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#88952 - 08/09/10 11:05 PM
Re: Good vs. Evil
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Member
Registered: 07/14/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Monroe, Mi. USA
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Originally posted by Taike:
Well, since we all know that we can't control every individual's actions and thoughts, the Church had to "invent" something that would put them in a good light. It's easier to put the blame on someone or something then on oneself. This way you're always the good guy fighting the bad guy. And what perfect excuse to get rid of the unbelievers, the heathens, to colonize, commit genocide, rape and plunder.
Free agency? See above...
And lastly...no church should earn money! Yet, the fastest way to become rich is to start a religion. At least the Native-Americans had(have) it right: a belief is free so how can you charge for it? Why pray in a manmade structure about God's creation when his creation is being systematically destroyed? And my favorite... the white man prays to God, we talk to him.
Taike
You sir , When you stand before the judgement seat of the Lord you will know that there surely is a God. He and he alone is the maker and creator of all things. I can asure you that He is a God of mercy and grace to all who seek Him and want to know His will. If you don't read the new testament and ask God to reveal the truth to you and just believe things you have heard on some program by people who don't know any more than you do, then how can you say that you are an atheist. You must understand the workings of the devil and the workings of the Lord. Time and space would not allow me to tell of all the things that God has done for me and my family through prayer. I don't really want a comeback from you or anybody else on the zone because all of us have an argument as to why we believe what we do. You should really take a long hard thought at the things you say, remember this , if you are wrong there is an enormous price to pay, The devil is out to steal and to destroy but his fate is sealed. So I say to you all, be wise and at least read the new testament starting in St. John and then going back to Mathew and read it all. Your eternal soul depends on it. Just try God with a pure heart and don't worry what the rest of the world thinks or believes, and if you do that I garentee you will find a peace and a joy that you've never known before . What is it for a man to gain the whole world and loose his own soul. Don't believe what you hear on discovery or Nat Geo. Ask God with a sincere heart and find out for yourself.Please give Him a shot, you won't regret it. Like you said in your statment( the good guy fighting the bad guy) so who really is the good guy and who is the bad guy. There is good and evil, light and darkness. CHOOSE WISELY>
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Mr. G ,OASYS , KRONOS ,Jupiter 80 , AUDYA 5, Midas Venice ,Danley Labs sm-60f's ,Danley TH mini subs, QSC KW 122's,118 sub , Senhieser and Heil , Audix VX-10 , TC_Helicon ,ZOOM 9200, Lexicon ,Alesis ,AKG solid tube ,AB international Power Sub3600
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#88953 - 08/09/10 11:17 PM
Re: Good vs. Evil
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Member
Registered: 07/14/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Monroe, Mi. USA
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Originally posted by cgiles: Agree. Smart too. I've yet to meet a low IQ Atheist, but I've met a helluva lot of dumb devoutly religious types (just go to any Palin rally  ).
I think Spiritualism (like religion) is a way of making peace with the things we don't understand (and are unlikely to ever find out in our lifetime). A way to explain or express why we'd rather do 'good' than 'bad', why we have a 'conscience', why we feel good when we do something that we perceive as 'good', when we help someone for no reason at all, when we marvel at the beauty of a sunny day or the vastness of a clear, starry night. We feel spiritual when, while walking alone through the woods, we spot a solitary Ladyslipper, happily blooming away and not caring whether anyone is there to watch it. We feel spiritual when we observe the 'miracle of life' as expressed by the birth of our own children (or the death of our parents or loved ones.
Who hasn't wondered if that's all there is (death), and if we can't accept that, then we need to believe in an afterlife in order to cope. Else, why be 'good'. What is the 'reward' for being 'good' just for the sake of being 'good'. What are the (afterlife) consequences of being 'bad'?
Many of the lessons that organized religion teaches us are not only valuable, but practical, as well. But I believe that they are the crystalization of centuries of human experience. Accomodation, 'live and let live', mutual protection, teritorial defense, the need to reproduce (species survival), etc., etc., are all either instinctive or learned, and refined over time to produce the best chance for survival.
Bill, there is a reason you have questions or doubt. It's what keeps you from being a 'sheep'. Except for the fact that we don't proselytize, I'd say that you'd be a good fit in a Unitarian/Universalist 'church'. There is an easy way to pick out your average Unitarian; If you see a group of people walking along a road, and they come to a fork in the road and one sign says 'Heaven', and the other sign says 'Discussion about Heaven', well.......... (you get the idea ). But despite their healthy skepticism about religious matters, you will usually find them at the forefront of the social issues that continue to plague us as a society. Idealogically, they are very similar to the Ethical Society.
Anyhoo, keep doing what you're doing. In the end, you'll be remembered fondly (our version of an afterlife ). If it turns out that there really are Pearly Gates, then you'll get there too, so you can't lose.
chasHow do count the IQ of an atheist. The beginning of wisdom is to fear God and keep His commandments. That sums up the whole matter. First you gotta believe and be born again. Read St. John CH.3 vs 5-7.
