of malnutrition. First he became a vegetarian, then a fruitarian, then a “ liquidarian” (consuming juices only), and finally, a would-be breatharian. 7
A 2-month-old boy died because his mother, following the invalid recommendation for colic in Adelle Davis’s Let’s Have Healthy Children, overdosed him with potassium. 8 In a television interview, the mother said that, as she became increasingly estranged toward conventional medicine, she had adopted vegetarianism and then veganism.
A 24-year-old woman who was head of San Jose State University’s student art program died after taking an extract of pennyroyal to induce an abortion. She was described as “a strict vegetarian who was involved in holistic medicine.” 9
For the ideologist, vegetarianism is a hygienic religion. It enables believers to practice self-denial. As a religion, vegetarianism attracts the guilt-ridden. It attracts masochists because it gives guilt a boost. And it seduces the unskeptical by causing guilt and/or by instilling false guilt. Guilt leads to self-denial, even asceticism. The belief that salvation is attainable by eschewing worldly pleasures marked the asceticism of early Christian zealots. Similarly, health neurotics with medical problems seem to believe that the more they restrict their alimentary pleasures, the more their health will improve. Fasting, austere diets, enemas, and the ingestion of bitter herbs are consistent with the psychological needs of health neurotics, many of whom shun those voices of conventional medicine and public health that might disenchant them.
Of course, I don’t blame ideologic vegetarianism per se entirely for tragedies such as those outlined above. Mental or emotional disorders apparently figure in many instances. In such cases, extremism is more to blame. This doesn’t take ideologic vegetarianism off the hook, however, for it can fuel or ignite psychological problems.
Eating by the Book?
SDA vegetarianism is rooted in the Bible, according to which for food God gave humans “all plants that bear seed everywhere on earth, and every tree bearing fruit that yields seed” (Genesis 1:29). Meat is said to have become a part of the human diet after the Flood, when all plant life had been destroyed: “Every creature that lives and moves shall be food for you” (Genesis 9:3). Adventists are taught that the introduction of meat into the human diet at that time decreased the human life span from the more than 900 years of the first humans to today’s “three-score and ten.”
However, the Bible warns against confusing dietary practices with moral behavior:
For the kingdom of God is not food and drink but righteousness and peace. (Romans 14:17)
Let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink. (Colossians 2:16)
One believes he may eat anything, while the weak man eats only vegetables, let not him who eats despise him who abstains, and let not him who abstains pass judgment on him who eats. (Romans 14:2-4)
It also seems to condemn vegetarianism:
The Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some in the church will turn away from Christ and become eager followers of teachers with devil inspired ideas. These teachers will tell lies with straight faces and do it so often that their consciences won’t even bother them. They will say that it is wrong to be married and wrong to eat meat, even though God gave these things to well-taught Christians to enjoy and be thankful for. For everything God made is good, and we may eat it gladly if we are thankful for it. ( I Timothy 4:1-4, Living Bible)
SDA Church pioneer Ellen G. White (1827Ð1915) was a proponent of vegetarianism even though she did not practice it herself. Like the Grahamites of her time, she taught that gradually the earth would become more corrupted, diseases and calamities worse, and the food —particularly animal foods —unsafe. In 1902 she wrote that the time might come when the use of milk should be discontinued. Although White was an advocate of science and chiefly responsible for making SDA healthcare a science-based enterprise, clearly she did not anticipate twentieth-century advances in public health and medical science. Despite the record longevity now enjoyed by people in the developed nations, vegetarian zealots within the church caught up in the doomsday hysteria of the 1990s have decided that the time has come to give up all animal foods and are fervidly preaching veganism.
East of Eden
It is possible to provide all essential nutrients except vitamin B12 without using animal foods. On the other hand, it is possible to provide all essential nutrients with a diet composed only of meat. Personal dietary appropriateness —including the value of a diet as a source of essential nutrients and its value as a preventative —for oneself and one’s significant others is the foremost dietary consideration of pragmatic vegetarians. In contrast, the overriding dietary consideration of ideologic vegetarians varies with the particular ideology. Typically, their motivation is a blend of physical, psychosocial, societal, and moral, often religious, concerns.
A continual problem for SDAs who espouse the “back to Eden” ideology is the absence of a non-animal food source of vitamin B12. A vegetarian Registered Dietitian who wrote a column for a church periodical asked me if I thought vegans could derive vitamin B12 from organic vegetables that were unwashed before ingestion. I opined that it would be better to eat animal foods than fecal residues. She agreed.
A perennial assumption among vegetarians is that vegetarianism increases longevity. In the last century, Grahamites —devotees of the Christian “hygienic” philosophy of Sylvester Graham (1794-1851) —taught that adherence to the Garden of Eden lifestyle would eventuate in humankind’s reclamation of the potential for superlongevity, such as that attributed to Adam (930 years) or Methuselah (969 years). I discussed this matter 25 years ago with an SDA physician who was dean of the Loma Linda University (LLU) School of Health. Although he admitted that lifelong SDA vegetarians had not exhibited spectacular longevity, he professed that longevity of the antediluvian sort might become possible over several generations of vegetarianism. SDA periodicals publicize centenarians and often attribute their longevity to the SDA lifestyle. However, of 1200 people who reached the century mark between 1932 and 1952, only four were vegetarians. 10 I continue to ask: Where on Earth is there an exceptionally longevous population of vegetarians? Hindus have practiced vegetarianism for many generations but have not set longevity records. At best, the whole of scientific data from nutrition-related research supports vegetarianism only tentatively. The incidence of colorectal cancer among nonvegetarian Mormons is lower than that of SDAs. 11 A review of populations at low risk for cancer showed that World War I veterans who never smoked had the lowest risk of all. 12 As data accumulate, optimism that diet is a significant factor in cancer appears to be diminishing. An analysis of 13 case-control studies of colorectal cancer and dietary fiber showed that, for the studies with the best research methods, risk estimates for dietary fiber and colorectal cancer were closer to zero.13 A pooled analysis of studies of fat intake and the risk of breast cancer that included SDA data showed no association. 14
A meatless diet can facilitate weight control because it is a form of food restriction. But one need not eliminate meat to maintain a healthy weight, and there are many overweight vegetarians. Surely prudence and selectivity overshadow mere abstention from consuming animal products.
Daniel’s Diet
According to the first chapter of the Book of Daniel, Israel’s captive whiz kids —“ well favored, and skillful in all wisdom, and cunning in all knowledge, and understanding science” (verse 4) —after subsisting on just vegetables and water for ten days, impressed the Babylonian king as far superior to all the magicians and astrologers “ in all matters of wisdom and understanding” (verse 20). Many ideological vegetarians credit vegetables for group’s physical and mental improvement (see “A ‘Biblical’ Alternativist Method”). A more credible proposition is that abstention from drinking wine caused the improvement, which the story ascribes to God.
In an interview on the school’s Christian radio station in the mid-1970s, an LLU nutrition graduate student (who was not an SDA) claimed that vegetarianism produced superior intellects. To make her case, she stated:
Linus Pauling says that vitamin C improves intelligence. Vegetarians get more vitamin C in their diets than meat-eaters. The probable reason why George Bernard Shaw and Leo Tolstoy were brilliant was because they were vegetarians.
The interviewer agreed, extolling the health and intellect of vegetarians. That Adolf Hitler was a vegetarian went unmentioned during the interview. Also unmentioned was that Jesus Christ, Mohammed, and other eminent moralists were not vegetarians.
Animal behavioral scientists have noted that, to survive, meat-eating predators must outsmart their vegetarian prey. However, I believe that all such theories break down because of the difficulty of defining intelligence.
SDAs note that meat-eating predators such as wolves and lions have tremendous speed but lack endurance. However, Arctic sled dogs that run the 1200-mile Ididarod cover more than a hundred miles per day —a feat no horse, mule or ox can accomplish.
The idea that vegetarians have superior physical endurance was reinforced in 1974 when a group of male vegetarian runners called “the vegetarian seven” set a 24-hour distance record. This inspired an undergraduate dietetics major to seek me out as a coach for a group of seven female vegetarian long-distance runners. I asked her what their motivations were —something every coach needs to know. She said they wanted to demonstrate the superiority of a vegetarian diet. I asked who would be representing the meat-eaters. She said that, because the event would not be a standard competition, no one would represent the meat-eaters. I revealed to her that three of the male runners had not been vegetarians until training for the record-setting event but merely had pledged to become so. I also told her: that genetic factors, principally the capacity for oxygen uptake, determine distance-running ability; that whether a diet is vegetarian is inconsequential to distance-running ability; and that a 24-hour run is a perilous way to try proving vegetarian superiority. “What will you do,” I inquired, “ if seven meat-eating, beer-drinking atheists who are world-class runners decide to beat your record?” She got the point. And although she became an accomplished amateur runner, she didn’t use her success to propagandize for vegetarianism.
John Harvey Kellogg sought to prove that vegetarians were physically superior by fielding a Battle Creek College football team, which he personally coached. According to a former player, “Brother” Wright, whenever Kellogg’s players lost, he railed at them for cheating on their diets and held them captive until one would say he had broken training rules and eaten meat. Wright stated that sometimes a player would eventually lie that he had eaten meat just to get the team released. He described Kellogg’s efforts as “a crusade to prove the superiority of vegetarianism.” Ellen G. White’s condemnation of this approach to proving SDA superiority led to a policy restricting interscholastic sports by Adventist schools.
Odorless Doo-doo?
The John Harvey Kellogg character in the 1995 film Road to Wellville stated that his feces had no more odor than that of “freshly baked biscuits.” One evening I offered a ride home from the university to an elderly colleague, an avid vegetarian. Upon entering my car, he declared: “When I drink carrot juice, my bowel movements have no odor.”
