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#105091 - 06/29/01 03:10 PM Why must we continue to downtalk sound quality?
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
I've noticed over the past couple of months that SO many people have been complaining that the sounds on recent and past keyboards aren't up to their own personal standards. Here's my take on this. What must not be forgotten is that these are DIGITAL instruments.. You will never get a digital instrument to perform and sound as good as the real thing. Understand that our keyboards lack the most essential part of the piano and that's a SOUNDBOARD. Also keey in mind that multi-range sampling can result in very slight differences in tone quality, and volume between the ranges. The problem is when playing 2 notes that lie on either side of the point where there is a change from one range to another. This is unavoidable because of the digital sampling process. Many of today's and yesterday's top keyboards have really good sounds. We all have our own personal taste when it comes to sound quality. We each hear sounds differently.... I've talked to some people that prefer the sounds of the Casio WK series to the Yamaha PSR series. Again it's all in personal taste.
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GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#105092 - 06/29/01 04:03 PM Re: Why must we continue to downtalk sound quality?
jock McEwan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13
Loc: uk
I agree that music and sound synthesis is a very subjective matter but with memory prices plummeting so quickly why do they skip on sample ROM chips?I mean for instance,the PSR740 has 250 odd main sounds stuffed into 12MB of wave ROM.On my PC I have a bass sound that occupies 12MB on its' own and believe me there is a huge difference.I currently use 50 sounds that take up 140MB(16bit at 48KHZ,no looping) and the quality is exceptional
but I have yet to hear any keyboard with this quality!I would prefer a keyboard have say one good acoustic instead of maybe 12 with the available memory dedicated to that sample only,thus giving a more realistic timbre/colouration!In the real world I have no use for 700 odd XG sounds.Give me drums,bass,piano,sax and guitar compressed into
a reasonable sized ROM and I would say most people would be happy!Forget the rest unless thats' your thing.

best regards...jock
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Jock McEwan

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#105093 - 06/29/01 04:16 PM Re: Why must we continue to downtalk sound quality?
Tony W Offline
Member

Registered: 12/04/99
Posts: 836
Loc: Lancaster UK
Hello Squeak,

I think where our particular type of instruments are concerned there will always be this 'debate'. In my opinion we buy our instruments with the expectation that they will emulate the sounds we require to the best possible standard. The very fact that we will spend the price of a small island to own the top boards should entitle us to that expectation at least, otherwise why bother?

If a company (any of them) sell's it's boards by advertising the quality of their sounds (and most of them do) then if I part with my dosh I expect that quality to be there. I don't think is at all unreasonable on my part?

If we as consumers were just willing to accept that to get the best of one sound you have to buy brand a and to get the best of another you buy brand b then that is what we will get from the manufacturers ad infenitum. Critisism can be constructive and I don't believe anything was ever achieved by meekly accepting limitations.

If we all sit back and accept that sometimes you press trumpet only to get a sound akin to next doors cat when it finds the pepper on your lawn then we had better all brush up, learn the hundred or so instruments on a keyboard and haul em all to the next gig!

I agree that personal taste has a lot to do with it but we all have a right to expect the best possible for our buck! (Or pound in my case )
ttfn
Tony



------------------
" Music is the only one of the arts that cannot be prostituted to a base use." (Elbert Hubbard).
"Elbert Hubbard and I have never met. He is not familiar with my work." (Tony W.)

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#105094 - 06/29/01 04:58 PM Re: Why must we continue to downtalk sound quality?
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
Tony,
I agree with you on this. I think that keyboard makers publish too much hype about their sound quality. Let's face it.. These keyboards are expensive. I don't care how much a person makes because any keyboard that costs $1000.00 and up should have good sound quality. I also agree that critisism can be very constructive, and that we should not accept these limitations, but there is only so much that today's technology can do with sampling. Even the top dog synths that cost over 2 grand have their flaws with sound quality. I also see jocks point. Why don't they give more ROM to sounds? The most impressive I've seen recently in regards to ROM is the new Yamaha Motif.. This things includes sounds from the S80,EX5, and the PSR9000. It's quite an impressive machine. I think Yammie hit the head on the nail with this synth.... It seems to meet most if not all of the things we musicians want in a synth..

