I know you guys probably think I'm nuts but this is real and still going on until this day for the past 10 years. I could not believe it myself but I went there personally to check it out with a number of other people and we're all were amazed.

Each one of us brought a picture of Jesus and lo and behold, clear oil starts to flow out of them with nobody even came near. Some had oil spots on the eyes. One had little hearts shaped oil droplets - actually each has different oil stains.

Guys, this is a genuine miracles happening before our eyes. And you guys can experience it for yourself. It seems like Jesus is trying to send us a message that He is for real. And that He can create things out of nothing and thus proves that He is God the creator. This is not a one time event, but ongoing and it never fails to happen.

All this happened at a humble woman's little house in Union City, California. It is also mentioned in the local paper San Jose Mercury News over the years.

Stories like these still exist all over the world. It's an old miracle - well known since the middle age when the people were untaught. Such phenomenons gave the church the might to control the people, to make them believing to their own imagination of God!

In reality those phenomenons are created by some physical and chemical effects which are well known by scientists. You can find many discriptions about that in scientific literature.

Another point is: True Believers are knowing that God doesn't need to present you any argument for his existence! Don't search for God's signs anywhere outside! You'll find God deep inside your own hearts! Trust into the power of Creation!!!

------------------
Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

I deeply respect both Lukitoh's faith and Sheriff's scientific explanations.

I only wish we could see miracles happening in the places or people that need them.
Theodore

Sheriff,

There is an explanation for this ??

What physical and chemical effects ??

If so, please let me know. Can you recreate it ? Or are you just being cynical ?

These oil droplets appeared out of thin air and created intelligent patterns such as hearts, or only in the eyes, not random arrangments. Can you explain that ?

I also believe God is inside your hearts. But sometimes, God the creator of the universe suspended the law of physics for a reason. And if we are so proud of our intellect and just treat these miracles as not important, then we are being too careless IMO.

I also witnessed a flat footed man received brand new feet before our very eyes and many other eyewitnesses. We saw the flat foot before and after in plain view. And not just one person but many people received this miracle. And these people are the regulars that go to the services not some new guys that could be impostors. Can you explain this with physical and chemical effects ?

Can we leave religion and politics out? Or they the same thing now?
Smokey

C'mon, a little discussion about religion wouldn't hurt anyone. Don't be so uptight. If you do not want to participate, just don't reply.

Very interesting. I am a Christian. A True Born Again Believer and believe in miracles. And at the same time am somewhat skeptical of these phenomenon. Most unusual phenomenon are produce by demons to disctract and prevent people from focusing in on Jesus. Such as mediums and spiritists. In fact the Bible is clear that we are to stay away from them. The Bible recognizes demonic forces no doubt. But if this oil appears on pictures of Jesus and ONLY Jesus, then I would be inclined to believe God is speaking through these miracles.

However, God has already given us the perfect message, His Son. He came here in human form and taught. He was innocent and yet was crucified and killed. Was buried an locked away in a tomb and on the third day arose from the dead. This is well documented history. What else do we need? If mankind is too prideful to believe that, why would they believe in oil spots forming on pictures? Only those with ears hear. He speaks to them and they known Him by His voice.


Well, that's my thoughts.
Bob
<><

No, I'm not cynical! I'm a true Believer, that's all!

It's written in the bible that God is not in need of any evidence to show us his almightiness. And like Bob said if there's someone who doesn't believe in God then he also wouldn't believe in God in front of oil in heart form. And more...I believe into the allmightiness of God but I know that oil on Jesus figurines are only physical effects.

And no, I can't really explain that phenomenon but I've read a lot about those phenomenons. So, I know that there's always a scientific explanation. And the ability of scientific experiences is one of the Lord's many gifts...

I know that Jesus wasn't God's son only!!! God is THE Creator! He created ALL with only ONE act and then he turned into his Creation! He was the energy which became material reality (this progress still keeps on).
Now, a part of God is in every little atom, electron, photon, particle, and so on...so, finally God is in us all!!!
Listen to the voice in your heart and you'll hear the voice of our Lord!!!

Oh, and by the way, our Lord is the same creature than Allah, Manitou, Elochim, and so on...

[This message has been edited by Sheriff (edited 07-15-2005).]

The oil only appears on Jesus pictures at specific spots like the eyes, wounds, etc. It is intelligently arranged. Friends, these cannot be explained scientifically. It's simply a miracle - law of physics is suspended at this one house.

I don't think it's the work of the devil as it clearly glorifies God. Why would the devil glorify God and attracted people to God ? The owner of the house did not ask for donation. She only mentioned that the most important thing is not the miracle but that Jesus wants all of us to get to heaven. And that these miracles are there to show us that God is in control of the law of physics, not the other way around. Some people need this to strengthen their faith. In fact majority of people(esp non-believers) probably will really question themselves after seeing this.

Sheriff & Bob: what you are saying is good. You both have strong faith and I am sure God is very pleased with that. Even the greatest miracles probably would not strengthen your faith anymore as it's probably very strong already. But I think both of you will agree that there are many miracles written in the bible, right ? God is not against miracles(He used them a lot in fact), so why should we ? In fact, Jesus probably performed many miracles every single day including His disciples. In fact in the gospel of Mark, Jesus did say that those who truly believe in Him will have signs and wonders following them. God is using all these miracles to attract people or to achieve some specific objectives. If not, then why did God perform those miracles ? The problem is that many of the "established" church goers or so-called "believers" no longer have "signs and wonders" following them. I wonder why ? Have these people lost their ways perhaps ? Or is the "signs and wonders" applies to group of people. Myself personally, I have many "signs and wonders" in my personal life but not as stunning as this "oil miracle". I believe the so-called "signs and wonders" are events that happened by suspension of the natural laws that only God can perform. Not by scientific tricks, etc.

Many "signs and wonders" have turned people to Christ whereas before they were not interested. I heard numerous testimonies about it. But the most important thing is what happens after you have believed. The believer must learn how to live their lives pleasing to God and seek the "real" treasure in heaven by doing God's will in their lives.

Your not reading weekly world news are you? Haha anyways, if this occurance happened several times id like to see some real proof! Words mean nothing to me in todays liberal media. You hear every day phenomenons that your hear about but never see.

PHil

I have to agree with Phil.
However despite the logical and all mighty analyzing brain I also have a heart and soul that have always believed in god.
On one hand I'd rather look for evidence and yet on another I'd rather just believe in majic and enjoy it.


-ED-

[This message has been edited by 3351 (edited 07-17-2005).]

Phil and Ed,

This is not from News, I experienced it myself with numerous other witnesses. In fact thousands (pastors, bishops, etc) in the know visitted this place.

If you're in the Bay Area or planning to, be sure to email me way ahead of time so I can arrange it with the owner of the house. We can go together and you can see it for yourself. It has happened for the last 10 years and nobody came home disappointed. Even the skeptical and the smartest guy after seeing this phenomena left the small house believing or scratching their head.

And it is not just miracle oil, many other stunning miracles have taken place in this house but none compared to the miracle oil that flowed until this day.

