There has been a discussion on why arranger KBs don't sell well and /or why they are less popular here compare to EU and rest of the world.

feel free to join in.

reasons(why smaller arranger market in US)
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This is my take.

It's not just EU,it's the rest of the world)asia or south america) vs US.

reason?

simple.

Compare to the rest of the world we have more LIVE music with LIVE bands.(other countries have their LIVE music with their traditional instruments) unless it's their pop or pop orientated music(in a small bar situation - an arranger took over)where in US you can still hire 3-4 piece live band relatively cheap .

The Audience - more arranger bar going people(at night) are also younger than in US / expect live music in the place(where arrangers comes - (arrangers there are also dance machines too-all newest hit dance songs are written and played in bars).

they still have younger crowd who loves harder rock live music (where in US more younger crowd is into -Hip hop or DJ).


another thing

prices of the instruments -

do you notice that for gtr related products,it's THE CHEAPEST in US. 99$ simple Digitech pedal is 99 pounds(149$) in UK and so on.(think Gas prices-it's the tax-3$ now in US,6-7$ in EU(yes both in UK or Germany).


US vs rest of the world

even after Korea or now China -overseas gtr production-
the standard instrument for pro live band is always a US strat ,LP or high end other guitars which relatively is more expensive for the rest of the world(yeah you can buy a US strat with a month's pay here but not so in the rest of the world).(I'm talking about pop orientated music which has the largest market in every country.(not hard rock or havier stuff where EU still have the edge over US as live bands.)

another reason(for Bands)- Transportation - since almost everyone has cars in US so lugging and transporting your gear (KB or GTR equipment) is less painful than getting a cab.


And not but the least - the biggest market of Western music(not just country music) - ie blues,jazz,country etc music is still in good old USA where you have tons of bands making tons of original music with LIVE bands.that's not the same with EU(compare the population too) or rest of the world.

I still love to see many LIVE bands with original music in this good old US of A and still enjoy to play and make money with my arranger/ and play gtr in a live band.

Well I would say I can't agree with you on all your points. I live in Europe, Norway to be exact. And the way you describe, is not accurate.

There are a lot of bands here, and no they don't all play folk music. We have cover bands, imitation bands, original bands, high profiled bands, low profiled bands, bands who sing in norwegian, bands who sing in english, solo artists of every listed variation, we have DJ's, rappers, big shows, small shows, and just about every other thing you have over there.

One Man Bands are rarely popular in clubs, bars, etc. They are usually only playing in weddings, birthdays, christmas parties and other private social gatherings. In clubs and bars you have the Pianoentertainers, or DJ's. The latter beeing the most popular. Most clubs and bars cater to the younger audience, those who are 18-20, and some for those who are 25 - 30. The first group prefer DJ's playing cd's, the last group is a bit widespread. A lot of places have live bands, even "open mic nights" for up and coming artists.

The reason why arrangers are so popular here, is that we have a tradition, in weddings and other social happenings, we almost always have live music. This tradition made a lot of people tossing their drummer and bass player, buying a keyboard, that way they didn't have to share their earnings.

As for prices, yes stuff is a bit more expensive over here. But USA is a bit country, low tax, more people, capitalism, all that add up to lower prices. But overall prices are on average not more than 20-30% higher over here, mostly due to taxes. Ex: PSR-3000 costs 1500$ in USA, and it costs 2000$ here in norway.

A Gibson guitar costs from 1000$ - 5000$ depending on type. Most people here earn $3000 or more a month. A USA Fender Strat, costs from 1000$ to...

Norway is a country with a lot of distances, we all have cars, most of use have two or more cars.

And gas prices have reached a record high of 2$ a litre...(about 7.50$ a gallon) so you are right, gas is expensive, I use about 500$ a month just for gas.

Having traveled playing music in a lot of other european countries, I find that this situation is pretty simular. At least in Scandinavia and southern europe.
DJ's are still the most popular, and the cheapest entertainment you can hire for a club, bands play a lot in the summer, omb's are for weddings and christmas parties, and pianists play in high energy bars.