Squeak
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#105095 - 06/29/01 10:31 PM Re: Why must we continue to downtalk sound quality?
Dreamer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/23/01
Posts: 3849
Loc: Rome - Italy
Hi all,
the problem with sound quality is that you cannot find the best sounds all in one machine, so if you want the best acoustic piano you have to buy a dedicated digital piano, like Yamaha or Roland, then if you want the best Rhodes you need a Roland XV or a Yamaha or a Korg (matter of taste), then for the best strings again a Roland or a Korg, then...
So I agree with Squeak that when a new synth like the Motif comes out with such impressive specs (80 Mb of ROM, am I right?) you start to hope that maybe, finally, you will be able to have all (or "almost" all) in one package.
By the way, did anyone have a chance to play the Motif? And in this case, what is his opinion on the overall sound quality and single sound categories?
Thanks
Andrea
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Korg Kronos 61 and PA3X-Pro76, Roland G-70, BK7-m and Integra 7, Casio PX-5S, Fender Stratocaster with Fralin pickups, Fender Stratocaster with Kinman pickups, vintage Gibson SG standard.

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#105096 - 06/30/01 09:13 AM Re: Why must we continue to downtalk sound quality?
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 12800
Loc: Penn Yan, NY
Let's not loose sight of the "big picture" here! Most of today's digital keyboards make VERY good sounds. Some make EXCEPTIONAL sounds. If you are very fussy about particulars - there are ways to interface different pieces of gear together to get a "custom" sound that suits you.
I don't expect an "all in one" unit to be superb on all levels. That's not gonna happen, but for working players, like me - the new digital arrangers, and synths offer a portable, versitile way to take my muis to the people that want to pay for it. No one ever says..."Do you have a darker trumpet sound" ??????? The sounds are very acceptable in almost all areas, and absoulutly stellar in some.
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#105097 - 06/30/01 10:07 PM Re: Why must we continue to downtalk sound quality?
Dreamer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/23/01
Posts: 3849
Loc: Rome - Italy
Well, like I was saying, did anyone have a chance to hear the Motif? George Kaye wrote (to the General Forum) that he just got one, so I think they are available for sale already.
_________________________
Korg Kronos 61 and PA3X-Pro76, Roland G-70, BK7-m and Integra 7, Casio PX-5S, Fender Stratocaster with Fralin pickups, Fender Stratocaster with Kinman pickups, vintage Gibson SG standard.

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#105098 - 07/01/01 03:46 AM Re: Why must we continue to downtalk sound quality?
Arbaz Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/01
Posts: 165
just go to www.yamaha.co.uk then check out the demo online not very good if comparing to Triton sounds are....well no comaprison.

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#105099 - 07/01/01 04:24 AM Re: Why must we continue to downtalk sound quality?
Dreamer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/23/01
Posts: 3849
Loc: Rome - Italy
Thank you for the info, Arbaz.
_________________________
Korg Kronos 61 and PA3X-Pro76, Roland G-70, BK7-m and Integra 7, Casio PX-5S, Fender Stratocaster with Fralin pickups, Fender Stratocaster with Kinman pickups, vintage Gibson SG standard.