Well,
Even though my heart might believe my eyes ; my brain will still wonder and wonder about the usual "How in the world they did that one?".
As I kind of hinted as humans we all struggle between desire to believe in miracles and ability to explain those miracles by various models that modern science proposes.
Given the fact that technology can only do so much, science can only explain so much as well as go only so far with proposed formulas and intelligent guesses... Miracles probably exist somewhere within the relm of what science cannot explain yet.

I do not wish to be a harbinger of Doom, particularly bearing in mind that i am a beneficiary of "faith healing" (by my grandfather); however if one looks at the history of faith, and particularly secular religions and their so-called "causes", there can be no greater (humanistic) argument against organised belief: analyse the amount of bloodshed perpetuated in "his" name between various beliefs (still on-going), that the insistence that there is only 1 God (jehovah/allah/Eric Bloggs (for you Bloggists out there) and the followers of such beliefs devoting themsleves to the annihation of any opponent who dares indicate a contrary view, for it's validity. These sanctioned actions (generally politically motivated- e.g. the introduction of Orhdox Christianity to Russia - a mechanism invited in order to control the people) can surely only be calculated as i)at the very least small-minded, ii) moderately self-supporting (usually only benefitting those in power) or iii)at the worst, worthy of their own appearance at the International Court at the Hague for crimes against Humanity. . . . (of course there are many subtle variations in between, so few of them actually seeking any kind of Veriable Truth . . . . )

Sorry to be so controversial but this is surely a forum about Music and it's technology, rather than Miracles, Beliefs, Cabbages (if that takes your fancy) or whatever else.

I recognise that this forum is American-run and also recognise that the ethos of the Home country is at an understandble religous and cultural Crossrads, but come on guys and gals, lets talk music, not love or hate, nor religion or politics, CAP or WTO, lets keep it to Korg, Yamha, Roland,Soltan Kurzweil Gem etc and all the other title brands that we have elected to participate in, rather than miracles and ideology and other such stuff ( although A further discussion on the merits of the G70 may well comstrue iii) above!

Regards

If you really want to talk arranger such as G70, go to the General Arranger section. This is the BAR which I think you can just talk about anything you want to your fellow musicians, let out steam, vent, whatever. I think the real requirement is that you have to be a REAL musician otherwise I won't talk to you (wasting my time)....just kidding there.

About your point on those violence committed on behalf of religion: well, lets say Jesus definitely did not teach those things. He asked us to love our enemies instead. Even when He was about to be captured, He stopped His disciples from committing violence and even healed His captor's injury. As is sometimes happened, people misunderstood/misinterpret these things. But the fact is there are some kind of STRONG proven facts that God does exist. And I suspect those people that says "there's got to be scientific explanations" will probably keep saying those things even when they are boiling away in hell for eternity.

Hey if you guys insist on bringing Jesus into this bar,buy him a beer, and say a prayer asking for 76 keys on a ty II...... .........Pose

Naaah....I will probably just get Him a good quality bottled water. Jesus probably turned the water into a great wine for all of us to share.

And He could probably turned our lowly arrangers to TYROS 7 if He is in the mood.

BTW if Jesus can make those oil flow out of nothing, I BET He can do it !

you have to wonder about the choice of miracles cure disease? stop war? end bigotry and hatred? Cure hunger or poverty?..... Nope oil on a picture, Virgin Mary's face in a concrete bridge abutment now those my friends are miracles to make a believer out of anyone.
maybe this miracle is the devils work to distract us.


[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 07-19-2005).]

Yes Han, you are correct. Nothing is off topic here in The Bar. As long as people are respectful towards eachother I don't mind what you all talk about. That is the whole point of this particular forum.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 07-18-2005).]

Thanks, Nigel for clearing that up. Yes, respecting each other is important.

Mike: I doubt that the devil was out to discredit Jesus if that is what you mean. Jesus and the devil seemed to be against each other very deeply with no consolation in sight. Why would the devil glorifying Jesus by performing those miracles on behalf of Jesus ? After seeing these miracles, many people who have not been seeking God now seems to be doing exactly that. That is a big setback for the devil. And the owner of the house did not accept donations and did not really care if you go to churches other than hers as long as the church believe in Jesus.

Sometimes God does something funky in our mind I think. Like, why would God create certain pesky insects. But He did it anyway maybe for certain obscure purpose that we miss.

I really agree with that. If God/Jesus, or who/whatever has the power to do all this great stuff why doesnt he do that instead of making a picture all oily? Id really like to see this painting and be able to pick it up and look at it. Do you think its just a hoax along with so many other things? like theres a thing of oil behind the picture that pumps it out? I dunno, it is interesting, but very farfetched and weird.

Phil

Phil: there is no trick that I can see. I have a masters degree in technical field and I would most likely be able to detect if there is foul play. Just put a picture of Jesus and the oil would start to appear at specific places. This is not a hoax but a genuine real miracle. There is more to this world than physics and chemistry. And as I mentioned, I have seen a person receiving new feet before numerous witnesses.

It is against the Law of Concervation of matter. You can put the picture of Jesus in a sealed container and the oil would appear on the picture.

Han, and how do we know what a picture of Jesus really looks like?

That's a great point, Fran!

The famoused picture of Jesus was made by Michel Angelo who lived about 400 years ago. It's well known that he made a picture of himself. So, Jesus looks like Michel Angelo since 400 years...*SSS*

Some other points are:
1. Are the people in this house extremely evil, or why does the oil appear in this house only?
2. What kind of a God should it be that sends his son to teach the humans and then let them killed by humans? So, the roman imperium was stronger than God?
I don't believe that Jesus was really the son of the Creator. He was a normal human with a high level of perception. Someone like a buddha! You all can reach this level if you really live in humbleness!
3. Why does it started 10 years ago? We all know that the problems in our world started much earlier. I knew it as a small child that the world will die in agony in the near future if we do not change us (especially the big bosses!). So, am I a son of our God because I knew it earlier than the oil coming out of a picture? Nope, I'm not!

Well, the point is: Let a team of scientists into that house and explore the secret and in a few months or years you'll have an exact answer to that phenomenon.
Or you can torment the owner of the picture until he reveals his secret for you...

I guess it's something like it was on other madonna's figurines and so on. I remember on an explanation about that phenomenon. I think it was the fact of two different kind of woods that was used for the figurine. So, a special air condition could cause the madonna figurine to cry out some tears from its eyes. Wow, what a phenomenon...

Or do you remember on candles which lightend up by no fire...whoooo, how magically...
I will never understand why some people are using such cheap tricks to catch the souls of putative unbelievers. If I don't visit a church then this won't mind that I'm an unbeliever.
I don't need an argument for God's existence because I can see it every second in my life. Where can I see it? Everywhere around!!!
The universe is a miracle.
Life is a miracle.
Birth and death are miracles.
Music is a miracle.
Colours are a miracle.
Every atom is a miracle.
All what we're doing with those miracles are also miracles.

Oh, and by the way, God didn't banish us out from the paradies. The truth is: we're still living in the paradies but we're going to distruct it totally...

There's always a scientific explanation for all phenomenons you can see. We've got the gift of experiencing - let's try to explain those phenomenons!!!

Fran: I guess it was passed on from generations. I know that He is a Jew from reading the Bible. Well, do you know what Jesus looked like when He was on earth, Fran ? I know that if the picture of Jesus that we carried received a miracle, I bet that it was "approved" by Jesus. If you know what I mean.

