I am returning, for this thread only, to see if we can reach a compromise solution on the topic of off-topic (OT) posts on the Arranger Forum.

I am one of the members who believes that we have had too many OT posts here recently. I have taken my complaints directly to Nigel, who responded by telling me that participants here need to "act more grown up". Very well Nigel... this is the thread for us all to grow a little with, and you can start the process by allowing your policies to be more open to constructive criticism.

For a time (IMHO) we've had posters, including but not restricted to, [Names Removed By Nigel] who flooded this forum with OT posts. While they sometimes talked about arrangers, the majority of their posts didn't and they poured OT's into this forum causing a lot of frustration for those who came here specifically to discuss arrangers. Anyone can review their posts to see if they agree or not, and there are probably better examples to choose from - I am not intending to single these individuals out nor start yet another flame war but examples had to be given.

Nigel essentially states there is no problem and he will not take any "police" action to restrict posts here, yet it is clear that members have left this forum because of the OT posts and/or the open hostility that exists here at times, so there is a problem. While I don't think Nigel can do anything about hostility (other than remove offensive posts), I do think some of it stems from the frustration of seeing OT posts flood this forum.

I would like to propose a compromise solution: I would like to see OT posts in the Arranger Forum moved to the General Forum by Nigel for a while to see if it helps restore a little order to the Arranger Forum. It can be done on a trial basis, possibly with some notice left in it's place if/when a topic is moved. This might even help generate more interest in the General Forum. The fact that we have a General Forum should be sufficient reason to restrict the topics of the Arranger Forum to arrangers. I believe that once people realize that OT posts won't stay here (particularly from newbies) that many problems will be solved.

I think The Bar was a good idea but it seems to be more of a place for social OT's (ie: gig mishaps, weddings etc.) rather than non-arranger gear-related OT's that show up in the Arranger Forum (ie: "which is better - Triton or Fantom?").

I don't call this a police action but a "weeding of the garden", allowing the intended purpose/topic of this forum to thrive. Whether or not there is a lot or a litle action in the arranger world currently, I know of no other place where arrangers are the specific topic (other than Yamaha's arrangerworkstation forums) and I would like to see this forum enjoy a little protection from those who would turn it into something else.

Nigel has said to me that
he thinks I'm the only member who feels the OT posts are a problem. A simple question to this forum: is he right?



[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 04-30-2005).]

Hey Pro, good to see you back. Wow, I didn't even know there is a General forum.

Why create The Bar when you have General?

I have stated this many times, I'll say it once more.

I do not see a problem with OT in this forum. Once again, you must have MOVEMENT and lots of it for a forum to thrive. You want people coming back a lot. If the pace is fast, they come back more. Many times, this forum barely moves.

Another thing is community. Over time, you start to kinda like people and you want to share this or that. Like, just two days ago, I started to create a post about one of the most unusual things I've ever seen. An 'alien' critter I came up on during a hike. But, due to people who don't like OT, I didn't post it. It would take me 30 minutes to tell this story. I wasn't going to waste my time putting it in The Bar. There are not enough eyeballs to make it worthwhile. So, a seriously cool story, you guys will never know.

Lastly, time. It takes time to click here, click there, to visit multiple forums. I have seen it time and time again, you get too many sub-forums, it hurts. My opinion. I try to respect whatever the rules are.

I just don't see what the big deal is with OT. I honestly don't. But, hey, obviously, some people do.

The cool thing about being alive today is technology. I am friggin' blown away by the lowly psr2000. I am blown away by conversing with people on a forum like this from all over the doggone world. That's amazing. And now, ScottYee will attest, you can even TALK to them live. FOR FREE. And even PLAY YOUR KEYBOARD for them while talking. Now, that is darn sure amazing.

So, I'm pretty fired up about the whole thing. I'm a guitar player but heck, an arranger is a load of fun. And pretty cool for making demo's of the songs I write.

So, whatever it takes to make it work.

One of the problems with trying to police “OT” post is that what may start as “OT” for arrangers may very well end up relating in some way to arranger use, playing, and perception and so on.

Also, on the other end of the stick, what if the topic is on topic and then it goes off in to a different topic. I think that would be just too much work for the moderator to police.

Personally, I have not noticed an extremely alarming amount of “OT” postings. Quite frankly, I think the arranger forum has been slow. Partly because there hasn’t been any new hardware keyboard arranger offerings from Yamaha (of which most of the “older” members are fans) and like him or not, we have been “Uncle Daveless.”

I think if you think a topic is “OT” you don’t have to view it. Also, if persons want more hardware arranger topics, they can always start threads on those topics (as far as I know, all members can start new threads).

