As one of the 'stick with it and tweak it 'til it's right' school (I just can't justify losing money on a keyboard - it's supposed to MAKE me money!), I have to admit that the G70, especially for style play, is just poorly voiced. I don't think that the majority of voices are inferior to the G1000 (my previous keyboard of 8 years), a favorite of many of the G70's detractors. Many, if not most voices are quite superior, especially soloed.

BUT......... (and here's the rub) the G1000 had one overwhelming advantage. It's entire sound-set was from the Sound Canvas lineage, a tried and tested sound-set specifically designed to work TOGETHER. Although many of the voices, when listened to in solo, felt quite weak, especially compared to top of the line workstations, in a mix (where they are going to be heard 90% of the time) they all 'bed' together very well, and the whole was greater than the parts.

But Roland (and most other manufacturers) have been moving further and further away from the tried and tested sound-sets, partly as a result of one-upping each other in certain instrument areas, and unwillingness to spend the enormous amounts of cash to develop another completely coherent sound-set as integrated as the Sound Canvas/ Yamaha XG are.

So what we are left with is the remnants of many of the Canvas sounds, with newer sounds from the VA series and Fantom series grafted on, plus V-Drum kits and a partial VK-Organ implementation.

I don't think that Roland spent sufficient time on their voicing team to really successfully integrate all of these elements in the G70 OOTB....... This is not to say that they can't be made to bed together, just that Roland didn't finish the job before they released the G70 - prematurely in many opinions, including mine. The new E80s most touted feature is an independent EQ on every single voice, and every single drum sound WITHIN a kit, a tweaker's dream, perhaps, but also a tacit admission that it actually NEEDS this to sound good.

If the newer voices had been balanced against the originals in the first place (as was every new addition to the Sound Canvas set from the beginning) then the transition, and OOTB compatibility with older styles, would have been far more seamless.

But, I admit, Roland cut corners, cobbled together several already voiced components from different Roland lines, and just crossed their fingers that it would all work seamlessly. It doesn't..........

It CAN be made better, but it is up to the user to do the grunt work. This is a two-edged sword. On the minus side, it takes time, and a level of skill some don't have or care to learn, but on the positive side, once done, that G70 is YOURS, and no-one else's. No cookie-cutter styles, no sounding just like everyone else in the area that has the same arranger...... You are an individual.

It worries me that those of us who prefer OOTB perfection are content, when they hold down a C chord on a certain style, to sound just like everyone else holding down a C chord on that style. That's the LAST thing I want.

I completely understand Donny's decision to move back to Yamaha, to an OS he's familiar with, and sounds he's content with. He just did not have the time to spend personalizing his G70, and if he had said he only had a week or so to get it ready, I would have been the first to say 'forget it, can't be done'.........

Roland have a whole boat-load of new styles ready for the E-80, and I am anxious to see how well they can re-voice them for the G70. They obviously need to do this to shore up the style reputation of the G70, and help with the OOTB sound of the G70. This is a new sound-set for Roland, and obviously, it is taking them a little time to fine-tune it (remember how much better the SC-55 sounded, compared to the MT-32?), and prepare good styles for it.

The addition of velocity-switched drumkits and sounds COMPLETELY changes the playing field for style creation - in the past, it didn't matter if a style was programmed with less velocity and more volume, or vice versa...... not so with vel-switched sounds and kits - and it is taking time (and some Roland style creators STILL don't always use the bitchin' V-Kits!) to get new, well balanced styles out. In fact, since the G70's introduction, Roland themselves have come up with barely a handful of new styles, letting third party style developers (with a less managed balance and volume consistency) do most of the development. And, once again, too few of these use the V-Kits, so much of the vibrancy is lost.

Hopefully, much of this will be addressed in the future, but for now, if you hate tweaking and don't like the OOTB sound.......... STAY AWAY FROM THE G70.

But if it sounds good to you in the store, well, just relax....... (And I'm still confused as to why Donny, if he hated the sounds, and hated the styles, bought one in the first place..... I had two 4hr sessions in the store pretty much by myself before I would commit to the G70!)