Sheriff:
1. I don't see any evilness in the owner of the house. Like I mentioned, the owner did not ask for money and actually encouraged us from different churches to continue with our beliefs and hope that this miracle we saw will strengthen our beliefs that God is not just words but has real power. Why in the house only ? Simple, I think that's because God chose it. Like God chose the color a certain frog to be green. Maybe the owner of the house was faithful and God rewards it.

2. The Romans were not stronger than God. It was all a plan of God to let His son be killed for the forgiveness of our sins. Without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness and we're all bound to hell. It may sound silly to some but that's the way God chose to do it. Take it or leave it. That is the main message of Christianity. It was foretold way before it actually happened-many hundreds of years before by the prophets (Isiah, etc).

3. The oil coming out of picture is a tiny miracle to God. Like you mentioned God did all the miracles before by creating the universe and its content. He created the laws of natures. But He demonstrated that He is the boss by suspending the law of nature at His own choosing. It was an "extraordinary" miracles that we saw. The law of natures that we normally see were ordinary ancient miracles.

About the paradise you described: is it your truth or the REAL truth ? Acording to the Bible, this earth and this universe will pass away and a new earth and a new heavens will be created in its place. And there will be no sufferrings for those who believe.

Now, if you or somebody can describe those oil miracles and recreate it, I think you will win the Nobel prize of the millenia. If you tell this to Einstein and ask him to explain it, I bet He would say it's not possible in the nature realm without divine intervention of the Creator.

Well, maybe the man in the house is really a very brave heart who doesn't know anything about chemical things. But there are many stories in the bible which are unlogical. Sometimes I think that the bible discribes different Gods! That's an evidence for the real source of those stories - different humans who wanted to dominate their folks.
Moses was a leader, Abraham was a leader, Isaac was a leader, Adam was the first leader (but he didn't have to say much!). Leaders have the problem to lead their folk. So, they often told about a God which is stronger then themself.
If I would tell you "Hey, do what I tell you!", then you would say "Do it for your own!". But if I would be able to make you clear that God did choose me to lead you then you would probably believe my words?
I'm still thinking that we can hear the Lord's voice inside our own heart. And that voice tells me "Don't believe such magic phenomenons!"

I'm still thinking about the reason why God should send signs to any human?! We are not important enough to be loved by God!!! Or, maybe...


Oh, maybe it's only MY truth. I'm sorry for it...
I saw the earth out of the space lab (thanx TV!). I saw it only 5 minutes but I realized right in that moment that our earth IS our paradies. Every place outside is very deadly...


Yes, Albert Einstein was also a believer. He was the man who told us "God doesn't dice!"

I think now it's our turn to be a God. He created us like an image of himself. So, we have the power of our God. Not you, not me, not he/she/it, but we all together...
God is our father we are his children!!! This could be a reason why he is so much interested to keep us alive...

I strongly believe that it's absolutely important to understand the Creation of our Lord because we'll have to keep the Creation alive. If we're growing older then we won't be children any longer. I think we will have to Create the next universe but before that we all will have to think as one person!!!

And another point is there are E.T.s anywhere out there. I strongly believe that they will have an absolutely different name and imagination of their God. We will have to make peace with them and also think as one person! So, we will have to live a long way before we are the next God...

Okay, now I drifted a little bit away from the mystery oil...

[This message has been edited by Sheriff (edited 07-21-2005).]

Sheriff:

Well, the owner of the house (the husband) is an accomplished engineer. He is a smart guy. I bet he knows about chemical effects than most ordinary people.

Now if you tell me that God told you certain things. That is great and if it concurs with the other things that God said in the past (the Bible) then that would be credible. If it's totally new then usually God gave you signs and wonders to authenticate His authority on you. Since God created miracles, it's easy for Him to do that. Does that make sense ?

Magical phenomenon is the realm of God or at least spiritual realm. Because we cannot duplicate it by science. And if you do not believe in it then you probably do not believe that this world was created by magical miracles of God. I think a person who believes in the existence of God should logically believe that God can perform miracles that is extraordinary even today. After all, He is God. Does that make sense ?

About ET's: I have no comment. So what if there is ET's. It will be good I think. And I bet God can touch their lives as well. So far, I don't think there is concrete evidence for it. Not this miracle oil is for real, you can experience it yourself. As I mentioned there are other miracles that God do on earth such as giving a new set of eyes to a blind person, or a new set of feet. Explain that with chemical effects !!!!!!!!!

Okay, okay!

I can't explain the phenomenon. One possibility for the form of a heart could be the surface tension of the liquid oil in order to the surface form of the picture. But how could I be able to explain it without seeing it and without any deeper knowledge about chemical or physical things?

I could explain you some frequency effects or maybe some electrical or digital effects but that's all.

The way you believe is your personally choice. Each human has its own sight for the world and so, each human has its own interpretation of believing. By the way, that's also a wunderful miracle...

As long as they are peaceful to another it's really a wunderful gift!

God is well, like a 3D entity in a 2D world. We are trapped by 2 dimensions really. Time and Space. Think of it as a 2d picture, height and width. Everyone on this plane can see eachother and can figure out and understand nearly everything that goes on, on the plane. We're really getting there, someday we'll explain all that occurs on this plane. But God created time and space and therefore He is not trapped by His creation. He can easily interact with this plane. If He touches it, His fingertips will come in contact with it. Lets say He simple places 5 fingertips on it. We who can see all in this plane will see God in five places at once but never the complete Glory of God.

So while we carefully and intellectually figure things out and become proud of ourselves, let's remember this:
the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

Be blessed my musical brothers and sisters.... by the way, if you are a gifted musician... it's a gift! Let's not sit around wondering why God does something that doesn't directly effect us, let's think about what God has done that has a direct effect on us. The gift of musical ability being one. What will you do with your gift?

Bob
<><

[This message has been edited by RW (edited 07-22-2005).]

Sheriff: the heart shaped oil pattern is actually consisted of tiny droplets that formed the outline of the heart. And it is placed right on the heart of Jesus in the picture showing Him hosting the Last Supper.
Actually the patterns are different for each picture of Jesus. The patterns are intelligent and artistic. It is not random in any way. There is no way you can explain this scientifically. It is a genuine miracle IMO. Forget trying to explain it, nobody can. We are entering spiritual realm. Sheriff, this is the mark of a real "superbeing" that could very well be the REAL GOD that is glorifying Jesus by showing off these miracles. The Jesus that these people worshipped is a powerful spiritual being who has the power of the universe in the palm of His hands. I already saw several of His miracles and convinced that it is the work of the Creator. There are other things than physical universe.

Bob: I agree with you there. Our intellect is nothing compared to God. I am serving in the music ministry and still learning everyday to use this gift for our brothers and sisters to encourage them to grow in their faith and intimacy with God. Now I have decent chops and compositional skills but still learning from the experts everyday.

On the other side, God's existence began right in that moment when the first human asked himself "Why am I here? What's the sense of life? Who made all this possible?"

He (or she) noticed that there was no answer for all at first. Then he (or she) made a big mistake thinking that there must be one who have the answer. What kind of logic is that? If I'm the first human on earth then there's nobody else but me. So, nobody else have the answer!!!

