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#96152 - 02/13/07 03:10 PM Re: Tyros III
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
If we assume that capitalism is working, I am afraid we have to assume that there ISN'T sufficient demand for module arrangers any more. What POSSIBLE reason would any manufacturer refuse a significant source of revenue?

The sad fact is, module users are a small fraction of the market, most arranger buyers are NOT pros (not by a Grand Canyon-wide margin!), and most hobbyist do not want the complexity of setting a master keyboard up to control a sophisticated arranger.

I used to own an RA90, and controlling THAT from an Ensoniq was enough of a challenge, limited though it was. Think of the myriad buttons and sliders on a G70 or T2. Now try to think of ANY master controller with that many buttons, and then think of whether the arranger manufacturer even allows MIDI control of each and every function. Now think of how complex a task it will be to program your keyboard to address each and every switch.

You can't put all the knobs and buttons on the module, or it would be just as big as the arranger it replaces!

You just have to face up to the facts that firstly, the arranger market is a fraction of the total sales of any of the Big 3, and that pros are a fraction of THAT fraction. If arranger module sales had dominated keyboard sales in the past, things would be different, BUT THEY DIDN'T....

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 02-13-2007).]

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#96153 - 02/13/07 03:43 PM Re: Tyros III
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4643
Loc: West Virginia
Diki,
Module version or rack versions in arranger format may not be in as high demand, but they sure as hell are in high demand with the top workstations. The Korg Triton Rack, and Yamaha EX5-R sold well. Hell I can't tell you the number of personal and large scale studios that I've seen that had both the Triton Rack, and Yamaha EX5-R in the same rack shelf, one on top of the other.

So maybe module demand might be a fraction of the arranger line, but module demand would not make up a small fraction on the synth end. Full modules/racks "do" take away from the sales of the keyboard itself. If they started making these things again sales of the keyboards would without question drop.
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#96154 - 02/13/07 04:26 PM Re: Tyros III
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Squeak, you are confusing workstation use with arranger use.

If you already have a good workstation, you can easily control a rack workstation (although getting one WS's arpeggiator to reliably trigger another WS's arpeggiator can be tricky, amongst many other things). But getting a workstation or master keyboard to control a T2 for instance, is another matter altogether.

I can't imagine the complexity of mapping each and every control of my G70 to a master keyboard (and know full well that there isn't a MIDI command for every function on the front panel). Ergonomically, you could never fit all the needed buttons onto a module without making the buttons too small to be useful, live.

Primarily, all a rack WS module does is make sounds. You start to get into some VERY complicated country just trying to get master keyboard X to control module Y's arpeggiator, while stopping and starting module Z's RAM tracks, all the time pitch ribbon-ing it's internal synth engine. Most people just call up patch A from module B and layer it with another patch from another module.

Arrangers are SO much more complicated than this. Patches are the LEAST of your worries. Style selection on the fly, registration changes, multi-pad triggering, variations, breaks, intro/outro selection, tempo rits and accels, chord recognition modes, bass inversion, sync start and stop, need I go on?

What keyboard out there has the buttons and the flexibility to control all that, even if the arranger HAD the codes to be controlled? I know I certainly wouldn't want the job of setting the whole thing up!

I think you are coming at this backwards. It is FAR easier to control a WS module from an arranger, than it is to control an arranger module from a WS. Patch selection via MIDI is fairly commonplace in decent arrangers, the module can be programmed to do it's thing to the clock of the arranger, and a little fader/knob box can be added to control WS features that the arranger can't address.

Or is it that you'd just rather be SEEN playing a WS, while they HEAR you playing an arranger....?!

Practically, it's MUCH easier the other way.

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#96155 - 02/13/07 04:27 PM Re: Tyros III
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4643
Loc: West Virginia
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to confuse the two, but it's just that I can't imagine the desire for a full functioning arranger module being so low considering how often we see the issue of weight surface on the zone.
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#96156 - 02/13/07 04:43 PM Re: Tyros III
Anthony Johnson Offline
Member

Registered: 02/03/02
Posts: 307
Loc: Sheffield Yorkshire England
Hi Diki
you don't have to program every function in your master keyboard.
Mostly just use the buttons on the module itself - They are there to be used.
Take a look at the Gem Genesys XP and the Ketron XD3

Tony, Sheffield

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#96157 - 02/13/07 05:35 PM Re: Tyros III
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Most people bitching about weight here don't use big workstations for the same reason. Try lifting my K2500 (only a 76-er!) if you want to make a G70 seem light! If you want a QUALITY action, and loads of high quality knobs and sliders, and stability (can't play well while your keyboard bounces around!), weight is the price you pay.