Before I could respond, he said: “Rabbits eat lots of carrots, and their feces have no odor.” The thought of someone running around sniffing little piles of rabbit doo-doo almost made me laugh, but I didn’t want to be disrespectful. His idea that rabbits eat many carrots intrigued me. I had raised them in my boyhood and discovered that, despite the passion for carrots shown by Bugs Bunny, real bunnies are not particularly fond of carrots. Furthermore, wild rabbits seldom would have an opportunity to eat carrots. Luckily the ride was short.
The late Pulitzer Prize-winning anthropologist Ernest Becker argued that defecation is most closely associated with humankind’s animality and mortality. 15 During a Bible class at an SDA school, I was taught that people did not defecate in the Garden of Eden but utilized the food they ingested in its entirety. Apparently, foul odors did not befit Paradise. (Perhaps the persistence of the miasmatic theory of disease —the theory that diseases are due to foul-smelling emanations from the earth —well into the nineteenth century, when SDA beliefs were developed, reinforced the idea of a poopless Paradise.) I was also taught that roughage became part of the human diet after the Fall. Allegedly, this broadening of the diet to include “the herb of the field” (Genesis 3:18, King James version) occurred because humans were now under the “ death sentence” caused by original sin. Whether this reportedly was a voluntary dietary change or part of the curse of being ousted from Paradise is debatable. Some versions of the Bible imply that “the herb of the field” merely meant “wild foods” (New English Version), not a new source of food.
Heavy “PETAing”
In the last century, the pacifist movement was vegetarian because of the belief that meat-eating animals were fierce and vegetarian animals were docile. The British poet Percy Bysshe Shelley claimed that the French revolution had been bloody and the English revolution bloodless because the French ate more meat than the English. 16 Such invalid notions have been discredited, but not abandoned. Some boxers still eat raw meat or drink blood before a fight to increase their aggressiveness.
People who fancy themselves morally superior often have a mission to convert humanity to their worldview. The most violent ideologic vegetarians are the animal-rights activists, who have destroyed animal research facilities and threatened researchers’ lives. Animal-rights groups such as People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) consider animals on par with humans. On April 24, 1996, PETA’s Ingrid Newkirk appeared on the television newsmagazine Day & Date opposing sport fishing. She began her argument by seeking commiseration for suffocating fish. Then she said that fish were unhealthful food because they contained mercury and other environmental contaminants. The solution, according to Newkirk, was vegetarianism. Her opponent, a TV talk-show host, pressed her into acknowledging the PETA creed. The talk-show host described an on-air encounter she had had with another PETA representative. A scenario had been presented in which the representative’s daughter needed a vital organ from a beloved household pet in order to survive. The ethical question had been whether the child’s life was worth more than the pet’s. The PETA representative had held that the child had no more value than the pet. Newkirk did not contest the assertion that PETA considers the life of a child no more valuable than that of a pet.
When an LLU medical team transplanted a baboon’s heart into an infant whose pseudonym was “Baby Fae,” animal-rights activists picketed the medical center. They seemed disillusioned with SDAs, who have no qualms about prioritizing humans over animals. In October 1992, after a pig’s liver had been transplanted into a 30-year-old woman to enable her to survive until a human liver was secured, a representative of PCRM engaged in a televised debate with one of the physicians who had performed the transplant. The representative lamented that the pig’s consent had not been obtained.
PCRM appears to be largely a personal forum for its leader, Neal Barnard, M.D., and is said to be substantially funded by PETA. (In fiscal year 1994, donations and grants to PCRM reportedly totaled more than a million dollars. 17) Barnard extols the longevity value of vegetarianism. He has claimed: “It’s not genetics or fate that gives people long, healthy lives and cuts other people short; for those who want to take care of themselves, it all comes down to diet.” The surgeon argued that pigs were killed daily for meat, including their livers. The PCRM doctor retorted that the consumption of animal fat (which is highly saturated) was responsible for most deaths in modern society. He cited a study conducted by Colin Campbell in China. Campbell had focused on the relative morbidity for certain diseases without pointing out that life expectancy in China (66 years) is lower that that in the United States (75 years). 18
Because they consider themselves morally superior, many vegetarians exhibit no reservations against using mind-control techniques or terrorism to actualize their agenda. Mind control includes using information selectively to “educate” people about the alleged superiority of vegetarianism. It may also include traumatizing people emotionally to condition them against the use of animal foods. Early in my teaching experience, I attended a meeting of SDA secondary school health teachers where many said that they converted students to vegetarianism by taking them on field trips to slaughterhouses to witness the bloodshed. This strategy offended me even though I was a practicing vegetarian at the time. Having studied for years how people have been manipulated by cults and quacks, it is now clear to me that the slaughterhouse tactic is a form of mind control —that it is as unethical as discouraging little girls from having sex by inducing them to watch a difficult childbirth.
Terrorism involves trying to coerce people to behave in ways the perpetrators desire. In December 1994, to keep people from having turkey for Christmas dinner, self-described animal-rights terrorists claimed they had injected rat poison into supermarket turkeys in Vancouver, British Columbia. The scare caused the destruction of more than $1 million in turkeys. Apparently, the activists had not foreseen the ensuing slaughter of turkeys as replacements.
Disclosure
Research into vegetarianism by vegetarians always involves at least unconscious bias. All humans have entrenched beliefs —beliefs whose rootedness makes doing related scientific research unwise. Kenneth J. Rothman, Dr.P.H., referred to SDAs in a recent discussion of conflicts of interest in research:
We might expect conflict of interest concerns to be raised, for example, about Seventh Day Adventists who are studying the health effects of the comparatively abstemious lifestyle of their fellow Adventists. Whereas policies at [the Journal of the American Medical Association] and The New England Journal of Medicine emphasize financial conflicts, Science asks authors to divulge “any relationships that they believe could be construed as causing a conflict of interest, whether or not the individual believes that is actually so.” In other words, to comply with disclosure policies at Science, authors might need to disclose to editors their religion and sexual orientation along with their financial portfolio. 19
Although Rothman argues for letting work standing on its own merit rather than judging cynically any possible connection to a funding source, his example makes the point that motivations more powerful than money can distort data. Science fraud can be extremely difficult to detect, because the perpetrators control the information. As Mark Twain observed, “Figures don’t lie, but liars figure!”
I don’t believe that all research done by vegetarians is untrustworthy. My experience with the ongoing Seventh-day Adventist Health Study (SDAHS), a series of studies conducted from LLU School of Public Health, has been largely positive. Its chief researcher, the late Roland Phillips, M.D., Dr.P.H., was an outstanding scientist in whose objectivity I had the utmost confidence. He recognized the problem of the influence of social expectations on SDAs responding to questions about their lifestyle. Adventist groupthink makes it likely that SDAs will underreport activities disfavored by the church community (e.g., meat-eating, coffee drinking, and imbibing) and over-report those that are approved (e.g., dining meatlessly and exercising). Phillips seemed to feel that the benefits of vegetarianism per se were limited, and that one must take account of heredity, socioeconomic status, and the total SDA lifestyle. Abstention from smoking, access to state-of-the-art healthcare, and strong social support probably are responsible for most of the health benefits SDAs enjoy. The main problem with SDA vegetarian science is how the scientific information is used. To paraphrase an old Pennsylvania Dutch saying: Among SDAs, when the news about vegetarianism and health is good, “we hear it ever” ; when the news is not good, “we hear it never.”
I have received numerous reports from SDA health professionals, and have personal knowledge of other cases, in which church members’ overconfidence in vegetarianism prevented them from obtaining effective medical care. Some reports have involved true believers in vegetarianism who were members of physicians’ families. Some denied symptoms, and their denial kept them from seeking effective intervention in time. Others rejected medical care for “natural remedies” that emphasized diet. The attitudes evidenced are consistent with those identified in cancer patients who had turned to quackery because they believed they had brought the disease upon themselves and could cure it by “natural” practices. 20 The SDA Church has bent over backward to document the benefits of the SDA lifestyle and to persuade members to adopt vegetarian diets. I would like to see the church seek earnestly to expose the harm that its vegetarian teachings have caused its members. Alas, there’s the rub with ideologic vegetarianism: Objectivity always takes a back seat to proselytism.
The data suggest that most SDAs are reasonable in their approach to vegetarianism. In the 1970s, the SDAHS revealed that only one percent were vegans. 21 This may change as vegetarianism becomes more popular in the general population. SDAs tend to be overachievers. If we regard something as “good,” we strive to adopt it completely. If we consider something “bad,” we avoid it completely. SDA vegetarian evangelists have become more aggressive in recent years because of the widespread belief in the SDA community that doomsday is nigh.
I recall an SDA church leader’s fitting reply to the question of whether he ate meat: “I eat just enough to keep me from becoming a fanatic!”
One Less “Ism”
I gave up vegetarianism because I found that commitment thereto meant surrendering the objectivity that is essential to the personal and professional integrity of a scientist. As a health educator, I feel I have an obligation to endeavor to stick to whatever unvarnished facts scientific research uncovers. I can support pragmatic vegetarianism, but I believe that crusading vegetarian ideologues are dangerous to themselves and to society.
ACSH advisor William T. Jarvis, Ph.D., is a professor of public health and preventive medicine at Loma Linda University, founder and president of the National Council Against Health Fraud, and coeditor of The Health Robbers: A Close Look at Quackery in America (1993). This article is an adaptation of one published by Prometheus Books (Amherst, New York) in the November/December 1996 issue of Nutrition & Health Forum newsletter.