God is only a creation of our imagination. We created God as a virtual life form who stands for all that we don't understand. This gave us hope. So, we created a Creator who has created us. Now, nobody really knows who was the first creature - God or the humans!!!
Well, do you know what I mean? Do you know what was the first being - the hen or the egg?

Gods have no might without any believers and believers have no hope without any Gods. It's a kind of symbiotic relationship between Gods and believers. But right in that moment when you'll understand this fact God will disappear in a puff of pink logic smoke...

Something like that was written in Douglas Adam's Book "Hitch-hiking through the Galaxy" (read the part with the babel-fish!). I can't really understand why a God do such un-logically things like creating humans with the ability to make wars and then sending a son who tell us to not make wars. Why didn't he rescue his son for the cross? What a bad father!!!

Our God isn't only the Creator - he's also the destructor! He's the order like he's the chaos! He's life and death! He's love and hate!

Sorry, but I have much more trust into my parents than into such a multiple creature. Didn't he teach us to find our right way? So, here I'm rocking... ...for our Lord!!!

By the way, I hope my english is much better now then three months ago! Thank you, for talking with me!!!

Sheriff, I hope and pray that you will find the REAL truth. But I know this: Christianity is not about words or concepts but about the power of God. If that God is real then He is more than words or concepts but mighty and powerful as the universe He created !! And He would not be ashamed to use it to save those who will believe in Him.

BTW, your English is very good. What nationality are you ?

i don,t know how to paragraph so bear with me,,,there are around 6 or 7 billion of us living on this world,each of us unique,thinking that i am special because there is only one of me (our soul),when we talk to friends that we have,t seen for 40 years and they talk about personal things about us and our memories return,then we realise that they,the same as us are unique.we are born into this world and we have a soul, we were born with it ,but if i ask you how old were you, that you can remember back to, maybe a lot of people will say i can remember when i was 3 or 2 years old,but you can,t remember before then .why not?you didn,t just become 2 years old and got a soul.There are many religions in this world christian,muslim budhist hindi confuscionism etc,it depends on where you were born guides the religion you will follow,can they all be right? ,i doubt it,they all contain some truth,if the bible is the correct source to find god then the church and bible should say the same thing,look at the roman catholic church in one of the commandments it says NOT to have graven images and yet the catholic church,s are full of them,look at the rest of christianity,there are so many breakaways,they can,t all be right,Christ even had a go at the pharises by saying to them what they teach to others to do they don,t do themselves,hypocrits,During the world wars,the same religions in england and germany were blessing the weapons that were to be used against their enemies,that does not make sense,God says its wrong to murder,and yet God blessed the israelites to kill their enemies to victories,ie, its ok to kill but not to murder,do i believe in God?i am trying to,but its not easy to understand a lot of things that the bible says,i know the bible was put into latin AD so that the common people could not read it,and many people were killed because they translated it into english,we are born we live and we die,and what we do while alive is important,the problem is we NEED TO KNOW WHAT IS THE TRUTH,mike

Nardoni,
I was meaning to ask you about that.
Your posts don't have any paragraphs, why is that?
I do not mean to be insulting, mind you.
Theodore

hi trident,i didn,t know how to paragraph,since then i have found out(press enter key),mike

Mike,
You have a few legitimate questions, that perhaps on some level I can address. Yes the Bible says Thou shalt not kill. Then later on in the Bible God commands the Israelites to take the land that God has already given them. And at times to actually kill. IN fact there have been times God has commanded his choosen people to kill many of their own. Odd?
Read Exodus Chapter 32. It's a very intriging story that sums up humanity to a great degree and this seemingly contridiction. God has already delievered the peopl. He is there God and Redeemer. But what happens to these people? The wish not to recognize God because a man is late. Not a wise choice. Application number 1, because of what man has done, they ignore God. Don't let this happen to you. Then when Moses confronts them (Aaron specifically) he (Aaron ) acts like he's innocent and suprised. His actual answer is "Thye gave me the gold, I threw it in the fire and out came this calf!". Pretty lame don't you think?

But the story doesn't stop there, Moses actually asked them all "Whoever is for the Lord, come to me". Well many didn't come to him. They were subsequently killed. About 3,000 actually,

So what then? Seems to contradict? Not really. These people were delivered by God. They all witnessed greaty mircales and yet chose to ignore God. Then when actually asked to join the Lord, they declined. Seem to me their blood was on their own head.

This is like the story of mankind and God. Man has been redeemed (through the work of Christ on the cross), yet they ignore it. Then when given the gospel, they ignore that too. God's wrath then remains on them. God the Creator gives and takes away. It's that simple. We are not to play God. We are not to kill. It should not be in our hearts to kill. And that is the heart of the matter actually. God see the heart of all men. Jesus even said that anyone who holds hatred in the heart for another is guilty of murder. (Matthew 5:21-22).

When God redeemee the Israelites from the Egyptians, he was accomplishing two things. 1) redeeming His people and 2) judging those who reject Him. The same thing happend when the Israelites were winnign battles to conquer the Promosed Land. These people that were dying in war were actually being judged by God for their evil ways.
But we as humans are not to take this step ourselves.

I agree with some things you stated and about the "church" this is why I have become a protestant. I was once Catholic and was totally confused byt all their heavy laws and history that seemed to conflict with the Bible.

Anyway, I have to run now. I will tell you the truth flat out, Jesus Christ is the truth and the way. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus. Seek out Christ with all your heart my friend. You will find salvation and answers.

Peace
Bob
<><

PS I rushed this post, sorry for any typos.

[This message has been edited by RW (edited 07-26-2005).]

thanks for your reply bob,i noticed the fish at the end,mike

Mike: I meant to reply to you about it but after writing a long reply, it got deleted somehow. I agree with Bob basically. Another example is when Abraham had to offer his only son Isaac by God's instruction. In today's world that is an instruction to commit a 1st degree murder !!! But we are talking about the ancient times when God was doing this along with other instructions to make war to conquer lands for the Israelites. Buy one must remember the huge miracles that God did in the plain sight of multitudes such as the pillars of fire and the parting of the Red sea, the manna breads falling from heaven, etc, etc. There was no doubt in anybody's minds that God is at work and they had to obey it. It was not a delusionals imagination of a particular individual. It was plain to everyone that it was God. That is why they could carry out those seemingly violent actions. So, in short it was not a crime because they were obeying God.

But today after Jesus arrived after being foretold by prophets of the old days is fortunately a different time. A time of grace, forgiveness and non-violence as Jesus showed for an example of how we should live. If there is anyone who wants to repeat the acts of Abraham today would contradict with Jesus Christ teachings and that clearly cannot be Christianity.

As for the statues/graven image, I think it is pretty clear that God forbid anyone to worship things other than God. I think you can have paintings/artworks depicting Jesus, etc but you are not allowed to worship it. As long as it is not worshipped, then it is just an art object.