As far as hostility goes, we should have respect for each other’s musical style of playing, opinions and feelings when ever we post. We should treat others like how we would like to be treated. To me, this rule applies whether you are responding to a “regular” posting member or a one time or occasional poster.

Why can’t we just get along?

I am less concerned about OT's and BARS and General Topics, as I am about the concept of civility and respect for individuals.

I think there are people, who we've had trouble with in the past, logging on to SZ with new User ID's who are causing trouble, then changing their names to new id's and thus causing more trouble. Only NIGEL can tell for sure with the IP logging feature.

I am all for a good discussion and disagreement, but I am NOT at all attracted to sniping and personal attacks on ANYONE!

I come here for the friendship, comraderie, showmanship, and expertise that abounds here. If I want disrespect, anger, and low-class, there are plenty of other forums on the net where I can get a heaping teaspoon of that.

[This message has been edited by kbrkr (edited 04-27-2005).]

As far as OT threads go, I am afraid that there are plenty of them on every Forum: right now on Keyboard Corner (the Music Player Forum about Keyboards) there is a thread entitled "Dry cleaning prices" (the original poster is an american who moved to Holland and is complaining about the price he had to pay to have his tux dry-cleaned for a job)
So, considering that Keyboard Corner is the Forum where I go when I want to read something really related to music... I guess that this leaves little hope, doesn't it?
I am not even mentioning the Harmony Central Forum, where "off topic" threads seem to be even prevalent on "on topic" ones!
I have to say that I was glad when Nigel took the decision to open "The Bar", because at least this got rid of all those useless and annoying threads about politics, economics, religion, etc, who ALWAYS ended up with people jumping at the throat of each other.
I have long time ago abandoned the idea of using this Forum to discuss more musically relevant topics, like the chord changes that other people use to play a given song, because I have seen that almost nobody here is interested into this kind of discussion. Let's face it: arranger players are affected with GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome) even more than the average keyboard player, maybe because we are all grown up people with a steady income, who can afford to buy a new keyboard almost every year.... but at least this has a positive side, because if you want to know the truth, all the truth and nothing else than the truth about a new arranger keyboard, this is the place to visit!
I remember when the Korg PA1 X pro first appeared: well, Daddy JJ gave his opinion here maybe the day after the first keyboard hit the european market, and the same happened for the Roland G 70, with Roel giving us his candid opinion.
Anyway, to get back to Jim's original question: I don't like off topic threads at all, but on the other hand don't consider entirely "off topic" a question about a keyboard which is not strictly an arranger, like a Motif or a Fantom; after all, even on Keyboard Corner or Harmony Central (where 95% of the questions are about synths or digital pianos) every now and then there are people asking infos about arranger keyboards: all it takes is to re-direct them to the right place!
Final consideration: I really hope that Jim will stay with us, because I think that his presence is much needed here; at least he is one of the fews who enjoy talking arrangers from a technical point of view.

I for one, am glad that the Pro is back...I hope that he stays...if we could all just respect one another and be civil toward each other, I think we could all get along..peace
Tony Rome

Part of the charm of this place involves differences...differences in experience, age, equipment preferences. Frankly, occasionally, I've seen some silly-borderline irritating posts...and I've learned to take them for what they are...even get a chuckle over them.

Unquestionably, the net result is WAY MORE GOOD THAN BAD! I don't have to agree with you, but I'd be a fool not to realize that I can learn something from you!

Look at the friendships we've developed!
The common bond of music and civility is just too strong to let petty crap get in the way.

I'm glad to be here, and appreciate each member...WARTS and all!


Russ

Quote from Dreamer:
I have long time ago abandoned the idea of using this Forum to discuss more musically relevant topics, like the chord changes that other people use to play a given song, because I have seen that almost nobody here is interested into this kind of discussion.

Dreamer ... that's too bad, because a 'stock chord' player like myself could really gain from such a discussion ...

I really think part of the 'lack of interest' is due to the lack of new market products, especially for the 'yammies' around here ... get a Tyros II or a psr4000 out there and maybe things will pick up ... the shame of it is there won't be another technics kb (that will be better than all of them ... There, I've said it and I'm GLAD !!! )) for the 'yammies' to criticize ...

I just hope that Donny didn't lose his sense of humor along with the 80 + pounds ... I miss him already ...
t.

PS: I don't mind criticism as long as it's not derogatory like "your playing sux", so perhaps I'll have to find a way to post a couple of songs so that we can get some 'critical' juices flowing again and get some life back into the forum ... ..
t.

Tony, this is maybe the best thing I have read on this whole thread: let's start talking about music again (and of course about the tools we used to make it!)

its a relatively small forum in the GREAT BIG wide world of forums...who cares...just enjoy life and the fact you CAN..

peace, out