Good to hear from you Larry after such a lengthy absence. I for one have missed your frequent posts of past. Stay healthy and well Larry what ever you do. wink

Louis-Simon Ouellet,

Congratulations on your weight loss!! Keep up the good work Louis! You're such a handsome guy how could your future wife be anything less than proud of not only your effort to lose weight but the fact that she's marrying such a handsome fiancé! wink May you have many, many years of wedded bliss together.

Best regards,
Mike

PS: Is that my Boat I see in the background of one of those pictures? smile Looks a little similar anyway. That reminds me; I've got to start thinking about getting it out on the water again sometime soon. Bottom fishing is just starting to take off here on the Eastern Pacific Ocean in San Diego, CA. Those Bass, Cod, and Halibut are mighty fine eating too. wink

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#118876 - 10/16/03 07:47 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Alex K Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/99
Posts: 731
Loc: Phoenix, AZ USA
Mike,

If you could break it in a number of readable-size chunks, you could beat Uncle Dave in the number of posts.

Regards,
Alex
_________________________
Regards,
Alex

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#118877 - 10/16/03 08:07 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
ChicoBrasil Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/01
Posts: 993
Loc: Belo Horizonte,Minas Gerais,Br...
Mike.

My testimony is not based in books; is my proper experience. I am overcoming the battle against my cancer(spino celular) with a very HARD vegetarian diet. It is not a conjecture.
It is my reality.

Chico

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#118878 - 10/16/03 09:01 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 15630
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Atkins has worked very well for my wife and me. I've lost nearly 50 pounds, and she has lost about 30. She has been able to eliminate her blood pressure medicine, which she was on for more than two years.
I've slowly added enough carbs back in to maintain what I've lost, and I'm not gaining it back. We have just joined a health club and will begin working out, but I've had practically no exercise other than loading equipment every day.
DonM
_________________________
DonM

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#118879 - 10/16/03 09:17 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 11106
Loc: Philadelphia Pa, USA
Wow....did anyone actually READ Mikes diatribe? Too long for me. Hope I didn;t miss anything good.
Atkins since July 21st:
down 35 lbs
energy WAY up
chothes at least a size smaller, sometimes 2 sizes - Everything is loose on me.( I don't remember EVER saying that b4)

I am sticking to the strict side of the induction phase with minor modifications, and only rarely. When I get hungry ... it's celery, hard boiled eggs, or a 2 carb Atkins shake that keeps me at bay till the next meal.
I can't knock it ..... Even at my ritzy affairs .... there is always a healthy, low carb way to eat without making me look like an outcast. I haven't had a piece of bread except for the (communion host at Mass) since the summer and I haven't touched any sweets either.
That's HUGE for me.
Fortunaly, I no longer am!

(There's a roast beef in the crock pot as we speak ..... gettin ready to be my dinner ! )
_________________________
Everyone, and everything I listen to is my teacher. Every instrument, every voice, every sound in nature ... they are all my private tutor ... 24/7 for free.

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#118880 - 10/16/03 11:16 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 14302
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Drink more beer--it's good for you. Look at the ingredients. It's same thing that's in Wheaties. The only difference is fermentation. Thanks you Adolph Coors.

Cheers from a fat, old man,

Gary
_________________________
PSR-S950, Bose L1 Compact, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, Morgan 33 Out Island Sailboat, and lots of other silly stuff!

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#118881 - 10/16/03 11:50 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Anonymous
Unregistered


In a previous thread I wrote about how skeptical I am about Atkins (and other radical diets): http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/006445.html

Loosing weight in a healthy manner is extremely easy if one has the will. Just follow the main guidelines, reducing all foods that bring lots of calories: sugars, everything fried, somes kinds of fat. I essencially modified my eating habits. Less fat sauces, cheese, milk, red meat, more fish, a much bigger amount of vegetables, fruits, moderation of carbohydrates if I'm really into reducing weight. I'm not a vegetarian, but I can perfectly live without meat (and in fact I eat less and less meat). Well cooked vegetarian food is delicious! And I've know many vegetarians (by religious belief), all of them where healthy and fit. And apart from being healthier (so I believe), it's also much better for the environment.

-- José.

[This message has been edited by matias (edited 10-16-2003).]

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#118882 - 10/16/03 12:16 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 15630
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
There are almost as many opinions about proper diet as there are people. You can find "valid" research to suppost just about anything, and also rebuttals for all that information. I just know what worked (works) for me.
DonM
_________________________
DonM

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#118883 - 10/16/03 12:41 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Idatrod Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/02
Posts: 562
Loc: Oceanside, CA USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Dave:
Wow....did anyone actually READ Mikes diatribe? Too long for me. Hope I didn;t miss anything good.


It's ALL good Dave.

Sorry for the lengthy article but I felt I should post the whole thing instead of bits and pieces. Posting the 'whole' article says it 'all' IMO. And the facts speak for themselves really.

Posted originally by ChicoBrasil:

"I am overcoming the battle against my cancer(spino celular) with a very HARD vegetarian diet. It is not a conjecture.
It is my reality."

More power to you Chico! I would try any avenue I could to beat that terrible disease.
I hope you get well very soon!! My deepest regards to you and and your family through this difficult time in your life. Be strong and courageous Chico. I expect you to whip this thing.

Best regards,
Mike

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#118884 - 10/16/03 12:45 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sure, Don, and I surely do not claim to have the most valuable opinion here. Besides, I'm no doctor, and even among experts, the controversy is generalized.

My only points are:

* Not everything that "works" (or seems to work) is good for me. In a lot of domains there are many ways to answer a specific question. I need to understand HOW it works, before I decide if it's good or not for me.

* I will not choose a radical, expensive and potencially dangerous diet when I know I can achieve the same results in a natural, free, and risk free manner.

I know Aktins and many other diets work for a lot of people. That's why it's so popular, and that's why the man became a millionary. But there's no miracle in it, and it's not the best way to be healthy (IMO, of course. I'm only a non expert guy that makes up his mind with the data he gets to understand.

-- José.

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#118885 - 10/16/03 12:48 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Mike: I'm going to read your post tonight, before going to sleep. Very curious about the content...

-- José.

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#118886 - 10/16/03 12:59 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 15630
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Jose, that's your opinion, and I respect it. I find it IS healthy and have researched it in depth. I find most people who knock the Adkins method have not even read the book. Anyway, I'm not trying to persuade anyone else to do it, and I'm finished discussing it.
Thanks,
DonM
_________________________
DonM

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#118887 - 10/16/03 02:33 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Tony W Offline
Member

Registered: 12/04/99
Posts: 836
Loc: Lancaster UK
My partner is vegetarian, I am not nor could I be. We have been together for eleven years in November and that is eleven years of making a meat meal and a veggie meal. We always (work permitting) eat together and I have to say the veggie meals are just as varied as my meaty meals. In our house it is a case of live and let eat
Best to all
Tony

------------------
www.tonywmusic.co.uk

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#118888 - 10/16/03 03:29 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10427
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
I've tried becoming a vegetarian (with diary, tofu & beans to supply 'balanced' protein requirements), but without my fix of red meat, began to quickly feel weak & tired within a couple of days. I had heard somewhere (rumor?) that there's some unique ingredient (essential amino acid?) in red meat not found in other foods that we need. Is this true? Is my desire (craving?) for meat merely a withdrawal symptom of an addiction to meat which will eventually pass, or is there some special ingredient in meat that we humans need to sustain a healthy life? - Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 10-16-2003).]
_________________________

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#118889 - 10/16/03 03:46 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Scottyee:
I've tried becoming a vegetarian (with tofu & beans to supply 'balanced' protein requirements) but without at least an occasional fix of red meat, begin to feel weak & tired within a couple of days. I had heard somewhere (rumor?) that there's a unique ingredient (essential amino acid?) in red meat not found in other foods that we need. Is this true? Is my desire (craving?) for meat merely a withdrawal symptom which will eventually pass, or is there some unique ingredient in meat that's needed for us to sustain a healthy life?


To my knowledge there isn't one single nutrient present in red meat that can't be found on other types of food (this includes white meat). But there is one vitamin (B12) that cannot be found in animal foods (so pure vegetarians should take a suplement of this vitamin). In most cases, however, the real problem is not the absence of a specific nutrient in a diet, but the sustained (in a long enough period of time) insufficient quantity of some nutrients provided by a combination of foods in a diet.

I'll be back to comment on the article posted by Mike!

-- José.

[This message has been edited by matias (edited 10-16-2003).]

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#118890 - 10/16/03 06:38 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Idatrod Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/02
Posts: 562
Loc: Oceanside, CA USA
Quote:
Originally posted by matias:
But there is one vitamin (B12) that cannot be found in animal foods (so pure vegetarians should take a suplement of this vitamin).
I'll be back to comment on the article posted by Mike!

-- José.


Of course José means "cannot be found in 'plant' foods" not as he has stated 'animal' foods.

Animal foods, ie., Red meat, White meat, and many types of Fish, "DO" contain valuable sources of vitamim B12 whereas plant food sources contain NO vitamin B12. That is the reason vegetarians need to supplement their diets with vitamin B12. Cereals fortified with vitamin B12 is only a marginal way to add Vitamin B12 to the diet. Vegetarians should seriously consider Vitamin B12 supplements to get an adequate amount of Vitamin B12 in their diet.