Not sure if this clears up your q's or not ?

thanks for your reply lukitoh,don,t get me wrong i am NOT anti christian,i just feel that if the word of GOD is true, then it cannot be false,so it must all be true.
Before the 10 commandments were made aware to the people,the people would not be aware of breaking the law because there was NO written law, only conscience, and awareness of breaking the law made them feel bad.(if you tell a child not to touch a hot stove because he will burn himself, and he does, then he burns his fingers and the pain tells him not to do that again, and to trust his parents)
the christian breakaways from catholics,,whether it,s methodist,anglican pentecostals,etc,etc,they all disagree ,why ,same bible same god?,some only accept the new testament.
GOD made the 10 commandments,and stating that thou shall not kill,should apply to GOD also,and to me it,s wrong for GOD to tell the israelites to kill their enemies and then say ,do not kill.(who am i to judge)They say who are you to question god,just have faith.if you kill someone during wartime then you are classed as a hero ,but if you kill someone during peacetime then you are a murderer ,same crime.(I believe that churches and governments many years ago have made changes to the bible to give them more control of the people,and that is probably the reason i sometimes find it difficult) ,because you need the full truth and trust to be able to have faith ,mike

Warning, die-hard religious types, please refrain from reading this. You will probably not like it.


In my opinion, faith and religion are like a screwdriver and an aeroplane, completely different things. The first is a pure thing, comes from inside everyone and differs from person to person, and the second is a well prepared, organized, time tested and proven method of making people obey the will, motives or faith of some OTHER persons.

If i fell down some stairs, a christian may feel his duty to lift me up and care if I am alright, a muslim may do the exact same thing. But their God is quite different, because someone thought so. I respect God's creations, and maybe deep down i think he exists. It's his so called "representatives" that I don't like.

For me, faithful people are caring equally for themselves and others, pray to whatever higher entity they like, and seek no harm. Abortion clinic bombers (so called christians) think they have more faith than the people they accuse as murderers of the unborn. Same for the guys who throw rocks to a poor woman who is pregnant after being raped against her will. If I could, I would happily push the button to eradicate both categories, no remorse.

The Bible is actually a compilation of older stories, "modernized" and adapted to fit the trends of the era it was written. How the world came to exist, resurrection matters, battles between good and evil and many other things documented in the Bible, were elements of other religions well before Jesus came to earth and Christianity was born. Maybe in 3000 years from now, some other religion will have its place, and people will laugh about then "ancient" beliefs about someone who was reportedly born by a virgin, as people today don't really think Osiris or Poseidon existed.

If there is a God, we must be prepared to call him with many names, and NOT attach adjectives like "real", "good", "right", "true" and so on. God, Allah, Zeus etc are all the same thing, they are just names, describing, each culture's and era's version of a higher entity. Scots have whiskey, Americans have bourbon. They both can get you drunk easily, they look very similar, and can make an ugly woman prettier than the best plactic surgeon can. Yet they have different names and flavors.

I always wondered why is the church here in Greece called an "orthodox christian church" (orthodox in old Greek means something along the lines of "the right belief"). Other christian religions feel the same, so why are we the right one? Who decides it? Answer is nobody, we just happened to have a quarrel with the western side of our church some centuries ago, probably for financial or power control matters, so we decided to detach and call ourselves "right". The same people fought each other to decide if we should have icons in churches or not...look around you if you happen to visit a Greek church and guess who won that battle.

Last, for sure Jesus did not have an angelic WHITE face, sporting well groomed and somewhat curly shoulder length hair, as depicted in Western icons. He probably looked more like the Byzantine icons depict him, dark skin, dark long hair.

Lukitoh, I think you are a very good person and I sincerely respect your faith, and your commitment to it, but not your religion, or anyone's in particular. And no matter whatever fanciful shapes the oil takes, I would better like a cure for cancer happening, or wars stopping, in any shape. Or a Tyros on my doorstep

Sorry for the rant,
Theodore

PS, Sheriff, you English is definitely getting better and better. In the beginning, months ago, it felt a little like you were writing in German and then using a translator like Babelfish, I don't have that feeling now. Keep up the good work!

[This message has been edited by trident (edited 07-26-2005).]

the church is the richest organisation in the world.There are bound to be many stories told that don,t make sense,i will tell you of one.In southern ireland many years ago there was a large family of many children,every week the parents took their children to church without fail,and every week they put some money into the collection plate.One day after many years of going to church the husband was killed in an accident,the mother who was penniless approached the priest for help to feed her children,the priest told her to pray.
ordinary people like you and me would help others,after all, look at the millions of pounds and dollars given annually to help others,and these are strangers,friends are even closer and you help,either of yourself or monetary or both,the people who should help you (religious leaders priests etc,)(not all) just give you words of comfort.Look at the times when the church needs a new roof,organ or seating etc, they ask the congregation to help raising funds by doing charity walks, bring and buy, cake baking, tombola (gambling). you see what i mean it works only one way.theirs.again i say i am not anti christian,just disillusioned and want to know the truth,mike

Mike: I say don't worry about those others that do not impress you by not helping their fellow brothers. The Bible teach us if we only say "bless you and go on your way" without trying to offer REAL help, that is not helping at all - empty words. I say, they are not sincere or lack of good teachings. Just don't worry about them instead of judging them, etc.

The TRUTH is what you looking for right ? The Bible clearly shows that God show that He is the REAL TRUE god by performing many miracles. And He still does even today. A person cannot manufacture a brand new feet or a brand new eyes in the blink of an eye - that is the work of a REAL God. Or make an oil flow out of nothing. Does that make sense ? There is soooo many examples in the Bible about this. Mike, if you have not seen these things, maybe I can hook you up with the right group.

lukitoh,you stated,QUOTE,
As for the statues/graven image, I think it is pretty clear that God forbid anyone to worship things other than God. I think you can have paintings/artworks depicting Jesus, etc but you are not allowed to worship it. As long as it is not worshipped, then it is just an art object.UNQUOTE,,,,,,,if you go into the catholic church you will see people lighting candles and kneeling in front of these statues and praying,whether it,s mary jesus or one of the saints,(exodus 20,4&5 says you must never worship OR BOW DOWN,,remember Daniel and co ? they refused to bow down to the kings statue and was thrown into the fire and the lions den,and that was because they was told in EXODUS 20.3.do not worship any other gods but me,(they wouldn,t dare do this nowadays)i tend to believing in GOD,i had a very strange exciting experience a little over 5 years ago,which i won,t disclose here,maybe i will email you,i do not like to hurt other peoples feelings,but what i have stated above is how i see it,mike

Well, I think God's words (Bible) is pretty clear about the statues, etc. I do not wish to condemn anyone else. But I personally would not worship or bow down before any statues or pictures and consider them as mystical things nor would I recommend anyone else to do so.

But the most important thing is that you personally believe that Jesus is the first and foremost the savior for your sins. And you should join a group that has similar convictions. Also now is the time of the Holy Spirit and it is important that the group you joined is full of the Holy Spirit. This is the key to love, victories, great fulfillment and joy to name a few in our lives. Many people missed this critical and important fact for some strange reason and got lost in all the "other" things in the Bible which are important nevertheless but pale in comparison.

Hello, I'm back from gigging and the following resurrection phase...
Thank you, Shboom!!!


I'm a Frankfurter! I'm living in the heart of Germany! The Germans won over the Roman Empire only to get their unliked christian religion...*LOL*
And thanks for your well wishes, lukitoh!
I think I found my sense of life and so I'm going that way. I've reached my aim...

