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#118906 - 10/19/03 03:49 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Idatrod Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/02
Posts: 562
Loc: Oceanside, CA USA
Here we go again:

Myth: Vitamin B12 can be obtained from plant sources.

: Of all the myths, this is perhaps the most dangerous. Vegans who do not supplement their diet with vitamin B12 will eventually get anemia (a fatal condition) as well as severe nervous and digestive system damage (6). Claims are made that B12 is present in certain algae, tempeh (a fermented soy product) and brewer's yeast. All of them are false.

: Like the niacin in corn, the B12 analogues present in algae and tempeh are not bioavailable. We know this because studies done on people's blood levels of B12 remained the same after they ate spirulina and tempeh; there was no change, clearly indicating no absorption by the body (7). Further, the ingestion of too much soy increases the body's need for B12 (8). Brewer's yeast does not contain B12 naturally; it is always fortified from an outside source.

: Some vegetarian authorities claim that B12 is produced by certain fermenting bacteria in the intestines. This may be true, but it is in a form unusable by the body. B12 requires intrinsic factor from the stomach for proper absorption in the ileum. Since the bacterial product does not have intrinsic factor bound to it, it cannot be absorbed (9).

: It is true that vegans living in certain parts of India do not suffer from vitamin B12 deficiency. This has led some to conclude that plant foods do provide this vitamin. This conclusion, however, is erroneous as many small insects, their eggs, larvae and/or residue, are left on the plant foods these people consume, due to non-use of pesticides and inefficient cleaning methods. This is how these people obtain their vitamin B12. This contention is borne out by the fact that when Indian Hindus migrated to England, they came down with pernicious anemia within a few years. In England, the food supply is cleaner, and insect residues are completely removed from plant foods (10).
: The only reliable and absorbable sources of vitamin B12 are animal products, especially organ meats and eggs (11). Though present in lesser amounts, milk products do contain B12. Vegans, therefore, should consider adding dairy products into their diets. If dairy cannot be tolerated, eggs, preferably from free-run hens, are a virtual necessity.

: That vitamin B12 can only be obtained from animal products is one of the strongest arguments against veganism being a "normal" way of human eating. Today, vegans can avoid anemia by taking supplemental vitamins or fortified foods. If those same people had lived just a few decades ago, when these products were unavailable, they would have died.

: In my own practice, I recently saved two vegans from death from anemia by convincing them to eat generous amounts of dairy products. Both of these sickly gentlemen thought their B12 needs were being met by tempeh and spirulina. They weren't.

Nutrient facts:

Pernicious anemia results from a deficiency of vitamin B12, usually caused by a defect in the absorption of B12 in the intestine.
It is a widely held belief that vitamin B12 can be obtained from mushrooms, tempeh, miso and spirulina but this is not true. Vitamin B12 in a form that can be absorbed by humans is [only found in foods of animal origin].
Because vitamin B12 is only found in animal foods, vegans (strict vegetarians) are at risk of low B12 levels and anemia.

I am not against eating my vegetables Larry but I am concerned about not getting the right nutrients in the right amount absorbed and utilized for my body's health and well being. Apparently vegetarians lack of knowledge in this area has caused untold harm to millions of people, putting not only themselves at risk but also unwittingly putting the lives of their children and even their unborn at risk too.

Small Amounts of Animal Products Not Enough to Restore Optimal B12 Status

van Dusseldorp et al.102 (1999, Netherlands) investigated whether moderate consumption of animal products is sufficient for achieving normal B12 function in 73 adolescents (in good health) who had received a macrobiotic diet until 6 years of age and had then switched to a LOV or omnivorous diet. 94 nonvegetarian (NV) adolescents from birth were used as a reference. In macrobiotics, dairy products supplied on average 0.95 g B12/day.

Additionally, they consumed fish, meat, or chicken 2-3 times/week. Serum B12 was significantly lower and MMA, folate, and MCV were significantly higher in macrobiotics. Of macrobiotics, 21% had abnormal MMA levels, 10% had abnormal total homocysteine, and 15% had abnormal MCV (> 89 fl). Authors concluded that a substantial number of the formerly strict macrobiotic adolescents still had impaired B12 function.

Thus, moderate consumption of animal products is not sufficient for restoring normal B12 status in adolescents with inadequate B12 intake during the early years of life. They might need B12 intakes higher than recommended to obtain normal B12 status.


Even if you are eating Dairy products while your only other food comsumption is plant based foods be advised that you still may NOT be getting the required B12 that you need. More like be WARNED!

Vegetarians tale of B12 deficiency:

Normal level of B12 is apparently 160, problems start around 140. Tiredness numbness in tips of the limbs, hazy outlook on everything and a regular fainting feeling etc. I knew something was wrong. I had pernicious anemia. Not something to be enjoyed. I ended up requiring a round of B12 injections for a few weeks and some recovery time off from work. My levels shot up to 1100 and I broke out into a mass of acne. Within 8 weeks they were back down to 165. There is now concern my digestive system has been damaged.
Just be careful with your diet. Get tested to make sure, better to ensure you're safe than dying. Regardless to the fact I had no idea about B12, I ate tofu and tempeh weekly and became ill.

I would hate for you to wake up and realize that you're in a hospital somewhere with an irreversible and/or fatal neurological disorder or other condition that could have been prevented if your mind hadn't been blinded to the truth Larry. I care for you too much to not say anything to you and in a way would feel responsible if I didn't say anything. And I hope you wake up, smell the roses and once again face the facts, ie., reality.

