I finally got the chance to A/B The Roland BA-330 stereo amp (15 watts a side)..to the acclaimed Bose Compact..(stated anywhere between 100-130 watts).
The owner of the Bose (Gary M)is a proud owner of all 3 Bose models...but when credit is due..he will say so..(Unlike most Bose owners.. )
The first test was a simple plug something into the BA330 to show Gary what 15 watts a side can sound like.. ..and on battery power too..Gary's jaw dropped..he said he would never have thought a low powered(number wise) amp could sound so good..
From Gary M 1/24/2010 [Is true]
A quick initial A/B to the Compact..immediately l confirmed what I have always said about the Bose..There is a low/mid range that doesn't exist..Gary said the fullness of the BA330, kicked the butt of the Bose Compact..
From Gary M 1/24/2010 [Is also true]
We A/B'd for over 3 hours..using many different combinations and set ups..
I talked Gary into the Edirol M-10dx mixer..we both agreed this mixer is the best in it's price range and even those costing much more..
We than set up the amps with the Edirol mixer..I wanted to show Gary a feature on the Edlrol..I knew could improve the Bose fullness...
The Edirol has a Room Acoustic Control..it uses white noise to set up dual 16 channel EQ (flat)..what it does is bring out the frequencies that the Bose or any other powered speaker does not do from the factory..I have tried this with at least 6 different systems. and without fail ..improved every system..
After we did the RAC on the Bose..it came to life..I swear I seen tears in Gary's eyes..
From Gary M 1/24/2010 [Is very true-My bottm lip quivered.]
After we A/B'd my BA330 and his Compact..and the Bose came in a distant second in quality, full sound...It was time to make him happy..
The Bose is weak at best with the unit not extended.(no tower extensions)..but the Edirol RAC trick worked a miracle on the Bose Compact..You could finally hear what is missing from the factory sound..
Now you Bose folks don't go off the deep end..maybe you just have to experience what Gary just did..to become a believer..and admit there is a lacking area in the stock Bose...
The BA330 showed Gary what was missing on his Bose and the Edirol mixer..made his Bose something he could smile about once again..
From Gary M 1/24/2010-First… I never, did not smile about the Bose. I never considered that anything was missing. Bose gear always seems so warm and comfortable. Projects well and blab la bla… I got so caught up in my comfort zone I didn’t believe it could get better for me. Fran dragged me kickin’ and screamin’ to try the Edirol, and it was great. Beat out my little Behringer. Then He ad to beat me up and tie me down to try the RAC feature on the Edirol with the L1 Compact.
I have to admit… I peed a little. I mad parts of the audio spectrum come alive that I didn’t miss ‘cause I never heard them from the Bose before. But after doing 2 gigs with the RAC, it’s now a staple and if it were not there I would definitely miss it.
Comparisons are lessons to be learned..
BTW" we compared another Crate battery powered amp to the BA330..we quickly had to unplug the Crate..it was outclassed...From Gary M 1/24/2010 [Is true]
Hopefully ..I can get Gary to post his thoughts ..in case I put words into his mouth...When I left his place..he was a happy dude...he even claimed that if he was in the market prior to buying the Bose..he would get the BA330..
From Gary M 1/24/2010 [Is true Kinda’] For stationary gigs I prefer the Bose for warmth. Not that the BA330 is not warm, just different. It’s a matter of Preference rather then good or bad. I do some strolling gigs where the BA300 would be a better choice for. [“Band Without Borders”
http://garymurway.homestead.com/Our_Service.html#anchor_19 But now I’m using the L1 Compact [no towers] on a mini cart with a portable power supply.
So now the results are yours...believe what you want...but if I owned a Bose ..I would buy a Edirol mixer..to use with the Bose..that way it can sound as good as the BA330...
From Gary M 1/24/2010
Kidding aside, the Edirol in my opinion completed the Bose, and I didn’t even know it was incomplete.