Doc-Z

I also live in Norway, and I echo doc-z.
But I also play clubs and dance restaurants as a OMB.
In addition, I think you cannot match the diversity of popular, folk, jazz and new age style music that a multi cultural Europe holds.

I also stated that " rest of the world"-(including asia and south america,etc).

Norway( 4.5 million population with 40,000$ GDP) (and other rich but small EU countries)may be a different story.Think about east EU countries like Romania etc(ratio wise ,arranger usage is still higher than US).I've been told several times by US resident and/or touring EU musicians that ALL EU countries (exception of UK,yeah not even Germany)LIVE band/arranger ratio is still large if compared to US.

[This message has been edited by jamman (edited 08-30-2005).]

I think maybe one of the factors affecting Arranger popularity may lie in the fact that they tend to cover a huge range of styles and therefore only have a limited number for each particular genre. I travel extensively in the US and I find the music played and listened to in the US more homogenous than in Europe. That is, there is far more country/rock/pop played in the US (and sometimes it seems, little else). So if you’re limited to using one or two styles to please your audience then an arranger keyboard is going to be a bad bet. In an environment where a more eclectic approach to music styles is welcome and expected, the arranger is going to be a more useful tool – this may be true of much of Europe hence the higher take up of arrangers.

It was interesting that one comment on this forum a while ago expressed bemusement at ‘Country and Western’ being classified as a ‘World’ style on one arranger (Newsflash! It’s just one more ethnic style to the rest of us). Maybe that differing perspective says it all.

The difference may lie mostly in the audience expectations rather than the musicians. In Europe we have far less radio stations so they therefore have to cater to a wider audience by broadcasting a greater variety of musical styles. (This is changing in the last few years with the increase in the number of specialist stations starting up). On the other hand I have met many people in the US who never listen to, or are even exposed to, music beyond a very defined and narrow genre (partly helped by being able to listen to radio stations with a very limited style play list). As I say, this is starting to happen more and more in Europe and is to my mind a sad development.

Now before I get flamed by all the Americans on the board let me say none of this is meant in any way to be derogatory of US music or musicians; it’s just an observation. Indeed there are many glorious exceptions to this generalisation; hence the strong US presence on this board and the many fine American musicians and composers who consistently break the musical mold. Actually I salute those who bravely try to expand their audience’s musical horizons whilst having to please them at the same time (otherwise no repeat bookings!). For this job an arranger is the perfect tool.

I have a different take coming from the New York, US market.

I think the US music scene, for the most part, is much more "edgy" and "grittier" than the rest of the world. We lead the music world in Hip Hop, Rap, Alternative (to some degree) and other genres. An arranger keyboard can't keep up with these types of music styles and thus musicians here lean more towards workstations which provide more of a creative pallette then an arranger which sort of forces you into "pigeon holed" types and styles of music.

Just my 50 cent....

Al

Well I agree to a point there. American music often does have that harder edge – one of the main reasons I mostly go for US made synths; Moog and Sequential in the early days, Korg’s modelled synths (I believe designed by the guys at Sequential) and my beloved Kurzweil. Many Japanese synths have in the past had a ‘nice’ sound, sitting well in the mix but not grabbing you by the… (well, you know!). Japanese workstations have been getting better of late, with a greater range of sounds to call upon but sadly arrangers have been lagging behind in this department – still perceived by many ‘serious’ musicians to be stuck in the ‘land of cheesy’.

I think this is changing with the latest batch of arrangers, in particular the PA1x and G70 and we’re now seeing arrangers that can start to rival workstations in terms of sound palette and editability with the added bonus of built-in styles. Of course, you can always turn the styles off but unlike previous generations of arrangers you’ll be left with a half decent keyboard instead of a collection of naff sounds with a naffer keybed.

