Taike-

Mr. G. isn't forcing anyone, certainly not either of us to believe as he does. He's encouraging, advising, hoping, threatening, cajoling, etc. but no one's forcing any beliefs upon us.

I think G is sincere. I doubt he stands to make a nickel off of you or I and whether we join him. I find him to be genuine...

You know me well enough to know that many of your points resonated with me as well. It too stumps me that while I'm generally pre-programmed to hold Christian beliefs, I acknowledge that if at birth, I had been adopted by a Jewish family from Israel, or a Muslim family from Saudi Arabia, my beliefs would be just as heartfelt, but quite different.

Perhaps it was God's plan that I was born in Pittsburgh PA and not elsewhere, but who can say?

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Bill in Dayton


[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 08-12-2010).]

Bill, when someone tells me that I'm doomed if I don't answer to a God (meaning the god HE worships and the faith HE believes in), it pretty much comes over as being forced, as being given the ultimatum. It was enough cause for a former president to condemn an entire nation just because it happened to take a different approach. No one wants to be threatened.

Did you see me condemn his belief? Far from it although he may perceive that I did. What I did do was question his method of telling me and Chas, well..., read the above statement.

If one talks to me like this, tells me that anyone who doesn't confirms to his belief can't be right, it's no longer a dialog but a personal attack. He might as well tell me straight to my face that my whole family is condemned since they're of a different faith as his.

It's up to him to either feel hurt or upset. He brought it up to himself. Whether he says "a" god or his god, it doesn't take a genius to know what god he actually means. I believe the choice is ours to make, not his.

Nowhere will you find statements by me that he'll has to answer to MY god or he'll be doomed. That'd be preposterous, throwing all notions of an open dialog to the dogs.

Why not just accept that a Christian answers to his god, a Hindu to his, and so on. "You're either with us or against us" has caused millions of deaths throughout history. Never was given the notion that perhaps different regions or cultures call for different beliefs. I am not willing to concede to anyone believing that his is the only truth as much as one won't to mine. If I happen to be wrong after all, so be it. Nothing I can do about it then. I very much doubt that an instant switch from one faith to another will work out in my or anyone's favor. If that's all what it takes, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

It is NOT the religion that makes the man but man that makes the religion. One should only be judged by his actions, not by his faith.

Had I started this thread making claims that anyone who doesn't answer to my faith will have to face my god, the participation would've reached a far higher number than it has now. But I know that making such statements is preposterous. Why can't others? I don't condemn anyone's faith or belief, but I do condemn those that are unwilling to yield in their belief that only they know the answer. Neither do I question his sincerity. But that doesn't take away the fact that people of different faiths or those with a belief, can't experience the very same.

A tenet does not carry much substance. To believe one has to understand, to understand one has to question or all one ends up with is blind faith which amounts to nothing.

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.



[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 08-14-2010).]

T-

I think you're working off a false choice.

Mr. G maintains if a person doesn't accept JC as his Lord/Savior/etc....he is doomed for all time.

You describe that as "forcing you". Meaning you either submit to his wish willingly or you will be compelled to by some other force.

Nonsense. No one can force true faith. Its impossible. A person can act out the part, but no one ever really, truly knows what in someone else's mind.

Another way to say this is have faith in your faith. All three of us find ourselves in a place in our lives where we profess to have some understanding of what role faith plays in our lives. Each one is different from the other two. I can't say if one of us is right, nor can I say if one of us is wrong. Maybe we're ALL right...maybe we're ALL wrong, eh?


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Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 08-12-2010).]

Bill,

"Mr. G maintains if a person doesn't accept JC as his Lord/Savior/etc....he is doomed for all time."

Doesn't this translate as an ultimatum? I know that no one can force a faith upon us but using statements like these can and will come over the wrong way. Had I said that if a person doesn't accept Lord Shiva as their Lord/Savior all hell would've broken loose. I think he is in no position to say these things to anyone. It just isn't right.

"Another way to say this is have faith in your faith. All three of us find ourselves in a place in our lives where we profess to have some understanding of what role faith plays in our lives. Each one is different from the other two. I can't say if one of us is right, nor can I say if one of us is wrong. Maybe we're ALL right...maybe we're ALL wrong, eh?"