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travlin'easy
Member posted 01-19-2010 05:33 PM
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Hey Fran,
C'mon down here to the sunny south and show us country boys your setup. Sure like to hear the rig first hand.
From Gary M 1/24/2010
Do yourself a favor, pick the stuff ip at a Guitar center or Sweetwater and try it. You have a month [I think to return it if you don’t like it. Wadda you have to lose, a drive to Guitar Center or a few bucks in shipping at Sweetwater?
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Fran Carango
Member posted 01-19-2010 05:42 PM
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Gary, everything is against a trip this year..I am feeding my repair hungary Ford explorer...nursing a cold..and have a busy play schedule....
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cassp
Member posted 01-19-2010 05:43 PM
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Fran said it - it's on the internet - it must be true.
I do miss having any type of mixer function on the Compact, but as is, it's pretty good to my ears. I have a small Behringer I haven't used yet; maybe I should give it a try. I haven't heard the BA330 to offer a comparison.
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BBBB
Member posted 01-19-2010 05:43 PM
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Interesting Fran. I do not own a compact but I do use the BOSE T1 mixer with my BOSE L1 Model II and Bass. I am curious if using the T1 with a compact would produce better results than the built in presets on the compact. These are quite limited. Another opportunity for an A/B test! . Brian
From Gary M 1/24/2010
I tried this and returned the T1I didn’t give me a $600 boner.Where the Edirol did [fugitively].
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SemiLiveMusic
Member posted 01-19-2010 05:55 PM
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Fran, do you put that BA330 behind you like a Bose or do you have to use a monitor because of feedback problems?
Do you know of any people using this for acoustic guitar?
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Fran Carango
Member posted 01-19-2010 06:00 PM
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Bill I have the only one I ever seen...It sits anywhere I want..It has a Roland advanced anti feedback feature that really works..as in zero feedback..
I will say it will work great with guitar..as it advertises..
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JCkeeys
Member posted 01-19-2010 06:01 PM
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So Fran ... How much Roland stock do you own?????
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Diki
Member posted 01-19-2010 06:11 PM
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I always want to hear one test no-one ever does. Take the Bose, take the Roland, take your Podium's, back to back, crank them up until you DO hear distortion, then back off JUST enough to get rid of it. NOW which one is louder, fuller, etc.?
Any speaker system ought to sound pretty good up to a certain point. I just want to know what that certain point is...
If you had 100 20 year olds in a fair size room, would ANY of these things work? Go to a club with a real live band (especially a real drummer) playing. Do ANY of these put out enough to compete?
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Fran Carango
Member posted 01-19-2010 06:11 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by JCkeeys:
So Fran ... How much Roland stock do you own?????
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Basically, what I have in stock..here in my studio..
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Fran Carango
Member posted 01-19-2010 06:26 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Diki:
I always want to hear one test no-one ever does. Take the Bose, take the Roland, take your Podium's, back to back, crank them up until you DO hear distortion, then back off JUST enough to get rid of it. NOW which one is louder, fuller, etc.?
Any speaker system ought to sound pretty good up to a certain point. I just want to know what that certain point is...
If you had 100 20 year olds in a fair size room, would ANY of these things work? Go to a club with a real live band (especially a real drummer) playing. Do ANY of these put out enough to compete?
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Diki, that is a terrible concept..the only test that matters is can a system perform full enough for your intended purpose...knowing which one is loudess..means nothing..
BTW: The Podiums are the loudess speakers I have...The Podium 1204's are used with our band in high volume venues..they beat the Yorkvilles...The 802's with a mixer like wise is loud as any 8 inch gets..
The BA330 doesn't match the Podiums volume..what it does..sounds full and warm..The Podiums can be harsh...you know ..like rockers like..PS: NYE gig was a band and real drums,,we used Podium 1204's..
If I have an amp that sounds full and warm with great bass and volume to do the 80-100 person gigs I want it to handle..why would I care if it may not handle 100 rock dancers....who knows maybe it will..