To Scott Yee: The reason you felt lethargic and even dizzy when you were strictly on a Vegetarian diet Scott is because - Yes, there is something "missing" in a Vegetarian diet that all humans need that they can't get with a Vegetarian only diet and that is Vitamin B12. Even those that DO eat Red meat, etc., could still possibly be at risk of not getting enough Vitamin B12 in their diet. Read on for further enlightenment:

Vegetarian Diet and B12 Deficiency

Vitamin B12 Deficiency Seen in All Types of Vegetarians

By Sid Kirchheimer
WebMD Medical News Reviewed By Michael Smith, MD
on Wednesday, June 18, 2003

June 18, 2003 -- Researchers have long known that a strict vegetarian diet -- one that excludes all animal products -- can lead to vitamin B-12 deficiency, and possibly heart disease. Now, new research suggests that even those who follow a more lenient vegetarian diet are also at risk.

In the July issue of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, German researchers tracked 174 apparently healthy people living in Germany and the Netherlands.

They found that 92% of the vegans they studied -- those who ate the strictest vegetarian diet, which shuns all animal products, including milk and eggs -- had vitamin B12 deficiency. But two in three people who followed a vegetarian diet that included milk and eggs as their only animal foods also were deficient. Only 5% of those who consumed meats had vitamin B12 deficiency.

Take Heart

The problem: Vitamin B12 deficiency can boost blood levels of homocysteine, an amino acid implicated as a strong risk factor for heart disease and stroke. Studies have suggested that high homocysteine levels can promote blockages in arteries over time, possibly leading to heart disease and stroke.

"As the number of vegetarians is increasing worldwide, we have special concerns about some health aspects of this diet," lead researcher Wolfgang Herrmann, MD, PhD, tells WebMD. "We have a particular concern over vitamin B12 status being regularly monitored in vegetarians -- most importantly, in pregnant women, nursing mothers, children of vegetarian mothers and on macrobiotic diets, elderly vegetarians, and people who already have atherosclerosis."

Unlike some other B vitamins, B12 is not found in any plant food other than fortified cereals. It is, however, abundant in many meats and fish, and in smaller amounts in milk and eggs. This makes it difficult for people following a strict vegetarian diet to get the necessary amount of vitamin B12.

Meat Eaters: This Includes You

Even young, healthy, vitamin-taking meat-eaters may not be getting enough B12, according to Tufts University nutritionist Katherine Tucker, PhD.

In a study published three years ago, also in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, she found that nearly 40% of 3,000 adults under age 50 had blood levels of vitamin B12 low enough to cause problems.

"There were very few vegetarians in our study, and a lot were taking vitamin supplements," she tells WebMD. "There really seem to be a lot of absorption problems, even in younger people. One theory is the increased use of antacids may be blocking the absorption of B12."

The good news: It is virtually impossible to consume too much B12, since it has a very low potential for toxicity. According to the Institute of Medicine, "No adverse effects have been associated with excess vitamin B12 intake from food and supplements in healthy individuals."

Tucker's advice: "If you are a vegetarian and have been for a long time, if you are taking antacids, or are getting older and may be having some problems, or are just concerned, you can safely take vitamin supplements at levels of 500 to 1,000 micrograms (1 milligram). Fortified cereals may not be enough."

Your Body and Vitamin B12

Vitamin B12 helps maintain healthy nerve and red blood cells and is also needed to make DNA, which is why it's especially important that pregnant and nursing women consume enough.

Vitamin B12 deficiency leads to anemia. Symptoms of vitamin B12 deficiency, which usually come on gradually, include fatigue, weakness, nausea, and constipation. Long-term and severe vitamin B12 deficiency can lead to nerve changes such as numbness, tingling in the hands and feet, balance and memory problems, and depression.

A blood test is the best way to test for vitamin B12 deficiency, and Herrmann recommends that all vegetarians get tested every year.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SOURCES: American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, July 2003. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, February 2000. USDA Nutrient Database. NIH Clinical Center website. Wolfgang Hermann, MD, PhD, professor, department of Clinical Chemistry, Saarland University Hospital, Homburg, Germany. Katherine Tucker, PhD, associate professor of nutritional epidemiology, Jean Mayer Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at Tufts University, Boston.

Best regards,
Mike






[This message has been edited by Idatrod (edited 10-16-2003).]

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#118891 - 10/17/03 03:13 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Beakybird Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/27/01
Posts: 2154
I think that the best health indicator is longevity. Vegetarians benefit from greater longevity. Perhaps 1 1/2 - 2 years. See: http://www.ivu.org/oxveg/Talks/veglongevity.html. They cite a study that includes thousands of cohorts and takes into account that vegetarians in industrialized countries are generally more affluent and have other healthier lifestyles.

Here is a list of vegetarians who hardly suffered from lethargy:

Carl Lewis, “Olympian of the Century,” Olympic medalist in track
Ruth Heidrich, Ironman triathlete, age-group record holder
Martina Navratilova, tennis champion
Desmond Howard, Heisman trophy winner
Stan Price, world-record holder in bench press
Bill Walton, NBA Hall of Famer
Phoebe Mills, Olympic medal-winning gymnast
Billie Jean King, tennis champion
Bill Manetti, powerlifting champion
Bill Pearl, four-time Mr. Universe and bodybuilder
Al Oerter, discus thrower and winner of four Olympic gold medals
Keith Holmes, WBC World Middleweight Champion
Robert Parish, one of the NBA’s “50 Greatest Players”
Jack LaLanne, fitness legend and media star
Edwin Moses, two-time Olympic Gold medalist in hurdles

Source: Vegetarian Times Magazine

In my spiritual organization, I have two friendly acquaintances, the ex US ping pong champion who represented the USA in a previous olympics, and a German who received the silver medal in the 1976 Olympics. These men were hardly victims of lethargy.

As to B12, dairy in the diet provides B12. Most multivitamines contain much more than the USDA requirement.

The Atkins diet works for some because taking cheap carbs and cheap sugars out of the diet will help you lose weight. A healthy vegetarian diet without white sugar, white rice, and white flour is very conducive to weight loss.

There is single lifestyle choice more powerful one can do to end world hunger and help the planet than becoming vegetarian. If you think of all the pollution caused by livestock farming (including farting cows), the energy used, the water consumed, the vegetable matter used, and the agrible land utilized, it is astounding. As I have stated, 7 times more land to feed an omnivore.

There are important ethical considerations as well that I do not want to go into.

Anyway, I would just like to underscore that going veggie is one lifestyle choice that is more healthy, more environmentally sound, and more ethical.

I know non-veggies that have virtues far beyond mine. I just want to emphasize that I think that this is a good choice.

Beakybird

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#118892 - 10/17/03 05:39 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Idatrod:
Of course José means "cannot be found in 'plant' foods" not as he has stated 'animal' foods.


Of course, Mike, thanks for the correction!

Quote:
Why I Am Not a Vegetarian
by Dr. William T. Jarvis


Well, I read the article, and I think the title (and introduction) doesn't reflect the message of his article. Along the article he explains why he's not an *SDA vegetarian*. It's mostly about ideological vegetarianism and their claimed moral superiority and how he refutes "the package".

Vegetarian eating habits have great advantages, as the author recognizes in one of the first paragraphs. Personally, I am not radical about not eating meat. Eating less meat, weekly, makes me feel better, lighter (meat is relatively hard to process in the body), and it is widely accepted that *excessive* red meat consumption increases the probability of some serious health problems in the long term. A good vegetarian meal can be a delicious experience, and I try not to loose an opportunity to try a vegetarian restaurant. Unfortunately, in my country and particularly in my area - a very rural area where the meat has an exceptional quality - I don't get lucky very often!

Reading the article, I got the impression that the author has some kind of trauma with SDAs (Seventh-Day Adventist). I sort of understand why he feels the need to fight this kind of ideological vegetarianism. While living in Germany for a couple if years, some years ago, I (the most agnostic guy) fell in love with a girl from the SDA church, so I know what he is talking about. But discussing the moral questions is something different than discussing the benefits of a nutrition pattern with a higher percentage of foods derived from plants.

The other thing the author does not discuss - and it would be worth debating - is the ecological advantages of a nutrition less based on animal foods (again, I refuse all kinds of radicalism in this issue). However, this doesn't prevent him to try to ridicularize the "friends of mother earth" in the begining. Very interesting reading, Mike! Thanks for sharing these with us.

-- José.

[This message has been edited by matias (edited 10-17-2003).]

[This message has been edited by matias (edited 10-17-2003).]

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#118893 - 10/17/03 08:06 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Idatrod Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/02
Posts: 562
Loc: Oceanside, CA USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Beakybird:

Here is a list of vegetarians who hardly suffered from lethargy:

Carl Lewis, “Olympian of the Century,” Olympic medalist in track
Ruth Heidrich, Ironman triathlete, age-group record holder
Martina Navratilova, tennis champion
Desmond Howard, Heisman trophy winner
Stan Price, world-record holder in bench press
Bill Walton, NBA Hall of Famer
Phoebe Mills, Olympic medal-winning gymnast
Billie Jean King, tennis champion
Bill Manetti, powerlifting champion
Bill Pearl, four-time Mr. Universe and bodybuilder
Al Oerter, discus thrower and winner of four Olympic gold medals
Keith Holmes, WBC World Middleweight Champion
Robert Parish, one of the NBA’s “50 Greatest Players”
Jack LaLanne, fitness legend and media star
Edwin Moses, two-time Olympic Gold medalist in hurdles

Source: Vegetarian Times Magazine

As to B12, dairy in the diet provides B12. Most multivitamines contain much more than the USDA requirement.

Anyway, I would just like to underscore that going veggie is one lifestyle choice that is more healthy, more environmentally sound, and more ethical.