BTW: What is the difference between truth and reality? (it's only a rhetorical question)


Thank you for your compliment, Theodore! Well, I'll do my very best to learn more and more American/English. And, yes, the babelfish was caused by my own translation...
Unfortunality I still need a dictionary and one hour per posting...*aaargh*

[This message has been edited by Sheriff (edited 07-29-2005).]

Sheriff: I sure hope you will reconsider Christianity. Well, IF we are wrong in our choice, the eternal consequence can be very disastrous.

You asked truth vs. reality: my logic tells me that there has to be some verifiable facts IMO. Otherwise, all you have could very well be imaginary concepts. What I mean is if we worship the TRUE "creator" then that creator must be able to demonstrate creative abilities. For example, creating brand new feet/body parts instantly, miraculous events such as water flowing out of a solid rock without any holes, walking on water,creating oil out of nothing, etc.

Don't you think so ?

Did anyone happen to catch The Late Show a few weeks ago, with the "items we found on ebay" segment.
Some idiot was trying to sell an autographed picture of Jesus Christ.
What's worse....some other idiot bought it!!!
Bartender.....another 'round..



------------------
...shboom

Why? And for what? What's a Creator winning if he's getting our souls? Or what is he loosing if he's not getting our souls? What is the whole mankind worth for a God?

And what will change if we believe to a God? We'll still have to eat, to sleep, to breed and to expire... ...nothing will really change but your viewing. The reality keeps clear but the truth will change from sight to sight. That's only my humble opinion!

Nevertheless, oil flowing out of nothing is a nice phenomenon. Also David Copperfield's walk through the Chinese Wall was a nice phenomenon...*SSS*

Hey, even the today's weather here in Frankfurt was a nice phenomenon because we had a climatic effect like you know it from the rain forest - humid air and raining trees. Can you read these signs of God/Nature/Allah/Manitou/Jehova/Shiva? The whole world is crying but who is reacting?

Cheers!

Sheriff/others: There is a very SERIOUS consequence IF Christianity is for real. Christianity tells us that those that rejected Christ is bound to eternal hell. That is a pretty serious thing, right ? Other religions may have something similar but of course totally different routes.

According to Christinity, the creator loves us. That is why David (a famous character) also asked "Who am I that you loved me". It is because of you and me that the creator sent His son (a part of Himself) to endure sufferrings so we can be together with the creator once again. It is a great love story that the creator is making.

Now, David Copperfield is an illusionist. I think that is what he claimed if not mistaken. A true miracle is not an illusion but a reality. What part of a miracle is an illusion when someone receives a brand new feet/eyes instantly ? Not just one person but many of them.

The weather you see in Frankfurt is not an extraordinary event. It is a repeatable common event. A miracle is done when God wishes it to happen and interrupts the laws of nature. When He is done with it, the law of nature goes back to normal as it was before. Does that make sense ?

It is done to make a skeptical person understand that there is someone (God) who is in control of the universe.

Nope, not in my opinion. Hey, if I were a God who created a universe with fixed physical laws. A world that is absolutely perfect which is an evidence of my existence. So, everybody knows there must be a Creator, God, Lord who made all this perfect building.

Then after a while (some million years) I would change some physical laws for a short time and then rechanging it to the normal way. This were an evidence of my imperfect existence. Why doing such nonsens? Only for making ONE person believing on me? And then this person travels through his world and kills all people who do not believe the same way? Haha, this is not a sign of the Lord but a sign of the devil...

The Lord told us to believe in us self. It's the devil who tells us again and again to believe his words, his signs, his suggestions. Miracle oil in random shapes or something like that are often a sign of the devil who is sneering at Jesus whenever he can. Please, do not believe to the Lord as a result of this miracle! Find God in your heart!!!

Okay. I see the future. I think...
I can feel this thread gradually getting to the bottom of the page and then disappearing in archives somewhere.

I wonder who will be responcible for that? God or the devil?
That will be a topic of our next discussion.

-ED-

Sheriff: Why did you say that this person travels all the world and kills people who do not believe the same way ? Jesus who is clearly the object of this miracle taught us to love our enemies. I don't understand where you got this opposite notion.

The devil's work is all trying to lead people astray from the true path to God. The true path to God leads to good things in this life and beyond. God proves that He is God in the best way He could. He does it by doing extraordinary miracles (not "ordinary" miracles I stress). The bible is FULL of it. Why ? Because nobody else can do it except God the creator. It is the Creator's unique signature !!

The bible teaches that we ought not to believe in ourselves but to believe God and His teachings. Because our beliefs are shaped by our environment, etc and oftentimes will lead us into trouble (chilhood abuse, our carnal nature, etc). In fact to sum up the whole Bible, it's all about loving God and loving our fellow men and women. You do those things and you will please God.

God's love is very personal. In fact if there is only ONE person to be saved, God will go out of His way and save that person. This is all explained clearly in the bible. But God also despised proud person who in spite of all the things God tried to bring them back, they rejected God outright.

And I don't understand why you say this miracle oil was in "random" shapes. It is NOT random. It is placed very artistically and strategically. In fact it was placed right on the eyes of Jesus with one picture. Then in another in the form of a heart with tiny droplets surounding the heart. It is very unique for every picture and the work of an intelligent being without any doubt !

Ed: if this topic disappears, I don't mind. I know if that is so, then God let it happened. It is probably for the best. God has many other ways to reach people. The devil is now scared I can tell you that. Because Heaven is knocking on someone's door right now.

"Knock-knock-knocking on Heaven's doo-oo-oo-oo-or"

-ED-

[This message has been edited by 3351 (edited 08-06-2005).]

@lukitoh: I'm glad to see that you're strong in your belief too.
Thank you for discussion! It was really refreshing me!!! But now my arguments are out but in some kind of way I think you're not far away from my way of belief...

@ED: Yeah! Music rules!!!

Sheriff: about your point "please do not believe as a result of this miracle" is well taken. But on the other hand, one must not be too rigid and ignore the obvious facts before them. Have you heard the story of Jesus fed thousands with five loaves of bread and two fish ? Is there any logic or "chemical effects" that can explain that ??? This miracle oil event that is unfolding before us now is very similar to that. It is obviously a miracle. As I mentioned I have seen other miracles as well. I think miracles are the only true signature of God the creator in which God proves and reveal/communicate to His creation that He is the boss. But if we choose to ignore this important revelation provided by God, then we ignore God in a way.

I agree that relationship with God is the most important thing rather than the miracles itself. However, the important question is whether that being that you have relationship with is a true God or an imaginary one or worse, the devil himself inside the person. The bible clearly teaches us that one of the BIG sign of a genuine believer is that signs and wonders shall follow them. And their life reflects Jesus' teachings. It's like if you are a close friend with Bill Gates, occasionally Mr. Bill will do something extraordinary through you because he is so powerful and rich.

We are living in the times of miracles right now. It should not be too hard to believe in Jesus. Many spectacular healings and miracles were done through the name of Jesus. God chooses His miracles and He does it by His own free will not because we expect Him to do certain things. One can complain all they want why such miracles are chosen and not others. But the plain fact is they are true miracles that can be only performed by an intelligent being (creator) who is in complete control of the law of nature instead of controlled by it.