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Mr. G ,OASYS , KRONOS ,Jupiter 80 , AUDYA 5, Midas Venice ,Danley Labs sm-60f's ,Danley TH mini subs, QSC KW 122's,118 sub , Senhieser and Heil , Audix VX-10 , TC_Helicon ,ZOOM 9200, Lexicon ,Alesis ,AKG solid tube ,AB international Power Sub3600
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#88954 - 08/09/10 11:34 PM
Re: Good vs. Evil
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Member
Registered: 07/14/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Monroe, Mi. USA
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Originally posted by cgiles:
I, for one, am very quick to acknowledge the good things that the church has done. I don't believe that the civil rights and liberties that I enjoy today (in this country) would be in place now if not for the church's involvement in the Civil Rights movement. I applaud the church for that; it's the 'Voodoo' part that I have a problem with; that, and the very high position in which it has placed itself in controlling our lives. I'm also not willing to turn a blind eye to the church's failings either; the terror tactics of Islamic extremist, the rampant pedophilia in the Catholic church, the hate speak of the Christian far right. They are all examples of a sound ideology being manipulated to excuse doing harm to others. The Klan (KKK) claims to base their ideology on Christian principles, yet I can't seem to find which of those principles condones the murdering of innocent people (while bringing their small children to watch and participate in the spectacle, thus insuring a new generation of haters).
So Rory, like everything else, the church can be both good and bad. I can accept that. What I can't accept is that it be mandatory. Freedom for all, I say, especially freedom of thought.
chas One thing to remember , its not what other people are doing or what some churches are doing, The church can't save your soul any more than the KKK, it is your own personal relationship with Jesus Christ that has the power to covert a mans heart to the knowledge of salvation.
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Mr. G ,OASYS , KRONOS ,Jupiter 80 , AUDYA 5, Midas Venice ,Danley Labs sm-60f's ,Danley TH mini subs, QSC KW 122's,118 sub , Senhieser and Heil , Audix VX-10 , TC_Helicon ,ZOOM 9200, Lexicon ,Alesis ,AKG solid tube ,AB international Power Sub3600
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#88955 - 08/09/10 11:41 PM
Re: Good vs. Evil
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Member
Registered: 07/14/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Monroe, Mi. USA
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Originally posted by Fran Carango: In the end..an atheist may be the dumbest of all...
Also, the odds are no one dies an atheist...there may be a true glimpse of the true at the end.. 
My thoughts are more like Rory and Bill's view..
And I also believe God has given each of us a free will....and the "bible" should not be taken lightly , while making our decision to apply free will..Well said Fran, I would say that if an atheist were to get into an accident and saw that they were about to die or in a plane going down I would bet the first words out of their mouths would be , OH GOD HELP ME!
_________________________
Mr. G ,OASYS , KRONOS ,Jupiter 80 , AUDYA 5, Midas Venice ,Danley Labs sm-60f's ,Danley TH mini subs, QSC KW 122's,118 sub , Senhieser and Heil , Audix VX-10 , TC_Helicon ,ZOOM 9200, Lexicon ,Alesis ,AKG solid tube ,AB international Power Sub3600
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#88956 - 08/09/10 11:49 PM
Re: Good vs. Evil
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Senior Member
Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 2814
Loc: Xingyi, Guizhou (China)
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Originally posted by Mr. G:
You sir , When you stand before the judgement seat of the Lord you will know that there surely is a God. He and he alone is the maker and creator of all things. I can asure you that He is a God of mercy and grace to all who seek Him and want to know His will. If you don't read the new testament and ask God to reveal the truth to you and just believe things you have heard on some program by people who don't know any more than you do, then how can you say that you are an atheist. You must understand the workings of the devil and the workings of the Lord. Time and space would not allow me to tell of all the things that God has done for me and my family through prayer. I don't really want a comeback from you or anybody else on the zone because all of us have an argument as to why we believe what we do. You should really take a long hard thought at the things you say, remember this , if you are wrong there is an enormous price to pay, The devil is out to steal and to destroy but his fate is sealed. So I say to you all, be wise and at least read the new testament starting in St. John and then going back to Mathew and read it all. Your eternal soul depends on it. Just try God with a pure heart and don't worry what the rest of the world thinks or believes, and if you do that I garentee you will find a peace and a joy that you've never known before . What is it for a man to gain the whole world and loose his own soul. Don't believe what you hear on discovery or Nat Geo. Ask God with a sincere heart and find out for yourself.Please give Him a shot, you won't regret it. Like you said in your statment( the good guy fighting the bad guy) so who really is the good guy and who is the bad guy. There is good and evil, light and darkness. CHOOSE WISELY> Can't help it, just had to laugh. Uh, where did I say that I'm an atheist? You see things your way and I see things my way. Does that mean one is right and the other's wrong? Or are we both right or both wrong? How can you judge when you're judged by something greater than yourself? Is a Buddhist judged by Buddha or ....? Is a Muslim judged by Allah ...? Well, tricky one, this one. Is a Hindu judged by his/her own Karma or ...? You know, all I can say is that if you were told the very same by what you're telling me by a Muslim, Hindu, dare I even say by a Mormon, Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, etc. you'd still be arguing over who's the true believer and which church is the only true one. Believe in whatever you like but don't deny others their belief or the right NOT to believe. Telling someone that he's doomed for not believing what you believe in is just another form of terrorism. So, before you point your accusing finger at Jihad fighers (I'm sure you do), better point one at yourself as well. Terrorism comes in many disguises. In a nutshell, I don't care what you believe in and you shouldn't care what I believe in. Before you judge, judge not lest yea be judged.... Remember the Native-American Holocaust. Remember the Palawa. Remember the Australian Aborigines. Remember the Maori. Remember slavery. Remember...remember...remember... Then judge...