Thanks for your straight talking and analysis Dikki. Its been long over due that this type of considered and brutally honest post was made concerning the G70 from an actual G70 owner and supporter.I was getting so frustrated with the "emperors new close phenomenon" where anyone that bought a G70 simply could only hear sweet sounds whilst those that chose not to own one clearly heard something totally different .I suspect many that have bought the instrument have simply decided to grit their teath and make their musical investment work because it wouldmmean a substantial personal loss to them to trade in and get something that required less post sale production.I accept comletely that the instrument could be individualised to sound the way that you want it to which could be completly different to the next guy with a G70 but was that your intention when you bought the instrument originaly ? If so then there is no harm done as you would have spent the countless hours revoicing the instrument anyway. However i am pretty sure that this was not rolands intention when they marketed and rushed out the G70 which obviously was not a "finished " product. What is there to stop any other keyboard from being "tweaked" to the users individual tastes so that for example my PA1X sounds different to the next guys or Scots T2 sounds different to Donny's ?

I only hope that the E80 does not require the same level of adjustment as the G70 because i cant see any existing G70 owners wanting to trade up becasue of the loss in value on their existing G70 and perhaps more discouragingly the time cost in revoicing a brand new instrument all over again.

Much respect to you for sticking with your choice of instrument and making it work for you. I hope it gives you many many years of pleasure.Buying new instruments every few years is an expensive business !

Best wishes

Spalding

I share your thoughts, reflections and conclusions, Diki. I have worked INTENSIVELY with the G-70 since December 2004, so both you and I represent a group of posters, who base our statements on SOLID KNOWLEDGE about the G-70 - in contrary to those, who have only a superficial knowledge - you know, the one, who played it for a few hours or the one, who know of a neighbour etc. etc....

Everything you say in EVERY message you write is extremely well-considered and unbiased. I recommend to anyone to listen CAREFULLY, when Diki says something about the G-70. He DEFINITELY knows, what he is talking about!

Of course there has to be space for people saying: "I just don't like it" - but to you who read these threads from the "sideline" I want to say that you should be careful, when reading the messages from the "haters", because they are often filled with wrong facts about the G-70!

Just look at Diki's latest post. He is definitely committed to the G-70, but he also points of important issues that are potential showstoppers for you, if you right now consider buying the G-70 - and he does it in an unbiased way... Your efforts are truly admirable, Diki!

I agree with Diki that the voicing and mixing of the G-70 ROM styles are poor OOTB. To you, who might not know this, I have re-voiced and re-mixed 271 of the 285 ROM styles. Everyone can download the re-worked style files from the download section at the G-70 user club website. It took me MONTHS to tweak the styles, so using my work as a G-70 newbie you can definitely cut corners to get the styles sound good! Hope some of you can use this information

You can read about my work here.

You can read about the latest release here.

You can download my work here.

/Søren

Just can't let this statement stand unanswered. I am reading far from all messages in here, but at the G-70 user club forum we stripped the emperor at long time ago! In the G-70 user club forum there are COUNTLESS numbers of threads regarding the poor OOTB sound of the G-70! So I definitely can't follow what you say?!? Here is the link to the forum , so you can see for yourself

Now you've got me all blushing.......

I hope that anyone who actually READS my posts rather than just lumping me in with the 'lovers' has realized that I'm no Roland apologist (come to the Danish site if you don't believe me!) and am very prepared to offer criticism, and suggestions to Roland about things that could be improved, and OS changes that could be implemented (and I've been honored that Roland actually have implemented some of my suggestions)

I think that ALL of our arrangers could be improved if, instead of getting into pi**ing contests about who has the BEST arranger, we ALL concentrate on what needs improving the most. I can imagine the smiles on the marketing divisions of Roland and Yamaha while all this rampant evangelizing goes on, but what we really need to see is sweat on the brows of the R&D divisions.........

I am still waiting to hear someone from the Yamaha camp step up to the plate and admit that, yes, perhaps there's a thing or two that could be improved there, also. Let's see if they have some honesty, too........

Spalding, if you re-read my post, you'll see my comment about OOTB perfection aimed squarely at those who want to use it OOTB. OF COURSE, everyone can tweak to their heart's content (and I truly respect those that do) but a large number of posters here seem to think that they don't want to/haven't got enough time to/shouldn't have to etc..