Players, of weddings and old folks homes might want to cover their ears for the next paragraph

I hear what you’re saying about Hip-hop, rap, etc, but to my ears the vast majority of music coming from the states is still guitar based whereas I think the Europeans have long been quicker off the mark to adopt and embrace other instruments and styles. Is it possible that a European musician is more likely to try out that strange Rumba rhythm built into their keyboard and incorporate it into their set? I can’t see many US acts doing that sort of thing (although a few clearly do). What I’m trying to say here is that the US music scene is predominantly made up of styles developed or evolved in the US (and thanks for that guys – it’s added a wonderful freshness to the world music scene). Whereas the European music scene has been doing its thing for much longer and has therefore just absorbed the American influence into something that was already going strong. This has had the effect of encouraging the European music scene into being even more eclectic, where US created genres are still new enough to provide decades yet of work to refine and develop. (rider: of course that doesn’t mean there aren’t loads of US Musicians and composers doing all kinds of world fusion things – just trying to generalise here).

Add to all this that Arranger-Central is somewhere in Italy and maybe we’ve got a situation where these things simply aren’t offering potential US buyers what they want. Personally I’m happy with that situation. Sure, most arrangers have (to my ears) totally useless styles built in but I’m not sure I would need lots more rock, grunge, hip-hop, rap styles in their place. I agree, if I was doing that style of music my first choice would be a workstation. But as a composer, I mostly use the styles to challenge my preconceptions of what a song or piece of music should (or could) sound like – “I wonder what that would sound like with a Latin/Arabic/Siberian (delete as applicable) beat?”. I guess that makes me far from the average user of an arranger anyway. But for me at last arrangers have moved from providing cheesy sounding versions of classic songs to workstations with creative potential. Far from perfect, but worthy of adding to my toolkit and an aid to producing something that little bit different.

Now there is a bit of news I didn't realize. Very interesting points. Thank God this is a Global forum.

I truly believe that, were an Arranger keyboard marketed in the USA WITHOUT a single Schlager, Valz or Folksmarsch in it, it would sell WAY better! These styles are utterly useless (and to our ears - no offense - utterly cheesy) that the minute you dial into one while you're trying out the keyboard in a store, you go WHOA!! and maybe miss some of the better Gospel Styles, or Rock or whatever.

It seems that the USA divisions of the major manufacturers of Arranger keyboards do next to NOTHING to change the factory styles to a more American taste. Roland Brazil, Roland Scandinavia and others are always adding free styles (or at least marketing them) on their websites. What do we get in the USA from Roland....... ZIP!

I think they realize that if Arrangers become more Americanized it will cut into sales of things like Fantoms and Motifs etc., and ANY sales drop, even because of another Division's sales rise, will reflect poorly on them (and their bonuses!) so nothing gets done.

What is needed is an American company to make cutting-edge American Styles for American players, and you will see the popularity of arrangers go through the roof. After all, Hip Hop is nothing but small chunks of arrangement cut and pasted and layered......... ideal fodder for arrangers! How about it Roland, a Ghetto Arranger series, nothing but HipHop and Rap styles! You don't think that wouldn't go over in the 'hood'??

What about the Cowboy's Best Friend Series, or the Sunday Gospel Series?! ANYTHING but more Schlagers!!

If these Styles get prioritized, just watch the rest of the world snap them up like hot-cakes, I got a sneaky suspicion they would MUCH rather play a P. Diddy or DMX style than a Tarantella any day!

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 08-30-2005).]

What arranger keyboard manufacturers may have to think about doing is build a keyboard the same way you would a workstation with wonderful sounds and maybe just a few styles. Then offer specific styles sets as additional software a user can buy and install on the keyboard.

This way you can have a hip-hop style set, jazz style set and so on that a user can choose from.

There is really no reason IMO that arrangers shouldn't be popular in the US. They just have to make them and market them to the likes, needs and wants of a US market. To me the most economical way to do this is by way of a style and sound option to a particular style of music. They don't have to build a separate keyboard hardware for the US market unless there is substantial evidence that the US market demands one.

Also, this way, traditional “workstations” and “arrangers” could be merged together. For example, you could have the Motif and I have the Motif with additional styles to complement my arranger playing.

This would also deal with the issue of cost. Everyone would pay the same price for the initial keyboard, but since I want extra styles and I will be a solo act getting all the money for myself, then I am prepared to pay extra for those styles.

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 08-30-2005).]