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最猖獗的人权侵犯 者讨论其他国 家的人权局势而忽略本国严重的人权 问题是何等伪善。
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#88957 - 08/09/10 11:54 PM
Re: Good vs. Evil
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Member
Registered: 07/14/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Monroe, Mi. USA
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Originally posted by cgiles:
Well I guess it was inevitable. Sooner or later, an intellectual debate has to come to an end.
So you're saying that if someone (me, in this case) doesn't believe what you believe, they're "dumb". So God gave us 'free will' as long as we don't exercise it, is that the gist of it? Hey, nobody called Rory dumb. Nobody called Russ dumb. No one called Taike dumb. In fact, nobody called ANYBODY dumb........until now.
Sorry Russ, you should have saved your congratulations until after the 'smart' people checked in. But thanks, Fran, you really proved my point. Hey listen, feel free to believe whatever you want, concerning the existence of God, just extend the same courtesy to others. Or do you feel as though it's your 'mission' to save me?
chas
If you really want to know if there is a God , why don't you just humble yourself , forget about trying to prove you are right, get on your knees and ask , if you want to know the truth then you must first seek after it, Just say , GOD , I want to know the truth. God will reveal Himself to all who dillegently seek Him.
_________________________
Mr. G ,OASYS , KRONOS ,Jupiter 80 , AUDYA 5, Midas Venice ,Danley Labs sm-60f's ,Danley TH mini subs, QSC KW 122's,118 sub , Senhieser and Heil , Audix VX-10 , TC_Helicon ,ZOOM 9200, Lexicon ,Alesis ,AKG solid tube ,AB international Power Sub3600
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#88958 - 08/10/10 12:04 AM
Re: Good vs. Evil
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Senior Member
Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 2814
Loc: Xingyi, Guizhou (China)
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Originally posted by Mr. G:
If you really want to know if there is a God , why don't you just humble yourself , forget about trying to prove you are right, get on your knees and ask , if you want to know the truth then you must first seek after it, Just say , GOD , I want to know the truth. God will reveal Himself to all who dillegently seek Him. In all honesty, I don't see anywhere where Chas is trying to prove he's right. On the other hand, I can't say the same about yourself. So why can't Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, etc. claim the very same what you're claiming? What would make you think that what they experience is fake? If you have all the answers, doesn't that make you God? Taike ------------------ Bo pen nyang. [This message has been edited by Taike (edited 08-10-2010).]
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最猖獗的人权侵犯 者讨论其他国 家的人权局势而忽略本国严重的人权 问题是何等伪善。
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#88959 - 08/10/10 12:10 AM
Re: Good vs. Evil
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Member
Registered: 07/14/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Monroe, Mi. USA
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Originally posted by Bill in Dayton:
To the point that Fran made (albeit a little clumsily.)
Death bed conversions are probably common and I wonder if in that moment, will I all of a sudden have a profound change of heart? Will it be out of fear? Out of enlightenment?
I know people often find comfort in their faith when their lives take a painful turn. After my Mom died a few years ago, my younger sister really became a "strong Christian." Which is fine for her. When others get news of a terminal illness or an accident or some other hardship often they'll turn to "God" for strength.
I'm wanting to see the guy that finds out he's just won 30 million on the Super Lotto and immediately announces that Christ has entered his life.
I'm over exaggerating of course, but why don't more people seem to get close to "God" when they're doing great?
The Bible says it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter into Heaven. I would say that if a Christian were to win a vast amount of money that he or she would still serve God, But a non Christian? Probably not unless their health began to fail and they realised that money cant save them, or restore their life.
_________________________
Mr. G ,OASYS , KRONOS ,Jupiter 80 , AUDYA 5, Midas Venice ,Danley Labs sm-60f's ,Danley TH mini subs, QSC KW 122's,118 sub , Senhieser and Heil , Audix VX-10 , TC_Helicon ,ZOOM 9200, Lexicon ,Alesis ,AKG solid tube ,AB international Power Sub3600
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