Regarding strong belief: well, I rather have the RIGHT belief than the WRONG belief that I hold so tightly. Miracles are not the end but is a means to an end. By believing in miracles of God I was delivered from an acute allergy that caused me to have skin rash all over my body that caused many cuts and open sores for many months in an instant. Thank goodness for miracles.

Yeah cool. You're right. God and all. Totally. I agree. You can now relax. Relax brother. Jesus is with you. I'm sure he too appreciates other things like music. Liek relax dude. Deep breaths. In and out. In and out. Good!

Now. you've proven to be a worthy believer. God loves you and stuff. Really! Be cool now.

[This message has been edited by 3351 (edited 08-07-2005).]

Yes, I did! I love this story!!! I try to do so as good as I can! If I'm getting jobless friends I'm inviting them to eat with me. So, I'm getting less and less but we all are fedded by the same food. I don't feed thousands in one rush but before I'll be dead it'll be thousands...


I hope you're well again now!!!

Do you mean believing in miracles instead of believing in God? - In this case it could be a warning from our Creator!
Or do you mean believing in miracles of God AND believing in God at the same time? - In this case maybe you're slightly overdosed by the True Belief!


Whatever you see as a miracle of God. It's not a blame to not see all of His signs because we are humans - we're not perfect like Him...
In nomine padre et filii et spiriti sankti, Amen!

3351: Don't worry, I am relaxed otherwise I won't be writing and visitting the BAR and synthzone. I wrote these things for the people's benefit (not mine or defending my belief). It's just a very unusual event that even the smartest people around are baffled when they see these miraculous events such as that oil miracle. I thought people would find it interesting.

Sheriff: Not sure if you're serious to know about this stuff. About overdosed by "true belief": believing in the true God is the most important thing. The miracles will follow, OK ? But if one does not believe in "extraordinary" miracles then one might just shut an important door that might save him/her in certain difficult problems, right ? If I did not believe that God still performs miracles (better wording maybe), I probably would still have that acute rashes all over my body now. Or those people will still have their defective feet and blind eyes all their lives !

I wonder if you believe the story of the five loaves bread and two fish, why you are so skeptical about the oil miracle ? Just curious.

Well, I dont really believe this story in that form it was mentioned. In my opinion the Bible is a historical book with many unlogical sequences. Nevertheless, you can learn a lot about the human's life style in earlier years. But I didn't find my Belief inside this book. God's arguments has changed over the years (chapters). So, it's logical to me that this kind of Belief doesn't make any sense.

I found my way through the voice in my heart...
Maybe, I have a hot wire to our Lord!?! He's calling me day by day...
Oups? Sorry, it was 'Karel Gott' who called me...
No, just kidding...

[This message has been edited by Sheriff (edited 08-08-2005).]

About God's arguments changed over the years: there is definitely a shift between the old testament and the new BUT it was mentioned and if one is careful enough will draw conclusions that they are all part of the grand scheme of things right from the beginning in the book of Genesis in fact. From the sacrifices of animals, then the book of Isiah when it talks about the perfect sacrifice that is to come (not animals), etc. So, it is not that God suddenly changes His mind. Even if so, nobody can blame God. After all He is the boss ! It does not matter whether it makes sense to anyone or not. In fact if you look at nature, such as the duality properties of light is seemingly contradiction. Or why God created certain things that seemingly unneeded. It does not make sense to most people. But the fact is all are obviously created by an intelligent being.


The million dollar question is how does one know the voice inside is the REAL God ?


But I think I know the answer.... you guessed it..... miracles, prophecies are the real signatures of God ! God of the bible uses these things a lot to show that it is God that is speaking. Philosphies, words, etc are not powerful enough....God wants to show His power to authenticate His message.

And how should we follow Him if we don't understand His words? If He really is a God then He should know that we can't understand a God's thinking or His unlogical signs. Maybe that's the reason for so many different christian comunities today? About 2,000 years after the life of Jesus there's nobody in our world who knows his real words and his true job. The original scripts are probably lost - all we have are translations which were made by people who lived a long time after Jesus died. So, I'm really sceptic against the Bible...


In my case there were two intelligent beings who created me - my parents!!!


Is that really necessary? I mean He created the whole universe. Who else should have done that? We all are living miracles and we can see His wonderful Creation day by day. Even if we're dreaming we are able to feel the power of the Creation. Please, tell me, is there any more that a God could do to show His power and might? What are oil drops in heart form or tears from Madonna statues compared with the whole universe?

Another point is: If the Creator has the absolute might and the total enlightenment then He should have create the humans as true believers. But He made some mistakes!
1. He created 5 arch angels and one of them was Luzifer!!!
2. He banished Luzifer from the paradies instead of killing him. So, He created the Hell!!!
3. He created us as an image of Himself without to bind us with a fixed Belief. So, we will have to decide for ourselves which way to go!!!

This isn't really perfect for a perfect being! Why did He create good AND evil? Is He sitting in front of a PlayStation and playing wargames? And we are the statists in this game...

BTW: The book of Genesis is somewhat lacking! They forgot to translate the following passage:
"On the 8th day God created Rock'n'Roll!"

I have to totally agree with Sheriff there. God doesn't need to prove his existance through some Mickey Mouse miracles.
I am a living proof of the fact that god exists. Simply because nobody else is capable of creating a miracle like me!!!

Oh man. Just agreee with them believers. Please! Let them believe. After all if they truely believe in miracles then they really can find better things to do then convince others and defend their beliefs. So if someone here is absolutely certain that the miracle oil is a sign of god tby all means! Believe that. No need to convince others though. Especially when things get way pass the point of being absurd.

-ED

The bible is the only written words of God that was translated and printed by mankind. Anything that mankind do, well it is not perfect. But at the very least, if you really want, you can get the main things that God is trying to say in the Bible. It is quite clear to many people. So, if you are not clear about it, I suggest you find a good "authentic" Christian that had those signs and wonders that follow them and ask your detailed questions. Look: Do you want man-made philosophies that made sense to you or the true God's words which does not totally make sense to you ? I pick the latter. Hey at least I pick God's words that had REAL power over the universe rather than man-made philospophies that had little power in comparison. At least I have some hope when I am in situations where no man can help me.

You forgot something about who created you: who created your parents, and your grandparents, and great grandparents, and so on. Not just your parents, right ! I know you're just jesting but at some point, there must be a question who created the universe with such intelligent designs ?

The reason God created these "mini extraordinary miracles" is to show people that God is still in charge. I think it's pretty obvious to most. I don't understand why it's hard to grasp that ?

Mistakes by God ? That is a possibility. So what ? God is still God even when He makes mistakes. So, are we going to say, there is no possibility that God makes mistakes. So, if the so-called God makes mistakes then that is not a true God. If we do that, then I think we are being too arrogant to ourselves.

About your concerns on Lucifer, hell, etc: good point but why should you bother yourself too much about it ? I know this that we are given free will so it gives God greater pleasure to love Him out of our own free will. Maybe an analogy: Would you like to marry a wife that is forced to marry you instead of loving you willingly ?