That's what I've been saying all the time but apparently it fell on deaf ears. At least you understand.

I don't think it's about being right or wrong, it's about accepting that not all people share the same faith. If one takes the time to study the different faiths, one will notice that they're pretty much all alike. None is better, none is worse. It's not even about that. Whatever faith works for you shouldn't be anyone's problem. Plus culture and upbringing has a lot to do with what will/tends to believe.

Since my son will grow up in a Buddhist environment he'll most likely follow this faith but there's no guarantee he will. That's fine with me for he'll have to find his own path. Sadly, not that many people are as openminded when it comes to religion as those in the Far East. Most kids will adhere to their parents' faith while many just tag along without really belonging. Yet it is a burden to no one for it doesn't harm anyone. So if my son wishes to embrace the Islamic faith, all I can do is respect his decision. If he ends up an atheist, so be it. There really is nothing to it and I don't see why it even should.

I've had a life-after-death experience on December 6, 1969. Were I to have one now, it may turn out to be entirely different. Not that I'm looking forward to it but I am a different person than I was then. In other words, I'm and adult now and I've embraced a culture totally different from the one I was born and grew up in. This may or may not have a different impact if I were to have one now. Only one way to find out.

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.



[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 08-13-2010).]

T-It tests your faith to hear Mr. G. lay out the consequences, in his understanding, of what will happen to you if you don't agree. I think his (Mr. G's.) comments are fair because:

A) We're having a discussion about faith and there's several viewpoints being expressed.

B) Its what his particular expression of faith entails. Witnessing, however uncomfortable for the audience at times, is a long standing component of certain tracts of Western Christianity.

If I said you BOTH were off track and that I REALLY had the answers and that only people who wear blue pants could ever get into heaven, you'd laugh me off. Why? Because there's no meaningful element of people with blue pants getting into heaven. There are tremendous numbers who feel as G does. There's also lots of people who feel the way you do and that I do. Even if we disagree with the belief, we know that there are Millions who do accept that and therefore they earn credibility.

G's beliefs don't disturb me. I don't share them, but I'm fine with it. It seems its really tweaked you Taike, almost on a personal level. I wonder respectfully if maybe you are having some internal struggles with your own faith that this discussion has touched a nerve on? That wouldn't be a bad or a weak thing, just a very human thing. You know, what if Conservative Christians ARE right? And the rest of us are doomed? Its possible, right?

I believe God wants some of us to struggle with this concept of faith. The conversation between our hearts and mind is a long winded, ever changing and very complex one.

I appreciate everyone's comments in this thread.

Might we pivot in a slightly different direction?

Should the Islamic Cultural Ctr. be built a few blocks from Ground Zero in NYC?



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Bill in Dayton

Sorry, Bill, but you have it wrong. I'm not having any struggles with my faith. I just don't make statements like Mr. G does and neither would he like to hear me make them. Actually I don't see how you can even come up with your conclusion.

It's Mr.G who has a problem when someone sees otherwise than he does and so do indeed many others. Fortunately, as a Buddhist, we would never say what he says for it's disrespectful.

I have no problem with what he believes but it just isn't right to tell people "You sir , When you stand before the judgement seat of the Lord you will know that there surely is a God. He and he alone is the maker and creator of all things. I can asure you that He is a God of mercy and grace to all who seek Him and want to know His will. If you don't read the new testament and ask God to reveal the truth to you and just believe things you have heard on some program by people who don't know any more than you do, then how can you say that you are an atheist. You must understand the workings of the devil and the workings of the Lord. Time and space would not allow me to tell of all the things that God has done for me and my family through prayer. I don't really want a comeback from you or anybody else on the zone because all of us have an argument as to why we believe what we do. You should really take a long hard thought at the things you say, remember this , if you are wrong there is an enormous price to pay, The devil is out to steal and to destroy but his fate is sealed. So I say to you all, be wise and at least read the new testament starting in St. John and then going back to Mathew and read it all. Your eternal soul depends on it. Just try God with a pure heart and don't worry what the rest of the world thinks or believes, and if you do that I guarentee you will find a peace and a joy that you've never known before . What is it for a man to gain the whole world and loose his own soul. Don't believe what you hear on discovery or Nat Geo. Ask God with a sincere heart and find out for yourself.Please give Him a shot, you won't regret it. Like you said in your statment( the good guy fighting the bad guy) so who really is the good guy and who is the bad guy. There is good and evil, light and darkness. CHOOSE WISELY>". This is telling all those that don't share his faith that theirs is fake. Had I told him the same but change the Lord to Allah he'd most likely have reacted or even worse than I did.