From Gary M 1/24/2010
Yes, If I were still doing clubs I would prefer power.[Although in the ‘70s I did clubs with 4 Bose 802s, but since then sound reinforcement and the audiences have evolved to require more volume and quality combined from a smaller foot ptint, ala Meyers/ EAW etc.
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Fran Carango
Member posted 01-19-2010 06:30 PM
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BTW: the star of today's experiment was not the Bose or the BA330 (almost)..but the Edirol M-10dx mixer..
It made the Bose better.. From Gary M 1/24/2010 [Is true]
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Fran Carango
Member posted 01-19-2010 06:33 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by BBBB:
Interesting Fran. I do not own a compact but I do use the BOSE T1 mixer with my BOSE L1 Model II and Bass. I am curious if using the T1 with a compact would produce better results than the built in presets on the compact. These are quite limited. Another opportunity for an A/B test! . Brian
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Brian I heard the same missing range with the big L1..the Tone match didn't solve it..the Edirol will..Honest..it makes a difference..
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Fran Carango
Member posted 01-19-2010 06:35 PM
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I forgot to mention..with the RAC turned off ..you could not dial in an EQ to bring out the missing range..but turn on the RAC..and you have it all.. From Gary M 1/24/2010 [Is true]
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GlennT
Member posted 01-19-2010 08:51 PM
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"about the Bose..There is a low/mid range that doesn't exist"
Fran, I couldn't agree more. I've used the Bose L1 and now the Compact. For a medium/large venue I'll add my Barbetta SE32 which fills that void very nicely. Hard to believe that adding a mixer can create something that's not there to begin with. And BTW, I had (and returned) the ToneMatch and you're right, that didn't do it.
Thanks for the review, I'll have to give the Edirol a try.
Glenn
From Gary M 1/24/2010-When you try the Edirol RAC feature, it’s vital to do it by the book. I did not [took some shortcuts] then conveniently bitched to Fran and politely implied he was crazy. When he showed me how to implement the RAC correctly, I realized I was being a knucklehead in my half hearted attempt.
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Diki
Member posted 01-19-2010 09:17 PM
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Thing is, Fran, absolutely nowhere in your review do you actually state what your intended use IS, or any information about absolute volume levels. SOME of us are not fortunate or spendthrift enough to be able to carry three or four completely different PA's for different usages. We just want to know what is the MAXIMUM level it can stay clean for, and we can decide for ourselves if that covers all our needs. You can turn down a PA that is too big, but you can't turn UP one that is too small...
A review that ignores what something is and isn't capable of is of lesser usefulness, IMO. You DO have a honking big PA, so at least you are in a position to judge for all of us that can't make the comparison for ourselves how close something gets to that, and, trust me, that IS useful information...
From Gary M 1/24/2010
Diki,
Sounds like you may be catering to a younger and louder clientele. If this is the case and you want to feel the music really thump, then Bose may not be the right choice for you.
I wanted warmth and portability and am willing to pay for it. Bose is not for everyone or every application, however I am now a believer that the Edirol is a piece I need on a gig as much as I need a mic or guitar.
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Stephenm52
Member posted 01-20-2010 07:01 AM
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Well that does it for me I'm selling all my Bose equipment.
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Fran Carango
Member posted 01-20-2010 08:06 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Stephenm52:
Well that does it for me I'm selling all my Bose equipment.
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Since I already own the Edirol mixer...and the Bose did sound so much better with the RAC feature......I may have to get me a Bose Compact...
Stephen..how much..for yours?...
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Fran Carango
Member posted 01-20-2010 08:15 AM
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Dang it guys...I didn't condemn the Bose...I just came across a way to correct a known problem (many Bose owners confirmed) with the L1...You guys should be thrilled ..knowing for a couple more $$$..you can hear what we hear...
I did a "giant" service for you guys..This A/b experiment was an eye opening experience..and we shared it with you...