Best regards,
Mike

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#118907 - 10/19/03 04:19 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Beakybird Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/27/01
Posts: 2154
1. If being a vegetarian is so dangerous, to what do you attribute the greater longevity for vegetarians compared to omnivores? To what do you attribute the lower levels of heart attacks, diabetes, cancers of many kinds, and even Alzheimers among vegetarians?

2. The B12 in food supplements and in processed food is from vegetarian sources. This I have ascertained.

I know several hundred vegetarians, many since birth, and they are a very healthy lot. One gentleman is 100 years old and still walks without a cane. I know some vegans too, who take supplements to get their B12, and they enjoy exceptional health as well. However, I have also heard of people getting carried away and getting sick from not getting adequate protein in their diet.

I enjoy excellent health and above average energy. I have vegetarian friends who are as strong as oxes.

The specious reasoning that Carl Lewis is vegetarian and had a dui which means that he has problems which means that vegetarians have problems demonstrates to me that you do not reason clearly.

Thank you, however, for alerting us vegetarians to the dangers of B12 deficiency.

Uncle Dave, I think that your suggestion that God gave us animals so that we can slaughter them is not well thought out. I believe that God gave us power so that we may protect the less helpless not hurt them. I believe that this goes for animals as well as children.

Beakybird

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#118908 - 10/19/03 04:31 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
DonM Online   elvis
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 15807
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Who was it that fed all those people with fish?
DonM
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#118909 - 10/19/03 06:46 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Tony W Offline
Member

Registered: 12/04/99
Posts: 836
Loc: Lancaster UK
Captain Birdseye?

Tony (Well the Brits will know what I'm on about!)

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#118910 - 10/19/03 08:16 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 11299
Loc: Philadelphia Pa, USA
Wisely stated form another site:

" Humans make moral choices, have spiritual lives, and can relate to God in a unique way. God chose to make some creatures for the benefit of others. Animals and humans are not equal in the eyes of God. God chose to create animals for us. "

I don't know the actual verse, but I'm almost positive it exists. The decision to treat animals with "humanity" is a manmade one. There is a definate hierarchy in the animal kingdom. Man rules the nest.
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Everyone, and everything I listen to is my teacher. Every instrument, every voice, every sound in nature ... they are all my private tutor ... 24/7 for free.

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#118911 - 10/19/03 09:17 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10427
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
Quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Dave:
Animals and humans are not equal in the eyes of God.


Depends on what God you choose to believe in. Who has the market on the truth anyway? But if the Hindu's are right and Uncle Dave comes back as a cow we better hope he's in India.

Scott
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#118912 - 10/19/03 10:37 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
DonM Online   elvis
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 15807
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
From diet to diety. I'm going back to talking about arranger keyboards.
DonM
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DonM

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#118913 - 10/20/03 01:00 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
eddiefromrotherham Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/02
Posts: 788
Loc: Rotherham,England.
Quote:
Originally posted by Tony W:
Captain Birdseye?

Tony (Well the Brits will know what I'm on about!)


Hi Tony
Nice one! I laughed so much I'm still trying to calm down




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Eddie from Rotherham
www.yamahakeyboards.info

my mail is virus-free thanks to Norton Antivirus2002
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Eddie from Rotherham
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#118914 - 10/20/03 04:08 AM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
Beakybird Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/27/01
Posts: 2154
Another kooky thing that Idatrod said is that people in India get their B12 from eating insects from their unwashed vegetables. I mean come on!

I know hundreds of people from India. My spiritual organization is centered in Chicago and New Delhi. I've been to India. I'm not the biggest fan of Indian food or the Indian lifestyle. Too much curry. Too much dangerous driving on narrow streets. But we have a lot of Indian friends here in Chicago and in parts of India, and I've washed pots while they have cooked many many times. Let me tell you that they don't eat bugs.

So your bugs in the vegetables does not wash. Those who eat dairy or get fortified B12 in vitamins or foods, have nothing to fear about anemia.

In fact, I came accross a US government study that studied B12 deficiency in Americans. They state:

Oddly, the researchers found no association between plasma B12 levels and meat, poultry, and fish intake, even though these foods supply the bulk of B12 in the diet. “It’s not because people aren’t eating enough meat,” Tucker said. “The vitamin isn’t getting absorbed.”

They go on to say that fortified B12 is more likely to get absorbed than B12 in meat because some people are not secreting the right stomach acids to release the vitamin.
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2000/000802.htm. So go figure!

Beakybird

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#118915 - 10/20/03 12:18 PM Re: How's your Diet Progressing?
brickboo Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/04/01
Posts: 2068
Loc: Fruita, Colorado, USA
I just bought a new diet book. I may get it this week. Can't do the no toast with my eggs, no red beans and rice, no potatoes etc.

Maybe it will get me started again. The easiest is a low fat diet for me so far. I'm anxious to see what this one is about.

I don't believe in killing animals just to hang antlers on a wall. That can't be right.

Don, a local private pond here on my last three trips, I catch and keep 2 or 3 Bass and and 2 or 3 crappie and throw back about 6 or 8 anywhere from 45 minutes to 1 1/2 hours. That doesn't sound real does it? But it is true. I'm going this afternoon. It's the coolest weather here since last spring and I'm anxious to see what happens. I just was invited to fish ther this summer after I did a brick job for the rancher.

Oh! Oh! sorry I changed the subject.
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I'm not prejudiced, I hate everybody!! Ha ha! My Sister-In-Law had this tee shirt. She was a riot!!!

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