I don't think I have to explain myself any further since I've come to realize that both of you seem incapable of understanding what I'm saying. What might be the problem? Certainly can't be my command of English. Or is it? Next time I'll post in Dutch, German, French, Chinese, ... have your pick. All fine with me.

I'll let you two take the discussion further in whatever direction you wish to take it. It's useless to keep on making points that keep on being misinterpreted over and over again.

So, in closing, no, I'm not having any struggles with my faith. Yes, Conservative Christians may be right but so may be Muslims, Hindus, Mormons, Catholics, Protestants, Pentacostals. They all maintain that they're right and their faith is the one and only true faith. Buddhism stands out as probably the only one that doesn't make such claims. It is not important who is right, but only who does right.

Hey, at least I get to shack with Chas and one can't ask for better company.

Take care and may all the gods smile on you.

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

"Should the Islamic Cultural Ctr. be built a few blocks from Ground Zero in NYC?"

Why not? Nothing wrong with it. First Amendent or can that be interpreted at will as well?

Islam is not the enemy.

They build churches, shopping malls, and what else not on Native-American burial grounds, don't they? And guess whose voice is ignored as usual? Yeah, right, the Native-American's.

They climb Uluru against the will of the Australian aborigines. It's their most sacred place. Who pays heed? Few. Too much money is being made from tourism so why bother what a few aborigines have to say.

They dig up graves and burial grounds against the will of the descendants. Give it a nice scientific and important sounding name(archeology) so that you're not be confused with a grave robber.

Native-Americans who want museums to return the remains of their ancestors are facing an uphill battle.

Some museums have started to return art pieces to the country of origin but it's a very small number.

Makes me want to climb the Papal Basilica of Saint Peter but I know where I'll end up. But, I'm sure I'll be a hero to many.

Why should one event take precedence over all others?

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

T-

My point was that G's opinions/statements seemed to bother you a lot more than me. That's all. Your English is great...

On one hand you allow, correctly IMO, for a multitude of possibilities when it comes to faith. But when Mr. G. expresses himself as countless others do, who share his beliefs, it seems to really bug you...

There is a certain allure about the passiveness of the Buddhists, for sure...

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Bill in Dayton

I'm good, Bill. No problem with anyone's faith. It takes a lot more to get under my skin.

--------------------------------------------
A brahmin once asked The Blessed One:
"Are you a God?"
"No, brahmin" said The Blessed One.
"Are you a saint?"
"No, brahmin" said The Blessed One.
"Are you a magician?"
"No, brahmin" said The Blessed One.
"What are you then?"
"I am awake."

As I understand it , The Muslim faith is one of peace. IT is the radicals that mess things up. I think they should just preach what they believe and let God be God . I don't see that burning any other faiths Book will achieve anything. Real Christians and people of pure religion and a sincere love for God and His creation don't fly planes into buildings , strapping bombs to themselves, live under comunist rule with child sweatshops killing thousands of people in the name of their God. I think burning the Quran won't change anything.If you live a good clean life , the people around you will know that there is something different about you. I'm not anything in my own self. The bible says that our rightiouness is as filthy rags, that there is none good, so I'm no more than a sinner saved by grace. All I did was confess to God that I was a sinner and needed a savior. It is not forced but free to anyone who wants to believe. All other religions are free as well if you are satisfied with the way it makes you feel inside. I feel forgiven and that is why I am a christian. If I could not tell that a change had not taken place, and I could not feel and detect the presence of the Lord in my life then I too might look elswhere. But that is not the case. I can feel the Lord in my soul every day. So do I want other people to know and feel God working in their lives? Sure I do. but it is who soever will. God don't force Himself on no one. I said I was done with this topic but I felt led to answer you . Have a great day, Bill in Dayton.