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Stephenm52
Member posted 01-20-2010 08:56 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Fran Carango:
Since I already own the Edirol mixer...and the Bose did sound so much better with the RAC feature......I may have to get me a Bose Compact...
Stephen..how much..for yours?...
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Fran, I think I'm gonna wait to sell the Bose, I get a little hyped up with the A/B test. Makes more sense just to buy the Edirol mixer. Gotta agree that was an eye opener.
From Gary M 1/24/2010-Good thought process.
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miden
Member posted 01-20-2010 11:22 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Fran Carango:
BTW: the star of today's experiment was not the Bose or the BA330 (almost)..but the Edirol M-10dx mixer..
It made the Bose better..
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One of the noisiest small form mixers out there. The amount of white noise introduced by the channel pots, particularly from when it is positioned from about half its gain travel, is totally unacceptable. MOre so on the stereo line pots.
And any setting less than half does not send a strong enough gain to properly drive an amp.
Way too much hiss.
Great concept, excellent size but poorly implemented. Roland definitely could have done better with this. It is the same with the M16 as well.
From Gary M 1/24/2010-I just did a small sweet 16 party last night and hade the Edirol opened up pretty good. I had no his from the mixer itself. I did have some from the processors in my TC Helicon Live 2.
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Fran Carango
Member posted 01-20-2010 12:57 PM
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Maybe it is not being used correctly..I have no problems with hiss..
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Fran Carango
Member posted 01-20-2010 12:59 PM
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Was this a reviewers quote..if so ..read others views...Human error can be the difference..
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Fran Carango
Member posted 01-20-2010 01:04 PM
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http://www.samedaymusic.com/productreview--EDIM10DX Here is a random review with the opposite results..
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miden
Member posted 01-20-2010 01:18 PM
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Yes, I have read that as well as many other "reviews" some funded by advertising dollars and special deals.
All I write is exactly how I find a bit of gear. I try to avoid the "rose coloured glasses" concept and the "everythings a keeper" type rhetoric.
It was the same with the MS, thus as it is with the Edirol M10.
I probably have a slightly higher intolerance to extraneous noise than you do.
Plus, looking at the speaker systems you are running, you obviously do not need much higher levels than half way on the channel gain pots. As I said the noise increases substantially past half way.
This mixer is marginally above the Behringers at this size for noise levels. In all other areas it is quite good. The RAC was not too bad.
Reasonably accurate, but nothing I could not do with a multiband EQ unit. That plus experience in being able to closely guess how rooms are going to sound.
From Gary M 1/24/2010
Just curious, what PA system do you use?
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Fran Carango
Member posted 01-20-2010 02:23 PM
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Dennis, we each have to work what is best for our needs..I have several speaker systems that I can use for any purpose I choose..and I have no problems with the gear I use..I totally disagree with your "rose color glasses" analogy...Maybe other folks would like to comment...that actually owned/tried the above gear...That way we can have honest opinions...
I still have my "keepers"..
Even the MS..
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miden
Member posted 01-20-2010 02:35 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Fran Carango:
That way we can have honest opinions...
I still have my "keepers"..
Even the MS..
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Yep, I have just given that
.....moving on
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Fran Carango
Member posted 01-20-2010 05:46 PM
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I was just thinking...we give A/B test..with realistic results..and alternative ways to improve A or B..and all this is collaborated...with some other owners giving an Amen....
And it appears to be all in vain..If no one really cares about mentioning the results of these comparisons....then I will refrain from posting the results..
On second thought...the results are yours..do what you want with them...I know the facts..and will not change my life at all....I will just play with my "keepers"..
I did think for sure, especially since there was a way to improve...that some more Bose owners would be more open minded to consider the test..It's not like there are no Bose owners that know the frequency range problem..
Also , quite possibly Bose may purposely blocked certain frequencies..to compensate a potential feedback problem...after all they were designed as stage monitors...
Now don't tell me you guys never had feedback with a Bose..