I know non-veggies that have virtues far beyond mine. I just want to emphasize that I think that this is a good choice.

Beakybird



Larry

The point is that all of those Athletes, etc., that you mentioned wouldn't have been able to accomplish what they did if they lacked Vitamin B12 in their diet. So to be a 'true' Vegetarian in every sense of the word is basically impossible. Dairy products are 'byproducts' of "animals". Vitamin B12 is NOT found in plant sources and the only way to obtain it is through "Animal" sources. Even Vitamin B12 "supplements" are from animal sources. So theoretically NOBODY IS a true Vegetarian because we all need Vitamin B12 in our Diet and the only way for anybody to get it IN their diet is from Dairy products (which are animal byproducts) or from animals themselves (including Vitamin B12 supplements, which are processed and made from animal sources.) Even fortified cereals that have been fortified with vitamin B12 receive their B12 fortification from 'animal' sources. So may I submit to you: a true Vegetarian there is NOT!, ie., - those who claim to abstain from "all" sources of Animal and animal 'byproducts'. I understand there are at least 5 categories of the term Vegetarian but each one has to have vitamin B12 in their diet which can only be obtained through animal sources. So the slaughter of animals goes on whether you're a Vegetarian or not [or whether you like it or not] so that people, ie., (the WORLD population) can get their adequate supply of B12. I'm amazed that even though the truth is plainly shown to people they still want to believe and even propagate a lie.

Characteristic signs of B12 deficiency include fatigue, weakness, nausea, constipation, flatulence (gas) [talk about Cows farting!!], loss of appetite, and weight loss [good way to lose weight and lose your health in the process!!]. Deficiency also can lead to neurological changes such as numbness and tingling in the hands and feet. Additional symptoms of B12 deficiency are difficulty in maintaining balance, depression, confusion, poor memory, and soreness of the mouth or tongue.

Best regards,
Mike

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#118894 - 10/17/03 09:18 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Idatrod Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/02
Posts: 562
Loc: Oceanside, CA USA
Also I wanted to post a couple articles regarding people on the List you gave Larry.

Notice if you will that Bill Walton IS eating meat again. There may be people who claim to be vegetarians but how long do they [claim] to stay Vegetarians?? One year?, five years?, one week?

"After achieving superstardom playing for John Wooden's powerhouse UCLA Bruins in the early '70s and winning three straight College Player of the Year Awards, Walton was destined to become an NBA legend. When he was healthy Walton had few peers.

He won the NBA Most Valuable Player Award while playing for the defending NBA-champion Trail Blazers in 1977-78. At the top of his form, Walton scored, passed, intimidated, hustled, and played the role of leader with the best centers of his day. He was a perfectionist whose range of skills and dedication never ceased to impress those who saw him play.

But dozens of injuries, most infamously a chronically broken bone in his left foot, robbed Walton of the storybook career that seemed sure to be his. During his 13 years in the league, he played in only 44 percent of regular-season contests and left the game with a modest 13.3 scoring average.

Walton first appeared on the national stage as a lanky college kid who exhibited a winning attitude on the court and an anti-establishment attitude off it. While at UCLA in the early '70s, he was arrested during an anti-Vietnam War rally, publicly criticized Richard Nixon and the FBI, and reportedly flirted with leaving basketball to pursue spiritual enlightenment. A fan of the Grateful Dead, the young Walton was a vegetarian, wore flannel shirts and multicolored headbands and toted his gym clothes in an onion bag.

After his arrest as a junior, Walton issued a statement that read: "Your generation has screwed up the world. My generation is trying to straighten it out.. Money doesn't mean anything to me. It can't buy happiness, and I just want to be happy."

Many who knew Walton, including Wooden himself, felt the young center was too susceptible to fringe ideas. "I had no problem with him during the season," Wooden told the Los Angeles Times. "Off the floor I worried. I worried when he was thrown in jail with the group that took over the administration building, I worried when he stopped traffic on Wilshire Boulevard, and when he interrupted classes giving his views on the Vietnam War."

Walton enjoyed a blazing start as a rookie, averaging 16.0 ppg, 19.0 rpg, 4.4 apg and 4.00 blocked shots in his first seven contests. Praise came quickly. "I was with the Boston Celtics when Russell came into the league," Lakers Coach Bill Sharman told the Los Angeles Times. "Walton is the same type of player. Extremely intelligent-but besides that, he has tremendous basketball instinct."

Then came the injuries. Foot problems limited Walton to only 35 games as a rookie and a meager 12.8 ppg. Portland won 11 more games in 1974-75 than in the previous year but failed to live up to its potential, largely because of Walton's health troubles.

Portland fell to the bottom of the Pacific Division in 1975-76, though Walton started to come into his own, scoring 16.1 ppg, pulling down 13.4 rpg and demonstrating excellent passing skills from the low- or high-post in 51 contests. Still, foot problems continued to hamper the young center, and fans started wondering what the Blazers had gotten themselves into. During his first two years in Portland, Walton had sprained an ankle, broken his left wrist twice and dislocated two toes and two fingers. He even broke a toe on a water sprinkler and hurt his leg in a jeep accident.

His foot deadened by a painkilling injection, Walton attempted a comeback in the playoffs against the Seattle SuperSonics. Then came what many felt was the death knell of Walton's career. After Game 2, X-rays showed that the navicular bone below Walton's left ankle was broken. The Trail Blazers lost the series in six games and the services of Walton forever.

The controversies that had embroiled Walton up to this point were mild compared to what would follow. After the playoffs Walton demanded to be traded and accused Portland management with providing him poor medical treatment. Doing the talking for Walton was controversial sports educator and activist Jack Scott, whose presence only made an already strange situation more bizarre. (Walton later sued the team; the case was settled out of court.)

Walton signed a then-record seven-year, $7 million contract to play with the Clippers, who had played just over .500 ball the year before. He cut his hair, started eating meat again, stopped hanging out with Jack Scott, trimmed his Lincoln-esque beard, and tried to mend fences with the press. "I'm a different person now than I was when I came into the NBA," he said in an interview with Sport magazine.

After the 1984-85 campaign Walton went shopping. He called on two of the league's premier teams, the Boston Celtics and the Los Angeles Lakers. After several Celtics said they liked the idea of having Walton as a teammate and as a backup for workhorses Robert Parish and Kevin McHale, Red Auerbach made the deal happen. He acquired Walton by sending popular forward Cedric Maxwell to the Clippers along with a first-round draft pick. Walton once again had the chance to play for a world champion, and his childhood hopes of playing for the Celtics were realized.

The former West Coast radical in lumberjack clothing found a home in the land of turtlenecks and penny loafers. Walton received a minute-long standing ovation from the Boston Garden crowd after walking onto the parquet floor at his first exhibition game. Celtics faithful would have plenty more to cheer about during what would become a dream season for the Celtics and the aging Walton.

Walton appeared in 80 games in 1985-86, 13 more than his previous career high. While playing only 19.3 minutes per contest, he averaged 7.6 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 2.1 apg and 1.33 bpg. He also set a career high with a .562 field-goal percentage. In one game he scored 20 points and pulled down 12 rebounds in just 26 minutes. During the season he was hampered only by a broken nose, the 13th of his 13-year career. Assuming an unfamiliar supporting role, the 33-year-old Walton was playing with the excitement of a college kid. And the league rewarded him with the NBA Sixth Man Award, won by McHale the previous two seasons.

With one of the strongest lineups in NBA history, Boston steamrolled through the regular season, compiling a 67-15 record. In the playoffs the Celtics lost only 3 of 18 games, defeating the Houston Rockets and their "Twin Towers," Ralph Sampson and Hakeem Olajuwon, in the Finals in six games.

Walton's satisfaction with capturing his second championship and winning the Sixth Man Award was immeasurable. In an article in the Boston Herald, McHale said of Walton: "You watch an old, old guy like that, with the most hammered body in sports, acting like a high school kid -- it's both funny and inspiring at the same time. Every game was a challenge, and he didn't let any of us forget that."


Tuesday, April 22, 2003
Carl Lewis arrested for DUI


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


By The Associated Press


LOS ANGELES - Nine-time Olympic gold medalist Carl Lewis was arrested for investigation of misdemeanor driving under the influence after a one-car accident early Monday.

The 41-year-old track star wasn't injured in the accident on Interstate 110 in South Los Angeles.

The California Highway Patrol found Lewis alone in a 2004 Maserati and noticed signs of alcohol intoxication, Officer Joseph Pace said.

Lewis failed a series of field sobriety tests and was arrested, Pace said. A breath test given later at a police station showed Lewis' blood-alcohol level was .08 percent, the level at which a driver is considered intoxicated in California.

Pace said it's possible Lewis struck a sound wall next to the freeway, because his car was damaged on the right side.

Lewis, who had a Texas driver's license, was released to a friend.

The case was scheduled for July 7 in Los Angeles Superior Court.

Best regards,
Mike

PS: It is common knowledge that people's mind set about Vegetarians is one of very Liberal, biased and even whacked out individuals. Could the reason be that they are portrayed that way is they are not receiving enough essential nutrients in their diet and because of it are exhibiting bizzare behaviors and shooting themselves in the foot? Just a thought.

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#118895 - 10/17/03 03:39 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
rattley Offline
Member

Registered: 11/14/99
Posts: 766
Loc: Punta Gorda Florida USA
My 2 cents (pounds?) worth on why I now weigh more than I should...........

1) I have ALWAYS loved to eat!
2) "Supersize it for 25 cents more"......
3) Food is EVERYWHERE now. Gas stations,
lumber yards, deli's everywhere......
4) All you can eat buffets.....This is NOT
meant as a challenge!!
5) Repeat 1 thru 4..................