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#105100 - 07/01/01 11:23 AM Re: Why must we continue to downtalk sound quality?
George Kaye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/24/99
Posts: 3305
Loc: Reseda, California USA
Arbaz and Dreamer,
I know this is an arranger forum but I'd like to give my impression of the Triton vs Motif sounds..............
Korg sounds have always sounded "korg" and Yamaha sounds have always sounded "Yamaha". What I mean by this is that although models change from year to year, the basic architecture of the engines don't seem to change too much, so you can change functions and buttons and tha ability to sample, etc. but the way in which the company's make their sounds don't change too much. I also find that many samples, names of sounds, etc. don't change too much either because the same sound designers often work on each new generation machine.
Now, here's what I like about the motife. With 85 MB ( in 16 bit mode), actually 48 MB in reality, which is still double the S80 and S30, Yamaha has done a great job with the sounds. The Piano's are not changed much, but the Solo instruments like violin, Viola, Cello, Nylon and Steel Guitars have been greatly imroved. There are now "sweet" sounds right out of the 9000 Pro including the sweet flute which is great.
In comparing the Trition with the Motif sound wise I think the Yamaha Grand Piano is much better. Also the Electric Pianos and the new Organs on the Yamaha are in my opinion superior.
What I have always thought was that because Korg Programers really show off the combi mode which allows for 8 voices to be used at once, this is where the Korg sometimes wins to listeners ears. Yamaha uses up to 4 voices per performance(combi) and although these performances are great, some players will still like the lushness of the Triton sounds better. I ask you to really find a store that has both and listen closely to the individual voices on both. I still think the Yamaha wins in realism of each voice.
Here's where the Yamaha is amazing. "Integrated Sampling". You can first record your drum track, bass track, piano track, strings, etc. and than hit intergrated sampling, pick any unused track you want, plug in a mic or guitar, hit record and while listening to your song recorded as a song file, you are recording your audio (analog) sound source right along with the song in perfect timing and pitch. Now, after recording, on playback, you can change the tempo anytime or anywhere and your singing or playing is perfectly synced. You can't do this with the Triton sampler. The Motif's come stock with 4 MB but can be expanded to 64MB by standard 72 pin simms. You can record 6 min. 20. sec. in stereo at 44.1K when using 64 MB. The other thing that is great is that using the smart media boards up to 128 MB, you can store all of your song data in about 5 seconds including all the samples. Compared to other Yamaha Samplers this is a welcome change. The older products took forever to save and load wav files.
Yamaha has also given you as standard equipment a SCSI port for conecting drives, a USB port for connecting midi and digital in and out. You can buy a card for adding up to 8 more analog outputs and SPDIF.
Also keep in mind that the price of the three Motifs ( 61 key, 76 key and 88 graded hammer action keyboard) are all $800.00 less than the three comparable Tritons.
I think all of you know that I sell many brands we all talk about and I find strengths and weaknessess in all the products I sell. Sometimes it is hard for me to not show my "passion" for certain products and i try hard to balance all the selling points of similar products. I think that players who love Korg products will still love their Korg keyboards, and Yamaha players will think that the Motif is a great addition to the Yamaha line up and I think many players who have been on the fence about Yamaha not having a really good workstation type keyboard will be thrilled to see, try and buy this new beauty from Yamaha.
Regards,
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
_________________________
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene (Closed after 51 years)
West Hills, California
(Retired 2021)

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#105101 - 07/01/01 03:32 PM Re: Why must we continue to downtalk sound quality?
Nimrod Offline
Member

Registered: 06/27/01
Posts: 89
George,,

What are the principal differences in sound as far as the Yamaha 9000 Pro and the Motif are concerned?. Is the Piano the *same* sample on both? - Or do they have characteristics of there own?. Are the Keys on the 9000/motif about the same on the 76 note versions (to feel that is)?. Also, since you say the actual ROM is 48 MB (no small number), why are there fewer sounds on the Motif? (better sounds with more memory allocated to them???) - And does the Motif have the excellent Sweet/ soloist sounds that the 9000 has? i know the Yamaha 9000 is an Arranger, but I feel they would be kind of similar somehow. Strings for example: better on Yamaha or motif?

I like Arranger keyboards, but not too bothered about flashy patterns that seem to do it all for you. I am willing to "work" to get my own sound, but would like some excellent sounds to start with anyway. Also, the Triton (76 key) would be on my shopping list if it weren't for the dreadful piano people talk about (Triton owners themselves admit that.). It is a "76 Key", Keyboard that I want, but the Piano ****must**** be very good. (And strings/Pads etc). When I say Strings/Pads etc - I mean that they should be very good (good enough not to want a sound module like a Roland XV3080 after a month of being bored with the internal sounds. Also, what speakers (less than $150) would you recommend? (Whichever keyboard i went for out of these two?) Would speakers that are just for home use do well for the Motif - and the Yamaha 9000 (all I would want is a kind of "Virtual" 76 note keyboard with Speakers, so the external speakers would have to be about as good as those on the PSR9000 - For example)

Sorry for many questions .