After our test improvements with the Bose..Gary M was able to use his mic 2 feet from the Bose Compact..without feedback..So I guess the additional freq gains in the low/mid range...can work satisfactory...
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SemiLiveMusic
Member posted 01-20-2010 06:14 PM
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Fran, I would always try something on my own but I do appreciate your effort.
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travlin'easy
Member posted 01-20-2010 06:38 PM
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Fran,
I'm going to try this when I get home. Then I'll post my unbiased review. Fortunately, I have a friend that owns that exact same mixer.
Gary
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J. Larry
Member posted 01-20-2010 08:35 PM
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Well, I'll bite on the BA-330, soon as I can see/hear one. May go ahead and get it sight unseen like I did with the Bose Model II. Wish there were more 330 reviews available. Apparently, it was announced way back in September, 2009. The reason---I want my keyboard and backing tracks in stereo. I've never liked tracks through the Bose, but the guitar and vocals sound great. Might even get two 330's with the link feature. I want the lightweight portability of the 330. Folks can say what they want, but at my age the Bose is really not light---when you consider 4 separate pieces to tote, plus all the other assorted gear that's necessary in a solo act. Try carrying the Bose Model II up two or three flights of stairs with no elevator. Plus, I like what someone said about a warm, full, fat sound for the 330. That describes the majority of my gigs.
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Beakybird
Member posted 01-20-2010 10:13 PM
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This is powerful and compact and full sounding:
http://www.amazon.com/Fbt-MaxX-2A-FBT-Ma...64053921&sr=8-1 Here's a review where they compare these speakers:
»Basic 100«,
dB Technologies »Opera
Live 210«, FBT »MAXX-
2a«, JBL »EON-10 G2«,
LD Systems LDP-10 2A,
Mackie SRM-350 and
RCF ART-310 A
http://www.fbtusa.net/files/Test_Report_10inch_Pow._Speakers_Tools_engl1.pdf The Maxx 2A comes out way ahead.
I am super happy with mine.
Beakybird
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Fran Carango
Member posted 01-21-2010 01:21 PM
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Gary M just called me from his gig...He used the Bose Compact..with the Edirol RAC feature...and was delighted with the results...
Maybe ...soon...Gary will give his own account...
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miden
Member posted 01-21-2010 01:58 PM
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Yes the RAC is a good tool. I never said it wasn't
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Fran Carango
Member posted 01-21-2010 02:10 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by miden:
Yes the RAC is a good tool. I never said it wasn't
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Dennis I know we can achieve the same results using a dual 15 band stereo graphic EQ....manually..
But, what I really like about the RAC feature..I use several different sound systems...and I can easily adjust the frequency (flat) of each system..automatically....and the results are always favorable..
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frankieve
Member posted 01-21-2010 02:14 PM
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I've sold allot of the italian made stuff, the FBT and RCF, they are great.
The key is the musicality of the more premier stuff. Yes you can buy a powered speaker from another company for under $300 that has great looking specs, 400 watts, 40 - 20k response,.
But if you look into it, it's 400 watts max, 100 nominal, the response is +/- 10db which is horrible.
Especially when you push the volume that where the cheaper stuff falls apart, you get mechanical compression from the cheaper drivers, tolerances that change because of the cheaper components.
In the end it's all about the sound and relaibility.
If your spending the money that's the way to go. but you will always get what you pay for.' if it seems too good to be true then it usually is
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www.AudioworksCT.com IP: Logged
miden
Member posted 01-21-2010 02:39 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Fran Carango:
Dennis I know we can achieve the same results using a dual 15 band stereo graphic EQ....manually..
But, what I really like about the RAC feature..I use several different sound systems...and I can easily adjust the frequency (flat) of each system..automatically....and the results are always favorable..