I come originally from a more workstation background (although I go FAR further back that those!!), and I usually EXPECT to have to tweak to get things my way. Even my G1000, well I've got old Mixermaps made up for Cubase VST (and earlier Atari Cubase!!) to control EVERY internal aspect of sys-ex programming for it...... It's incredible how much you could mess with the raw sound of Sound Canvas engines with sys-ex and controller codes!

Fortunately (or unfortunately, if workload is a criteria!) the G70 can be messed with at least as much, so, after much work, I am truly satisfied with the way my G70 sounds. I haven't yet heard a Tyros2 soundclip here that comes close to capturing the 'live band' sound that the G70 CAN achieve. Once those V-Kits are dialed in, and you start using a lot of the ghost notes and stick drops on the snare, this is the closest to a real drummer I've yet heard out of an arranger. After all, even real drummers are pretty happy with Roland V-Drums (they outsell Yamaha electronic drums by a wide margin)........

The truth of it is, you get of any keyboard what you put into it......... some you have to put more into than others, but the result is worth it.

Roland have a good start, and from what I've heard of the E80, they've already made considerable improvements to OOTB happiness (and tweaker's delight!). Now it is up to them to feed these beasts right. A steady diet of well tweaked styles - there's no basic reason other than Roland's laziness in producing new styles - and once again Roland can hold their head up high.

One last piece of honesty........ I rarely play solo (I enjoy musical dialog too much) and usually play with at least one guitarist, if not two, so a lot of the Yamaha's superiority in the guitar department is lost on me. If I played solo, I would definitely consider a Tyros2 as well as my G70, but I'd do my level best to not have to play it from it's own keyboard...... what a piece of (whoops, nearly started it all over again!!)......

And lastly, I probably do 50-60% SMFs (HIGHLY tweaked, mostly originals - I have a Hart Dynamics drumkit to trigger the drum sounds) and 30-40% just using the drum part from the arranger and kick LH Bass, and only use the full arranger 20% of the time. I am afraid, as an ex-bass player, pre canned basslines just don't cut it for me much of the time. So, in essence, I am using the G70 mostly for it's sounds, and the way it can be foot-triggered from the FC-7 for hands free operation, but in this way of using it, I haven't found it's equal, so for me (note the qualifier!) this is the perfect gigging keyboard.

Your Mileage May Vary, Objects in the mirror may be closer than they appear, Yadda, Yadda, Yadda........

Diki,

It must be very frustrating to purchase a keyboard for $3000.00, that otherwise fits all your needs, just to spend hours tweaking voices and effects.

What were the sound engineers from Roland thinking when they released this keyboard. Do they use focus groups? Beta Testers? Didn't they realize they had a problem and then ask local tech support to correct the voicings?

Look, when the G70 came out, I was so interested in this keyboard because of all the features it had, I postponed my purchase of the new Tyros 2 to replace my Tyros 1.

I waited to see the reaction and acceptance from new users and some candid evaluations. To my horror and dismay, this keyboard was not met with much approval when it was first released and developed a stigma to it that it was an inferiour sounding keyboard compared to other offerings. And, it required a tremendous amount of tweaking and adjustment.

Then we heard that Roland Support centers were holding back shipments of G70's so local centers could make corrections and adjustments to the effects and sounds.

And now, after many many months on the market we have a dedicated owner such as yourself admitting this keyboard required much post-setup work on the owners part.

I just don't understand where Roland's head is at? Are there any representatives from Roland who frequent here? Maybe they should. They could learn a lot from the frustration and teachings on this board related to Roland keyboards.

Just to summarize, I am always hoping for great success for new keyboards in hopes they will meet my needs and the needs of many others here. I wanted SOO MUCH for the G70 to be successful and wonderful. I would have purchased one in a heartbeat. For keyboards like the G70 and the Lionstracs to go through such growing pains and negative early reviews creates distrust, skepticism, and negative goodwill for potential buyers - EVEN AFTER THE VENDOR FIXES THE PROBLEMS. It' very hard to recover from such ill conceived releases.

I know you are now a very happy customer, but please accept my sympathy for the frustration you must have endured along the way.



------------------
Al Giordano
www.al-giordano.com

Tyros 2, Yamaha P-250, Korg Triton Extreme 76, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums

Well, although the frustration factor is higher for some than others (as I said, I EXPECT to tweak anything, as most of the power users of any arranger admit to doing), Always have, always will. If I didn't want to tweak, I would have stayed with what I already had!