I think I can make it simple: TEST what you believe NOT whether it makes sense to you or not but whether it's TRUE or not. Just like the law of gravity that two objects no matter how heavy will fall at the same rate if dropped from the same location and the same time. It does not seem to make sense at first but the fact says exactly opposite to our sense. The whole pivot of Christianity is not about philosphies but there is real POWER and real miracles in the words of God and proves beyond shadow of doubt that it's true in its message. Lets not concern ourselves with misprints, little discrepancies but to check whether these things are true or not.

So if Sheriff and I agreed with you on everything and totally and unconditionally accepted the fact that god is trying to send us a message through miracle old flowing out of nothing would you then go away???

Seriously man. There is no argument here. None what so ever. Even though I still agree with Sheriff I can also tell that there's a lot of truth to things that you say and examples that you give.

I don't think anybody can be right or wrong about something that they don't entirely understand. A guess is about all we're all in title too when it comes down to religion and faith.

So miracle or not the oil is still flowing out of nothing. What it means is only for us to guess. Are we playing who can guess right? What is happenning here?

-ED-

And up from the ground came a bubbling crude ... black gold ... Texas tea ....


Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

If god is perfect,then there should be NO mistakes or errors,the bible should be 100% accurate.If you say you must have faith and believe,then the same could be said for all the other religions, they will say have faith and believe.So if one religion is right then the others are wrong.We only have around 70-80 years on this earth.you have religions and governments which TAKE CONTROL of your lives,from the school with your education which is decided from the higher authorities through to your adult life,you are expected to do as you are told but when you ask awkward questions,they either shrug you off with excuses ,or who are you to question, just believe? Brainwashing is a term that is used by governments when people change ie,terrorists,but we are all brainwashed and controlled by our own country.why should the laws work only one way and not apply to all? Because the church and governments work hand in hand.In Genesis we are told that ADAM AND EVE had 2 sons at the beginning CAIN and ABEL,CAIN KILLED ABEL ,and so CAIN was bannished abroad,the next son born was SETH,through SETH,S WIFE??? who was she?? produced future generations.So when you ask questions like these from the people who represent the church WHAT DO THEY SAY.oh err umm err.In the past people were kept ignorant,do as you are told, don,t ask questions and put money in the plate,clever thing education,so long as you don,t know too much.

[This message has been edited by nardoni2002 (edited 08-09-2005).]

[This message has been edited by nardoni2002 (edited 08-09-2005).]

3351: not sure why you want me to go away. I thought we're all cool here, no ? I'm just sharing my thoughts. If you feel offended, I really don't see why. Did I hurt you in anyway ? I don't understand. We have different opinions but that's no reason to have enmity. (Nigel is watching as you know, better play nice) Also remember, I started the thread..hmmm.

Nardoni: Can God make mistakes ? Unlikely but I say it's possible. But one thing I know, God is smarter than anyone or all of us put together. Who are we to define what God should be like ? Then that God is the fruit of our thoughts/imaginations if we are the ones who define God. It's like saying, our parents should be flawless according to our standards. The real world is not like that. Our parents for some turned out to be very different than that of our ideals ! Our job is to determine which of these so-called gods is the REAL God, the creator of the universe. And then to get to know God which takes a lifetime.

If you are in a group where they take control of your lives like you mentioned, then maybe you should find another group. It should be a liberating and nourishing experience IMO. Here in USA, you are free to join any group you want. I say don't worry about the past, or those "controlling/brain washing" people. At my church and all the churches that I know in my area, nobody is forced to put any money on the offering plates. It's all voluntary. But one thing I recommend is that the church should exhibit some characteristics of God...things like power, miracles, prophecies...just like in the Bible. And the people should exhibit kindness, goodness, love , joy, peace.... (good stuff). It won't be perfect most of the time but should at least exhibit those characterisitics most of the time. Heck, you can establish your own church and then you don't have to worry about controls, money, etc. You make sure that it's CLEAN ! It's not very hard to do, you know. We're living in modern times now, thank God.

You mentioned "just believe" when you asked certain clergies: they either don't have the answer or lack time and patience toward you. Christianity should not be a blind faith experience. And I believe God will have some provisions for that. That is why God created these miracles so reasonable people can be awaken and ponder on them and hopefully faith may arise.

Actually I am not offended. Nor I want to kick you out of this forum. Nor I am the type to be intimidated by administration. I thought it was obvious. I follow the rules just liek everyone else.

Anyway. have you read what I've posted after my joke about you having to go away?

I just don't understand you. what is it that you want? In your replies it comes across as if you feel that you are a better christian because your faith is stronger than the faith of those who disagree with you. Even if that's not the case it does come across that way. Be careful. Some people might be offended by that attitude. Even if it is not intentional.

You said that your intent is to share opinions. That's great but forgive me if I state the obvious. It seems as if you have posted here about something that really fascinates you and expected a certain kind of a reply
Obviously everyone replied with what they wanted instead of writing what you wanted or expected to hear (well read in this case ). Why is it so shocking to you? Must you now argue and try to persuade everyone who disagrees with you and chooses not to believe in miracles?

I do not see the point to this discussion at all. So there's oil flowing. Now what? Of coarse some will see it as a sign of god, some will think that it is a trick, some will look for scientific proof etc. What are you trying to do? Where is this going?

-ED-

[This message has been edited by 3351 (edited 08-09-2005).]

[This message has been edited by 3351 (edited 08-09-2005).]

2 points, 1st, according to the bible GOD is perfect,so perfection means no flaws,no mistakes,after all the Devil was a fallen angel because of pride.2nd in the usa there are loads and loads of breakaway churches,as i stated before the bible and religion should say the same thing,because they don,t you get breakaways,you can,t go from one to another to find the right one, you don,t live long enough,you are lucky to find the one that is right for you.remember the saying beware of the people that tickle your ears with their words,think about it.

Ed: OK, so we're cool then. What is it that I want ? Not much, I was just excited to see that extraordinary miracles. Just like someone who is excited who just got a new job, a new keyboard, a new whatever. If someone has some new insights then that would be quite interesting. But if there is something that I can chime in from my experience or reasonings that could benefit them then I will freely share. If it does not benefit you, then by all means do not read the thread further but I think you might find it interesting.

Honestly, my faith is not that great really. I have lots of knowledge compared to non-Christians. Those people that God uses in healing others, perform miracles often, prophesy hidden pasts and futuristic things are the ones that have great faith. I have seen a number of people that had great faith in church meetings that I attended. It still amazes me when they happen.

You asked, so what ? Where is it going ? : it will take whatever turns that people wish. Sometimes to the left, right, up or down. I don't control it.

"Expecting certain kind of reply": any reply is allright by me. But if it's different from mine that's ok too. I just stated my reply and hopefully we all learned from the experience. If all the replies are positive then that is good, if all negatives then I want to know why. Maybe there is something I can learn in the negative responses.

Nardoni: About perfection, I know that God had regrets on the whole humanity in the days of Noah. That was the reason of the flood. God wanted to start over. We can probably say that God's decisions/creations were perfect in the beginning but mankind ruined it. So I'm not totally sure about this perfection deal.

About "beware of people that tickle your ears": what they said must conform to the written words of God if they call themselves Christian. As far as the interpretations, one can only do the best they could.