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Absolutely Fran. I do agree. In fact when I had mine I tested it a few times and I could not get any better using a manual EQ. I am just a bit set in my ways and do prefer the hands on of a full EQ. Not to mention the quick response available if a particular freq peaks out for some strange reason
But for those who are "over" manual adjustments, or those who don't know enough about frequency tweaking, the RAC feature is a super tool.
And it DOES work
The ONLY thin I did not like on the MD, was the noise from the channel pots, when they got past half-way. That was it. Apart from that I would recommend it to anyone, be they solo or band performers.
The other very useful tool, was being able to store scenes. So a user could have stored setups for up to eight (I think there were eight slots) different venues.
Dennis
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Bill Lewis
Member posted 01-22-2010 06:31 AM
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Fran
Can you put the 330 in a referance to regular PA equip?For instance is it equal in sound capacity to a single 12" cabinet cranked up or 2/ 10" cabinets running in stereo off a powered mixer?
The unit sounds intriguing but as most of my gigs go I need something to handle an arranger, vocals and some DJ dance stuff.
I like to go modular and be able to bring in what's needed and not everything all the time so maybe two of these could do it and simplify my load ins
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hitman
Member posted 01-22-2010 07:46 AM
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For $599 a piece, there is much better stuff out there! ex. srm450's,srm350, even the Eon515.
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Fran Carango
Member posted 01-22-2010 09:58 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Bill Lewis:
Fran
Can you put the 330 in a referance to regular PA equip?For instance is it equal in sound capacity to a single 12" cabinet cranked up or 2/ 10" cabinets running in stereo off a powered mixer?
The unit sounds intriguing but as most of my gigs go I need something to handle an arranger, vocals and some DJ dance stuff.
I like to go modular and be able to bring in what's needed and not everything all the time so maybe two of these could do it and simplify my load ins
From Gary M 1/23/2010
Good Approach Bill [to go modular]. I have similar needs. I keep an L1 Compact to accommodate up to about 100 people [small party, not a loud bar] and an L1 to piggy back for larger stuff. If I need more then that [not likely for my kind of work at this point] I’d rent a stage system, have it delivered and set up and use the L1 compact for a monitor.
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Bill, I think you would like the BA330..and I think 2 units would be awesome..
If you compare to most 12" single speaker like a Cube 60 (old model) or a KC100 or 150..the Ba330 more than hold it's own..especially..the BA330 gets very loud and maintains a quality sound...not possible with most 12 and 10 inch speakers (powered)..Vocals, arranger play shines with the BA330..and yes you can cover most DJ Dance music too...I have only tries a single BA330 , but I can imagine the coverage of 2 units would be super..
I even was impressed with the BA330 on a pole..still had decent bass response...if you keep the unit close to a wall..even on a pole..the bass is even more responsive...
Hitman..You have to look at what you get for $599 with the BA330..A quality sound..that you won't get from the Mackies you mentioned....This also has features...like a digital mixer with flexible outputs..anti feedback that works...effects that sound great..battery powered that last for 12 hours...
I wouldn't trade my BA330 for none of the models you mentioned....and besides that a single Podium 8 or 12 ..blows away the Mackies and eons..at $100-$250....If you want power ..you won't beat the Podiums...The sound quality..belongs to the BA330.....
Bill I am just testing the BA330 the way you would use it..Arranger play..playing big brass patches ..busy style patterns..vocals (that don't feed back)...and also some MP3's like Turn the beat around, Cha Cha slide..etc....it handles all this...PS: even on battery power..
If you need more signal input..a mixer like my Edirol adds more and still maintains a quality sound...Even without an external mixer..I still have head room..Master is at 2:00 and the individual channel at 3:00..
Keep in mind this is 15 watts a side stereo..and it is performing like 10 fold in the competition world..
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From: Fran Carango
To: gary murway
Sent: Tue, January 19, 2010 8:19:13 PM
Subject: SZ post
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/020716.html
Gary, make a comment and comfirm our test...maybe other Bose folks will believe in the Edirol mixer..and give some credit to the BA330 too
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