But the frustration I may feel wouldn't improve by a move to Tyros2, unfortunately. I HAVE to have 76 keys, and really am not satisfied with any of the 76 note workstations's key-feel either. The G70 is just THAT good.......

While many criticize the G70 for it's OOTB sound and styles (myself included) it IS fixable, something that no amount of tweaking is going to do for the Tyros's key-feel. The OS navigation on the G70 is also something of paramount importance to me - I am in a lot of different musical situations all the time, and ease of setting things up on the fly makes or breaks a keyboard's usefulness - and once again, no amount of tweaking is going to turn two buttons into a slider.

There are many things that, IMHO, ARE superior on the G70 to any other arranger. OOTB perfection is not one of them, but is not my most important consideration. A punchy, in your face sound, as close to a live rhythm section as possible is probably my first consideration, something I've yet to hear from the Tyros2. It's just a little too polite and polished for me. The SA sounds are to die for, but the rhythm section is where your power comes from.

As I said, I usually play with others, rather than solo, so drums that don't need anyone else to 'back off' a bit makes it easier on my guitarists. Few are capable of the compressed dynamic that most arrangers have, and there's nothing worse than having a guitar solo swamp your rhythm section! It's usually better to have them struggle to keep up with your drums, something they are more used to from live playing!!

The piano and Hammond sounds are also of paramount importance to me (as they should be for ANY serious player) and once again (IMHO), game, set and match to the G70. Nothing beats being able to grab a real slider and tweak your registration while you play, something I'm familiar with from my B3 days. Buttons just don't cut it, one reason I've never got a Nord, no matter how good they sound.

To my ears, probably the most unbalanced section of the G70's sound-set comes in the basses, which offer few that match each other for low end content. It's possible to set up one at a time to work well (I do 80% of my playing LH bass with the Wild Ac Bass upright sound, which to my ears balances the drums the best without tweaking) but if you want to switch around quickly, there's work to be done. I think that a lot of the 'boomy' comments come from styles that use some of the 'fatter' bass sounds, exacerbated by having the Mastering section already set to fatten thinner styles.

Rule #1....... Turn OFF the Mastering Tools EQ and Multi-band compressor if you have a decent PA. It just doesn't need it, and creates more problems than it solves. Your board's EQ is probably better, and at least visible all the time, something that a hidden page of EQ isn't. It's all too easy to forget you have 6db of 200Hz boost if you can't see it, and then find yourself going 'why is everything so tubby?'.

The basses CAN be tweaked by inserting an EQ on them and balancing against others that you use (it's a waste of the insert, but if it makes everything gel.....) or sometimes just a simple adjustment of the filter cutoff and resonance will do. So...... ultimately fixable.

It is a little sad that, while many have posted positively on the 76 key-feel, basic 'live' sound quality, ease of navigation of the OS, outstanding piano and Hammond sound, and many other things that the G70 excels at, many bail on it due to stuff that CAN be fixed, something that can't be done to improve other arrangers' weak points, unless their manufacturers come out with better models.

I find it better to think of the G70 as a workstation with arranger capabilities, rather than the other way around. Despite it's high work factor, something at least I'M prepared to do, I have yet to see anything that comes close to it's overall usefulness and ease of operation, at least for the way I work.


BTW, kbrkr, why on earth are you interested in hearing what the users and reviewers here at SZ got to say about the G70? A bigger hotbed of uncritical reportage is hard to find! Those who love their Tyros2 generally haven't got a positive thing to say about G70 and vice versa (although, if you actually read my posts, you'll see I'm NOT one of those!). The only opinion you should trust is your own. Play them all, make up your own mind, and then come back here and laugh at statements like 'Tyros2 crushes the competition' or 'the G70 is the superior arranger' and try to post a balanced review (and be prepared to be flamed!)........

Dikki,
Playing mostly in a band situation!
You should try what I did kidding..

Just use a VR-760 and you're all set..
Tweaking is a breeze and the sliders are there where they belong. (Leftside)

Fred

Diki....
do you have any Mp3's of your band...would love to hear the G70 in a band sitauion if possible?

Coming shortly...... The last live CD we recorded was while I still had my G1000, but I'm going to start recording again, soon (as soon as the weather cools down!).

Stay tuned.