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#118896 - 10/17/03 04:05 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
KN_Fan Offline
Member

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 481
I don't change my diet too much. Just cut my portion (from U.S portion to 'more international' portion). Hit the gym for 25 mins every other day. 15 cardio (10 minutes at 6-6.3 miles/hour) and lift weights for 10 minutes.

I'm at 177lbs (more muscle cause I know my spare tire is decreasing 5'8" tall.

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#118897 - 10/17/03 04:12 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by KN_Fan:
I don't change my diet too much. Just cut my portion (from U.S portion to 'more international' portion). Hit the gym for 25 mins every other day. 15 cardio (10 minutes at 6-6.3 miles/hour) and lift weights for 10 minutes.

I'm at 177lbs (more muscle cause I know my spare tire is decreasing 5'8" tall.


That seems to me a very wise and natural program. And with more muscle, your body will also burn more energy, so you're on the right track!

-- José.

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#118898 - 10/17/03 06:03 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Tony W Offline
Member

Registered: 12/04/99
Posts: 836
Loc: Lancaster UK
This study may be a little less scientific than Mikes but I like it.....

1. The Japanese eat very little fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans.

2. The Mexicans eat a lot of fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans.

3. The Italians drink excessive amounts of red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans.

4. The Japanese drink very little red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans

5. The Germans drink a lot of beers and eat lots of sausages and fats and suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans.

CONCLUSION: Eat and drink what you like. Speaking English is apparently what kills you.

Best wishes to all
Tony

------------------
www.tonywmusic.co.uk

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#118899 - 10/17/03 06:10 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10427
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
Quote:
Originally posted by KN_Fan:
I don't change my diet too much. Just cut my portion (from U.S portion to 'more international' portion). Hit the gym for 25 mins every other day. 15 cardio (10 minutes at 6-6.3 miles/hour) and lift weights for 10 minutes.


hi Jonas (KN_Fan) I think you 'hit the nail on the head' here. After discovering Weight Watchers (2 years ago) I too learned that in addition to regular exercise, it's maintaining food 'Portion CONTROL' that was the BIG key to me losing and maintaining my ideal weight again. I know use the Weight Watcher's Point system to help keep monitor what I take in each day. It may sound complicated to follow, but it's actually a real EASY system.

Another BIG problem is when dining out in restaurants. Have you guys noticed how HUGE the portions sizes have become over the years? They raise the prices but offset it by serving gigantic servings to make us feel we got our money's worth. Instead of eating everything on my plate, as Mom always lectured, I now make it a point to doggie bag 1/2 of it and take it home to enjoy the next day.

Scott
_________________________

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#118900 - 10/18/03 02:46 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Here is an example of a way to "look at food" that I particularly like, crossing the subject with travelling and cultural aspects (try the small videos in http://www.ocean.ca/?section=shows&sub=3 ).

-- José.

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#118901 - 10/18/03 06:13 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
nardoni2002 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/12/02
Posts: 673
Loc: malaga, spain
hi all maybe this is the final answer to all diets,this diet is the oldest and most efficient of ALL diets ,you can eat whatever you want and not gain any weight at all,one small snag,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,no swallowing,,,have fun and moderation in all things,mike

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#118902 - 10/18/03 04:09 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
brainiac Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/19/00
Posts: 19
Loc: Chicago IL USA
No swallowing?

Really..................................??

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#118903 - 10/18/03 09:11 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
BuleriaChk Offline
Member

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 53
Loc: Santa Barbara,CA,USA
After decades of research and experience I have finally figured out how to lose weight. There are two basic and inviolable principles which I will share with you.

1. Don't eat anything
2. Work your Ass off.

This is much easier, but ethically completely unacceptable if it is not done voluntarily...

And is one of the main arguements against loving, compassionate god (aside from the existence of the mosquito...) If god so loved the world, why could he have switched the tastes between Broccoli and Pizza...

[This message has been edited by BuleriaChk (edited 10-18-2003).]
_________________________
www.flamencochuck.com

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#118904 - 10/19/03 01:38 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Beakybird Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/27/01
Posts: 2154
I have to correct an erroneous statement mad by one of our members, that the foods fortified with vitamine b12 come from animal sources.

I did some web surfing, and this is what I found:

Origin of B12 in Supplements and Fortified Foods:

Streptomyces griseus, a bacterium once thought to be a yeast, was the commercial source of vitamin B12 for many years.8,9 The bacteria Propionibacterium shermanii and Pseudomonas denitrificans have now replaced S. griseus.10 At least one company, Rhone Poulenc Biochimie of France, is using a genetically engineered microorganism to produce B12.11.

Now I'm not that concerned about this anyway. Being a lacto-vegetarian (I eat dairy), I realize that some of the cheese I eat in restaurants has rennet which comes from cow intestine. My purpose in being vegetarian is to live in a way that I cause as little suffering as possible within practical limits. I don't wear a mask to stop bacteria from entering my mouth like many Jains do.

As I have asserted before, longevity is a good indicator of a health benefit. If a dietary choice adds a year or two to one's life, it is unlikely that it would make people weaker or think less clearly.

It wouldn't surprise me if not everyone on the star athlete list of vegetarians wasn't vegetarian every year of their life or that one or two would have a health problem. I don't even think that being vegetarian gives an athlete an edge. Most of the greatest athletes of all time were omnivores. But there are athletes in the top of their field who have chosen to be vegetarian and haven't suffered from decreased performance. Just like vegetarians need to be careful to get certain nutrients. Meat eaters, who have a propensity to get much more protein and fat than necessary, need to be extra careful to get foods with anti-oxidant vitamins. Most research I have heard about indicates that those who take anti-oxidant vitamin supplements don't receive any benefits, that the anti-oxidants must come from food sources.

As a musician, I have chosen a good vibes profession. I live to make others feel better. I think that the vegetarian diet is a good vibes diet. I spare many animals the pain of slavery and violent death. I leave life sustaining resources for my fellow earthlings to benefit from. I believe in "Live simply so that others may simply live."

Beakybird

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#118905 - 10/19/03 07:50 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 11106
Loc: Philadelphia Pa, USA
God gave us the animals to do what we wanted with. The food chain was not invented by McDonnalds, ya know.
_________________________
Everyone, and everything I listen to is my teacher. Every instrument, every voice, every sound in nature ... they are all my private tutor ... 24/7 for free.

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#118906 - 10/19/03 03:49 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Idatrod Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/02
Posts: 562
Loc: Oceanside, CA USA
Here we go again:

Myth: Vitamin B12 can be obtained from plant sources.

: Of all the myths, this is perhaps the most dangerous. Vegans who do not supplement their diet with vitamin B12 will eventually get anemia (a fatal condition) as well as severe nervous and digestive system damage (6). Claims are made that B12 is present in certain algae, tempeh (a fermented soy product) and brewer's yeast. All of them are false.

: Like the niacin in corn, the B12 analogues present in algae and tempeh are not bioavailable. We know this because studies done on people's blood levels of B12 remained the same after they ate spirulina and tempeh; there was no change, clearly indicating no absorption by the body (7). Further, the ingestion of too much soy increases the body's need for B12 (8). Brewer's yeast does not contain B12 naturally; it is always fortified from an outside source.

: Some vegetarian authorities claim that B12 is produced by certain fermenting bacteria in the intestines. This may be true, but it is in a form unusable by the body. B12 requires intrinsic factor from the stomach for proper absorption in the ileum. Since the bacterial product does not have intrinsic factor bound to it, it cannot be absorbed (9).

: It is true that vegans living in certain parts of India do not suffer from vitamin B12 deficiency. This has led some to conclude that plant foods do provide this vitamin. This conclusion, however, is erroneous as many small insects, their eggs, larvae and/or residue, are left on the plant foods these people consume, due to non-use of pesticides and inefficient cleaning methods. This is how these people obtain their vitamin B12. This contention is borne out by the fact that when Indian Hindus migrated to England, they came down with pernicious anemia within a few years. In England, the food supply is cleaner, and insect residues are completely removed from plant foods (10).
: The only reliable and absorbable sources of vitamin B12 are animal products, especially organ meats and eggs (11). Though present in lesser amounts, milk products do contain B12. Vegans, therefore, should consider adding dairy products into their diets. If dairy cannot be tolerated, eggs, preferably from free-run hens, are a virtual necessity.

: That vitamin B12 can only be obtained from animal products is one of the strongest arguments against veganism being a "normal" way of human eating. Today, vegans can avoid anemia by taking supplemental vitamins or fortified foods. If those same people had lived just a few decades ago, when these products were unavailable, they would have died.

: In my own practice, I recently saved two vegans from death from anemia by convincing them to eat generous amounts of dairy products. Both of these sickly gentlemen thought their B12 needs were being met by tempeh and spirulina. They weren't.

Nutrient facts:

Pernicious anemia results from a deficiency of vitamin B12, usually caused by a defect in the absorption of B12 in the intestine.
It is a widely held belief that vitamin B12 can be obtained from mushrooms, tempeh, miso and spirulina but this is not true. Vitamin B12 in a form that can be absorbed by humans is [only found in foods of animal origin].
Because vitamin B12 is only found in animal foods, vegans (strict vegetarians) are at risk of low B12 levels and anemia.

I am not against eating my vegetables Larry but I am concerned about not getting the right nutrients in the right amount absorbed and utilized for my body's health and well being. Apparently vegetarians lack of knowledge in this area has caused untold harm to millions of people, putting not only themselves at risk but also unwittingly putting the lives of their children and even their unborn at risk too.