There are well documented problems with many ultra-lightweight 76 and 88 note keyboards, because of the flexing issue. If you support them just right, no problem, but put them on the wrong X-stand and notes stick or fail to trigger accurately. No decent pianist would EVER put up with a piano that bounced! Or B3 player. You are supposed to PLAY the keyboard, not chase it around on stage!

If you LIKE flimsy buttons and keys, there's always the T2....

I'm sorry, Tony, but by the time you got all the knobs and buttons and displays from my G70 into a module, it would be nearly as big as the real thing. Most modules get around this by making the buttons too small (or menu-ing up a lot more). Plus, there is a little thing called ergonomics. There is a reason why some buttons are near your right hand, and some near your left...

What I don't understand is why this generation of keyboard players is the first to be unable to lift 30 lbs or more.... There was no option to do this 20 yrs ago, and yet most kept working! I remember seeing Fender Rhodes's and even Hammonds lugged around by players in their 50's and even 60's (that's why you have kids!) but todays senior citizens want helium-like keyboards, and then bitch about how flimsy and unreliable they are!

Piano players, at least, seem to understand that bounce is the death of control.

-----------------------------------------------

BTW, Tony, I used to play the old Sheffield Tiffany's back in the late 70's before I moved to the States. Is it still there? I used to play in Mecca bands in Sheffield, Nottingham and Birmingham/Coventry back in the days when they hired ten-piece bands (and sometimes two bands a night!). Ahhhh, the good old days.....

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#96158 - 02/14/07 01:25 AM Re: Tyros III
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:


If you LIKE flimsy buttons and keys, there's always the T2....





Ian



------------------
Cha d’dhùin doras nach d’fhosgail doras.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#96159 - 02/14/07 04:22 AM Re: Tyros III
rolandfan Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/02
Posts: 918
Loc: South Africa
I like the key feel of T2.. Heavy keys hurt my hand and i feel l can play better on a keyboard that has a synth action.. G70 and pa1x pro too heavy key feel for my liking. I hope T3 has the same keyfeel as T2. I also prefer they keep it at 61 keys cos i simply wud use the octave button on T2 if i needed to go higher... Maybe there are too many ppl like me and that is why yamaha (who kiss every $10 they get) wont invest after the 9000 pro disaster..

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#96160 - 02/14/07 05:09 AM Re: Tyros III
Anthony Johnson Offline
Member

Registered: 02/03/02
Posts: 307
Loc: Sheffield Yorkshire England
BTW, Tony, I used to play the old Sheffield Tiffany's back in the late 70's before I moved to the States. Is it still there? I used to play in Mecca bands in Sheffield, Nottingham and Birmingham/Coventry back in the days when they hired ten-piece bands (and sometimes two bands a night!). Ahhhh, the good old days.....

Hi Diki,
Sorry to tell you that Tiffany's (or Locarno as I knew it) is no longer. Don't go down that way very often but passed it last year and it was derelict and looked as though they were about to pull it down. I was quite sad - had some great times in there between 1957 - 1963. Just about all the live music venues have now gone - the future for musicians over here is very bleak. I only know one kb player who still plays live now when I used to know dozens. Hope it's better in the States or there will be no demand for keyboards at all.
Best wishes, Tony, Sheffield.

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#96161 - 02/14/07 05:10 AM Re: Tyros III
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 40918
Quote:
Originally posted by rolandfan:
I like the key feel of T2.. Heavy keys hurt my hand and i feel l can play better on a keyboard that has a synth action.. G70 and pa1x pro too heavy key feel for my liking. I hope T3 has the same keyfeel as T2. I also prefer they keep it at 61 keys cos i simply wud use the octave button on T2 if i needed to go higher... Maybe there are too many ppl like me and that is why yamaha (who kiss every $10 they get) wont invest after the 9000 pro disaster..


RF I agree with ya buddy

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