Andrew



[This message has been edited by Nimrod (edited 07-01-2001).]
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Oh No, I've got a virus on my Computer:(....Ahhh! - its Windows ME!

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#105102 - 07/01/01 03:59 PM Re: Why must we continue to downtalk sound quality?
George Kaye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/24/99
Posts: 3305
Loc: Reseda, California USA
Andrew,
The 76 Motif is probably perfect for you! The pianos (more than 1 actual piano) is superb! The keyboard is exactly the same as the 9000pro. It was made from the original DX7 keyboard and then used on the SY99 and the EX5. The reason the sounds are so good is because with 48 MB's you can really sample the sounds with the most amount of authenticity. Because you can multi sample and multi layer, you get the best possible sounds this way. The sweet and solo sounds from the 9000pro have been added as well as many new samples never heard on a Yamaha before. If you like great pianos, pads, strings, this machine will not dissapoint you. Even if you didn't use the 16 track pattern sequencer ( which allows you to loop record up to either 128 or 256 (I can't remember exactly) measures and then chain these patterns together into the 16 track linear sequencer with over 120,000 note memory, this machine is worth the price just for the sounds. If you don't need the sampler, you would also enjoy having this keyboard just for the sounds.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
_________________________
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene (Closed after 51 years)
West Hills, California
(Retired 2021)

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#105103 - 07/01/01 04:33 PM Re: Why must we continue to downtalk sound quality?
Nimrod Offline
Member

Registered: 06/27/01
Posts: 89
Thanks George for your swift reply.

I have now, in fact, downloaded the Manual for it (MOTIF) Acrobat format, and the 300 pages that it contains will be good reading!. It was the sampler that attracted me to it in the first place, as I "Could" make do without the dedicated samplers - if this one proved to be good - and it does seem good (re-sampling etc). But how does the Sampler compare to a "real one"? (Akai/Emu/Yamaha etc) -I wonder!. The SCSI on the back of the Motif gives me the idea that you can load sample CD's in. Right? - if you can do this, and map them out like a normal Akai/Yamaha/Emu sampler etc, then it is well worth its price, if the sounds are "very good" that is!

I suppose with today’s technology - and keyboards at that, we SHOULD expect Piano's to sound like Piano's, and Oboes like oboes etc. I know lots of memory are required for these individual sounds, but i would rather start off with Good (very good) sounds, and then add "very good" sounds to the already Very good sounds that are on this keyboard!. It is year 2001 now, and I remember the Yamaha SY85 when it came out, and that was superb in its day. Maybe we "can't" have a great Keyboard "all-in-one" But then again...why not? - The Motif seems to offer this, with the option to add harmonizer by cards etc. The Roland VA7 is good - but I gather it stops at 48 MB (IE: NON expandable), and in a year or two from now, 48 MB will seem low.

I don't always like the word "Multi layering" etc, when we have only 62 notes poly, in the case of the Motif (the Yamaha 9000 Pro has 126 notes remember George, and that is what leaned me to the Pro slightly) I think you can increase this with cards, but that adds to the price (not sure how much these cards are by the way).

I say this. An arranger keyboard need not be one that is full of auto accompaniments etc, and loads of backings. Nope. We can use a keyboard with a Sequencer in it, and use that to "ARRANGE" our songs with, and then store them for playback. Maybe it is not so easy to do on the Yamaha Motif - but if the end result is justified by the work put in - to get "That sound" then I am prepared to work for it. If this Motif can load in Sample CD's, then it may be the one for me. (How would external samples affect the Polyphony on this Motif I wonder? The fact that they are very low priced (compared), makes me wonder how they get (Almost, it seems) a "fully fledged" sampler in there as well!

Andrew



[This message has been edited by Nimrod (edited 07-01-2001).]
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Oh No, I've got a virus on my Computer:(....Ahhh! - its Windows ME!

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