Small Amounts of Animal Products Not Enough to Restore Optimal B12 Status

van Dusseldorp et al.102 (1999, Netherlands) investigated whether moderate consumption of animal products is sufficient for achieving normal B12 function in 73 adolescents (in good health) who had received a macrobiotic diet until 6 years of age and had then switched to a LOV or omnivorous diet. 94 nonvegetarian (NV) adolescents from birth were used as a reference. In macrobiotics, dairy products supplied on average 0.95 g B12/day.

Additionally, they consumed fish, meat, or chicken 2-3 times/week. Serum B12 was significantly lower and MMA, folate, and MCV were significantly higher in macrobiotics. Of macrobiotics, 21% had abnormal MMA levels, 10% had abnormal total homocysteine, and 15% had abnormal MCV (> 89 fl). Authors concluded that a substantial number of the formerly strict macrobiotic adolescents still had impaired B12 function.

Thus, moderate consumption of animal products is not sufficient for restoring normal B12 status in adolescents with inadequate B12 intake during the early years of life. They might need B12 intakes higher than recommended to obtain normal B12 status.


Even if you are eating Dairy products while your only other food comsumption is plant based foods be advised that you still may NOT be getting the required B12 that you need. More like be WARNED!

Vegetarians tale of B12 deficiency:

Normal level of B12 is apparently 160, problems start around 140. Tiredness numbness in tips of the limbs, hazy outlook on everything and a regular fainting feeling etc. I knew something was wrong. I had pernicious anemia. Not something to be enjoyed. I ended up requiring a round of B12 injections for a few weeks and some recovery time off from work. My levels shot up to 1100 and I broke out into a mass of acne. Within 8 weeks they were back down to 165. There is now concern my digestive system has been damaged.
Just be careful with your diet. Get tested to make sure, better to ensure you're safe than dying. Regardless to the fact I had no idea about B12, I ate tofu and tempeh weekly and became ill.

I would hate for you to wake up and realize that you're in a hospital somewhere with an irreversible and/or fatal neurological disorder or other condition that could have been prevented if your mind hadn't been blinded to the truth Larry. I care for you too much to not say anything to you and in a way would feel responsible if I didn't say anything. And I hope you wake up, smell the roses and once again face the facts, ie., reality.

Best regards,
Mike

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#118907 - 10/19/03 04:19 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Beakybird Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/27/01
Posts: 2154
1. If being a vegetarian is so dangerous, to what do you attribute the greater longevity for vegetarians compared to omnivores? To what do you attribute the lower levels of heart attacks, diabetes, cancers of many kinds, and even Alzheimers among vegetarians?

2. The B12 in food supplements and in processed food is from vegetarian sources. This I have ascertained.

I know several hundred vegetarians, many since birth, and they are a very healthy lot. One gentleman is 100 years old and still walks without a cane. I know some vegans too, who take supplements to get their B12, and they enjoy exceptional health as well. However, I have also heard of people getting carried away and getting sick from not getting adequate protein in their diet.

I enjoy excellent health and above average energy. I have vegetarian friends who are as strong as oxes.

The specious reasoning that Carl Lewis is vegetarian and had a dui which means that he has problems which means that vegetarians have problems demonstrates to me that you do not reason clearly.

Thank you, however, for alerting us vegetarians to the dangers of B12 deficiency.

Uncle Dave, I think that your suggestion that God gave us animals so that we can slaughter them is not well thought out. I believe that God gave us power so that we may protect the less helpless not hurt them. I believe that this goes for animals as well as children.

Beakybird

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#118908 - 10/19/03 04:31 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 15630
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Who was it that fed all those people with fish?
DonM
_________________________
DonM

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#118909 - 10/19/03 06:46 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Tony W Offline
Member

Registered: 12/04/99
Posts: 836
Loc: Lancaster UK
Captain Birdseye?

Tony (Well the Brits will know what I'm on about!)

------------------
www.tonywmusic.co.uk

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#118910 - 10/19/03 08:16 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 11106
Loc: Philadelphia Pa, USA
Wisely stated form another site:

" Humans make moral choices, have spiritual lives, and can relate to God in a unique way. God chose to make some creatures for the benefit of others. Animals and humans are not equal in the eyes of God. God chose to create animals for us. "

I don't know the actual verse, but I'm almost positive it exists. The decision to treat animals with "humanity" is a manmade one. There is a definate hierarchy in the animal kingdom. Man rules the nest.
_________________________
Everyone, and everything I listen to is my teacher. Every instrument, every voice, every sound in nature ... they are all my private tutor ... 24/7 for free.

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#118911 - 10/19/03 09:17 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10427
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
Quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Dave:
Animals and humans are not equal in the eyes of God.


Depends on what God you choose to believe in. Who has the market on the truth anyway? But if the Hindu's are right and Uncle Dave comes back as a cow we better hope he's in India.

Scott
_________________________

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#118912 - 10/19/03 10:37 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 15630
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
From diet to diety. I'm going back to talking about arranger keyboards.
DonM
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DonM

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#118913 - 10/20/03 01:00 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
eddiefromrotherham Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/02
Posts: 788
Loc: Rotherham,England.
Quote:
Originally posted by Tony W:
Captain Birdseye?

Tony (Well the Brits will know what I'm on about!)


Hi Tony
Nice one! I laughed so much I'm still trying to calm down




------------------
Eddie from Rotherham
www.yamahakeyboards.info

my mail is virus-free thanks to Norton Antivirus2002
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Eddie from Rotherham
http://www.music2myears.plus.com

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#118914 - 10/20/03 04:08 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Beakybird Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/27/01
Posts: 2154
Another kooky thing that Idatrod said is that people in India get their B12 from eating insects from their unwashed vegetables. I mean come on!

I know hundreds of people from India. My spiritual organization is centered in Chicago and New Delhi. I've been to India. I'm not the biggest fan of Indian food or the Indian lifestyle. Too much curry. Too much dangerous driving on narrow streets. But we have a lot of Indian friends here in Chicago and in parts of India, and I've washed pots while they have cooked many many times. Let me tell you that they don't eat bugs.

So your bugs in the vegetables does not wash. Those who eat dairy or get fortified B12 in vitamins or foods, have nothing to fear about anemia.

In fact, I came accross a US government study that studied B12 deficiency in Americans. They state:

Oddly, the researchers found no association between plasma B12 levels and meat, poultry, and fish intake, even though these foods supply the bulk of B12 in the diet. “It’s not because people aren’t eating enough meat,” Tucker said. “The vitamin isn’t getting absorbed.”

They go on to say that fortified B12 is more likely to get absorbed than B12 in meat because some people are not secreting the right stomach acids to release the vitamin.
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2000/000802.htm. So go figure!

Beakybird

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#118915 - 10/20/03 12:18 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
brickboo Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/04/01
Posts: 2068
Loc: Fruita, Colorado, USA
I just bought a new diet book. I may get it this week. Can't do the no toast with my eggs, no red beans and rice, no potatoes etc.

Maybe it will get me started again. The easiest is a low fat diet for me so far. I'm anxious to see what this one is about.

I don't believe in killing animals just to hang antlers on a wall. That can't be right.

Don, a local private pond here on my last three trips, I catch and keep 2 or 3 Bass and and 2 or 3 crappie and throw back about 6 or 8 anywhere from 45 minutes to 1 1/2 hours. That doesn't sound real does it? But it is true. I'm going this afternoon. It's the coolest weather here since last spring and I'm anxious to see what happens. I just was invited to fish ther this summer after I did a brick job for the rancher.

Oh! Oh! sorry I changed the subject.
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I'm not prejudiced, I hate everybody!! Ha ha! My Sister-In-Law had this tee shirt. She was a riot!!!

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#118916 - 10/20/03 02:11 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Idatrod Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/02
Posts: 562
Loc: Oceanside, CA USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Beakybird:
Another kooky thing that Idatrod said is that people in India get their B12 from eating insects from their unwashed vegetables. I mean come on!

I know hundreds of people from India. My spiritual organization is centered in Chicago and New Delhi. I've been to India. I'm not the biggest fan of Indian food or the Indian lifestyle. Too much curry. Too much dangerous driving on narrow streets. But we have a lot of Indian friends here in Chicago and in parts of India, and I've washed pots while they have cooked many many times. Let me tell you that they don't eat bugs.

Beakybird


On the contrary Beakybird those were not my words but the words of a well respected Naturopathy Doctor: Stephen Byrnes PHD RNCP ND.

Here is the link to his article:
http://www.westonaprice.org/myths_truths/myths_truths_vegetarianism.html

PS: The only thing kooky about this whole thing is your total lack of wisdom, knowledge and understanding of the truth.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink as the old adage goes; ie., "The truth can plainly be put before your eyes but only you can decide if you want to believe the truth or not. I'm through saying anymore to you. If you want to go ahead and believe a lie so be it. My conscience is clear of the matter. At least I had the guts and empathy to try to set you straight. Continue in your folly if you must but at least the truth (reality) HAS BEEN SHOWN to you. But apparently you like living in a fantasy world. I really take offense when you try and propagate your lie to possibly unsuspecting others though.

Mike

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#118917 - 10/20/03 03:26 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Starkeeper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 1704
Loc: Toronto
Vegetarians should take B12 supplements.
Star
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#118918 - 10/20/03 10:02 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Beakybird Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/27/01
Posts: 2154
Sorry for calling you kooky Mark. I appreciate your contributions about music and gear. But I beg to differ about your dietary beliefs.

If Indians need to get their B12 from bugs, then wealthier Indians who benefit from better sanitation would be suffering from B12 deficiency. This is not the case. B12 is found in dairy.

The Silk soy milk I drink is fortified with B12, 50% of the USDA per serving.

I am happy that I have chosen a diet that is likely to prolong my life. And if I do live to a ripe old age, being vegetarian halves my risk of getting Alzheimers - a loathesome disease. See http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/showflat/cat/health/37376/2/collapsed/5/o/1.

Beakybird

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#118919 - 10/20/03 10:22 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 15630
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Boo, congratulations on the fish. And I'm glad you changed the subject.
Max and I went out last weekend for a while but the steering cable on my boat snapped and now I have to try to repair it. It's always something.
I don't believe low fat diets work. Just eat less of everything. Most foods that say Low-fat, really mean High-sugar or high calorie.
Woops I forgot and discussed food again.
Don
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#118920 - 10/21/03 01:05 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
KN_Fan Offline
Member

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 481
Hey! We talk about arrangers all the time, it's nice to switch topics once in a while. After all we are all friends here!

I said it before- I said it again, everything in moderation. Heck, there was a time I felt like eating Chinese buffet on Friday night, Chinese dim sum on Saturday morning, and BLT, fruit shake and french fries on Sunday..ya know what..I DID! No biggie, by Monday I was on that treadmill and universal machine again, lifting weights

Splurge once in a while...rest of the time, behave and just nibble your favorite foods in moderation. Commit yourself to walking (3.5-4 miles/hour for 20 minutes)and a little weight lifting (like 5-10 minutes with 10-15 lbs dumbell)..of course everybody is different. My 30 minute twice a week work out seems to work fine for me (I'm only 31 years old btw )

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#118921 - 10/21/03 05:25 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 11106
Loc: Philadelphia Pa, USA
Aw, you're just a baby ! Wait till you cross the 40 mark ...... everything changes.
(Who said that??? Is my father here??? )
_________________________
Everyone, and everything I listen to is my teacher. Every instrument, every voice, every sound in nature ... they are all my private tutor ... 24/7 for free.

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#118922 - 10/21/03 08:38 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Graham UK Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/20/01
Posts: 1825
Loc: Lincolnshire UK
Its funny when there are not many NEW PRODUCTS around that we all diversify into other subjects.
WHAT ABOUT THE NEW KORG PA1X ????

My wife wants to know,does any of you do machine embroidery ??

Graham UK

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#118923 - 10/21/03 11:12 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
KN_Fan Offline
Member

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 481
That's right actually "UNCLE" Dave (PUN intended )

When I hit 30 I felt that my metabolism was slowing too...funny, I belong to a different message board and I think even at the triton studio board people were much closer or either much younger than me...he.he...man I hit that age bracket where I'm too old for some, to young for the other...*sigh*

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#118924 - 10/21/03 12:11 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
B2 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 217
Loc: Westfield, Massachesetts, USA
Hey Scott, sorry guys, can't let this one go...There is only 1 God my friend....and HE not only has the market on the truth...he is the truth....you might have been joking, so sorry if I went over the Top, but just setting the record straight...some stuff isn't funny...

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#118925 - 10/21/03 06:08 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 8972
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
B2, Amen to that..
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#118926 - 10/21/03 07:02 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Tony W Offline
Member

Registered: 12/04/99
Posts: 836
Loc: Lancaster UK
Hi B2
I think to assume that the entire membership of this forum is Christian is a pretty big leap on your part.

Last time I checked it was still ok to excercise free will and choose what to believe (or not as the case may be). I am not having a go at your faith, each to his own as far as I am concerned. In fact I applaud the certainty you have in what you believe.

Scott made a simple statement of fact (whether it was a joke or not it was still fact). Our thought processes, our view of the world around us and ultimately our morals DO depend on what we beleive.

Your statement is arrogant and dissmisive of other belief systems and as such I find it insulting. You are right in that some things are not funny.

I don't find it at all funny that if I were a Wiccan and said that God was the earth, or if I was a Buddist and did not beleive in any God but in achieving perfection through reincarnation,....and I made such statements on this forum I would be villified for my belief.

However it seems that Christians can and do (time and again on this forum) feel free to recite their doctrine with little thought for others and yet are the first to cry shame when the tables are turned.

I really don't care what you belive, nor do I expect you to care what I believe. I do expect that we all have the maturity and common courtesy to accept that we are a diverse bunch and consider the same before making post such as yours condeming outright opposing points of view.

Someone said that most of the worlds problems are down to religion. I disagree! Most of the worlds problems are down to the way we practice our religions. If Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jew, Pagan, Buddist, and the rest concentrated on the human race and how best their various creeds could affect it for the better instead of evangelism and conversion we would all be better off.

My way or no way is what causes all the problems and it gets my back up. Apologies for diverting this thread but I could not let this one go either.
Tony

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#118927 - 10/21/03 07:33 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 11106
Loc: Philadelphia Pa, USA
Tony,
Your point is well taken, but true faith transends manners. If you don't believe in your heart that you are following the right path, then you probably AREN'T.
To assume that we all belive the same is unrealistic, but to believe that your faith and dogma is only "percieved" to be true is like not believing at all.

You gotta have your convictions. My Christian
faith allows tolerance for those who believe other than I do, but it also teaches that we should try to spread the truth to the non believers.

I have room for other views and faiths, but in my heart I believe that my God is the one true God. If you don't feel the same .... you may as well scrap your belief system.
What's that wise saying.....
"You've got to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything."
Brian was only trying to spread the good news to all. We're not preaching here, just trying to set a good example in our own way.
I don't think the world will ever be united as one faith in our lifetime, and as for Christians ... there's a whole story about if that ever happens anyway. Scary stuff will follow THAT phenomenon, according to a guy named John.
_________________________
Everyone, and everything I listen to is my teacher. Every instrument, every voice, every sound in nature ... they are all my private tutor ... 24/7 for free.

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#118928 - 10/22/03 04:13 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10427
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
Quote:
Originally posted by B2:
There is only 1 God my friend....and HE not only has the market on the truth...he is the truth....


Hi B2 :Though I respect (and may agree) with your deeply held religious conviction, I feel it was inappropriate the way you presented it here, as a 'hard fact'. Our SZ family consists of many wonderful members from many differing religious (or non religious) backgrounds. To respect the feelings of people who may hold equally strong (but different) religious convinctions than yours, I think it would have been better to have presented it as your 'personal belief' instead. Just my opinion.

Quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Dave:

My Christian faith allows tolerance for those who believe other than I do, but it also teaches that we should try to spread the truth to the non believers.


This somehow sounds a bit 'holier than thou' to me, as I don't believe Christians hold any 'patent' in the tolerance department. I think we 'all' need to be practicing: 'acceptance', and not merely 'tolerance'. . On the subject of spreading the (truth?), I dislike the type of religious groups who instill fear & intimidation (threatening an after life in hell unless you convert), or when they attempt to promote their brand of religion as the 'only' path to enlightenment, with an eternal afterlife spent in heaven vs hell. These kind of manipulative tactics are (to me) intended to feed on people's fears and insecurities.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony W:

it seems that Christians can and do (time and again on this forum) feel free to recite their doctrine with little thought for others and yet are the first to cry shame when the tables are turned.


Tony, I agree.

In light of all this, I feel that religious debate has no place on the Synthzone forum. It will only to lead to divisiveness and division. Afterall, look at world history. The majority of all wars have been started over religion. Let's keep the topic on the thing we all share: arranger keyboards & music.

Scott
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#118929 - 10/22/03 04:47 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 11106
Loc: Philadelphia Pa, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Scottyee:
Let's keep the topic on the thing we all share: arranger keyboards & music.


Sure, you say that AFTER all your rebuttles.

There is nothing dangerous about healthy discussion. We touch on many topics here, but we always get back to business eventually. This group is the poster child for acceptance. It's much more globally polite than anywhere I've ever been .. on line, or off.
_________________________
Everyone, and everything I listen to is my teacher. Every instrument, every voice, every sound in nature ... they are all my private tutor ... 24/7 for free.

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#118930 - 10/22/03 01:26 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
KN_Fan Offline
Member

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 481
I'm a Christian too...and I didn't get offended by anybody's remarks..true that we shouldn't be divided by what religion we practice. Only by the arranger brands we're playing

Just trying to lighten the mood guys

Peace!!

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#118931 - 10/22/03 06:59 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
B2 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 217
Loc: Westfield, Massachesetts, USA
Tony W. I never took any leap of faith in assuming everyone was Christian. My remarks weren't just for Christians. Actually, they were just a comment for Scott, whether or not he is a believer isn't the issue. I just spoke about something I saw that bothered me personally. Guess I could have e-mailed him and saved you the trouble of reading it.
Regarding the rest of your comments, I have no comment. One thing I've learned the hard way, this not the time or place for this topic. I would love to debate your thoughts on another forum, but out of respect for the Synth Zone faithful, I will leave it alone. Uncle Dave, Thanks for your eloquence...
Scott, we can agree to dis-agree...big time....but...this is the Synth Zone, and I apologize for getting side tracked. Music is the theme...so on with....diets????? Brian

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#118932 - 10/28/03 10:54 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
sk880user Offline
Member

Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 1255
Loc: United States
"If Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jew, Pagan, Buddist, and the rest concentrated on the human race and how best their various creeds could affect it for the better instead of evangelism and conversion we would all be better off."

False! Freedom of religion is very important. Freedom of religion is NOT simply the freedom to practice own religion. But far more importantly is to SHARE own religion.

Otherwise, we are not different from Saudi Arabia.

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