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#68292 - 03/15/09 03:39 PM Dimished Chords
Bob Hendershot Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/99
Posts: 924
Loc: Johnson City, TN USA
Several posts in another thread talked about diminished chords. This is an interesting issue for some of you music theorists. Often in modern lead sheets you come across a chord with a 7-9 identifier. For example a C7-9 is usually played as C#,E, G and Bb and the general rule when you are figuring out the fingering on the fly is to raise the root note of a seventh chord by one semitone. And, the sound of a 7-9 chord is the same as a diminished chord. But, that leaves you with a C family chord with no C. Most arranger keyboards would interpret that fingering to be a C#dim chord.

The question is: Assume you are playing a bass line with alternating root and fifth notes. What bass notes would you play with a C7-9 chord? I would play a C# and G but have no idea what is right . . .

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#68293 - 03/15/09 03:41 PM Re: Dimished Chords
Bob Hendershot Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/99
Posts: 924
Loc: Johnson City, TN USA
Must be a dumb question . . . Can't even spell diminished right in the subject of the thread . . .

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#68294 - 03/15/09 05:27 PM Re: Dimished Chords
Audrey Turner Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/19/02
Posts: 1084
Loc: Cambridge, Cambs, England
Hello Bob,

I was taught the 'piano' chords which I use to this day on my KN7 with the BASS NOTE set to 'On'. This clever keyboard sorts out the relevant rhythm by using my bass note as a guide whatever it is, so to be honest I wouldn't know whether I'm using a diminished chord or not but what I do know is, without the 'BASS NOTE' activated, my 'piano' chords sometimes clash with the style I'm using making the whole thing sound discordant.

I really must learn to use the correct keyboard chords. Old habits die hard I'm afraid - but I get away with it - most of the time that is.

Audrey

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#68295 - 03/15/09 06:23 PM Re: Dimished Chords
bruno123 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 3276
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
Bob,
What you are saying is correct – a C7-9 with a C# bass note, not good. Try the inversions of the C7-9 chord the keyboard should be calling for different bass notes according to the inversion.

And that’s a guess, John C.

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#68296 - 03/15/09 07:12 PM Re: Dimished Chords
Bob Hendershot Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/99
Posts: 924
Loc: Johnson City, TN USA
Yes, John, I agree. I usually play a C7-9 with the G on the bottom which results in a Gdim chord as far as the KN7000 keyboard is concerned. The inversion that you use affects the bass line of the APC part with an arranger. I'm really trying to get at the proper way to interpret a 7-9 chord as it relates to a bass line. For example, if you were playing a piano, what bass notes would you play.

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#68297 - 03/16/09 04:07 AM Re: Dimished Chords
bruno123 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 3276
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
Bob,
Piano and organ players will use the root in many cases. Many times these players will use a base line either chromatic or in 4th and 5th to tell a story, it’s the beautiful part of those instruments. It’s my opinion that our styles sound mechanical for that very reason, we have a boring base line.

I have used piano music (Both staves) to make a sequence using the written base line (The left hand) and the sequence was anything but boring. Drums are acceptable in the styles, but bass is the heart of music, it can change the mood of any song. In my guitar and piano playing I try to give the bass lines special attention. The melody is telling a story, the chords tell another, and the bass complements it all.

John C.

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#68298 - 03/16/09 04:16 AM Re: Dimished Chords
bruno123 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 3276
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
Listen to contemporary music, the bass dominates. Most sound systems have a sub-woofer -- the main reason to emphasize the bass. When I moved to Yamaha the first thing I had to work on was the bass sound it was right up front, I do not want that with Big Band music. (30’s and 40’s music)

When I had the KN7000 I added a small sub-woofer below the keyboard and the sound was complete to my ears.

John C.

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#68299 - 03/16/09 04:39 AM Re: Dimished Chords
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
Hi Bob,
As you know, I don't claim to know much about music theory but you have me a little confused Surely a C7-9 chord would include a 'D' not a C# since D is the 9th note of a C scale. If I was to play a C7-9 then the notes I would expect to play would be C,E,G Bb and D. Since that's a bit of a handful, I would drop the low C and just play E,G,Bb and D, which produces much the same sound.
However, the KN7000 interprets this combination of keys as Em7b5 which I suppose it is! - quite a chords having 2 possible names........
Using my unorthodox method of fingering in my left hand, I could include a 'C' by bridging the upper 'C' and 'D' with my thumb!!
If a C# is included within the chord, surely this would indicate a 'b9' (flat 9th) ?? rather than a '9th', or have I got this completely wrong?

Just had another thought - maybe the '-9' part of the name is another way of describing a flat 9th? in which case that would account for the C#
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#68300 - 03/16/09 04:48 AM Re: Dimished Chords
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
Hi John,
I totally agree with you about the importance of the Bass part in a style or sequence. The Bass line is the root on which the whole sound is built. It needn't be totally dominant and loud - as is often the case with some of the modern 'music', but it has to have the right 'feel'.
It is one of the main reasons why I spend so much time building my own styles, or include a totally separate bass track, in a sequence.
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#68301 - 03/16/09 06:21 AM Re: Dimished Chords
Bob Hendershot Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/99
Posts: 924
Loc: Johnson City, TN USA
"Just had another thought - maybe the '-9' part of the name is another way of describing a flat 9th?"

That's precisely it, Bill. It is a flatted 9th. If you played a D it would be a C7add9 chord. A 7-9 chord is really a diminished chord in the way that it sounds and the way it is used.

I agree with you John. But I am still groping for the correct way to play a bass line with a 7-9 chord. Are you saying that for a C7-9 chord, a "C" in the bass line is correct instead of a C#? The inversion that is used for the chord would determine what bass notes were chosen by an arranger keyboard for the APC part. I'm not all that sure that an arranger can get it right for the bass.

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#68302 - 03/16/09 09:09 AM Re: Dimished Chords
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
Thanks for that Bob - I wonder why that chord isn't called C7b9 - maybe it is also referred to as that, as an alternative. For instance, I often see chords written as C7b5 but haven't come across C7-5......
As you say, it sounds just like a diminished(7th) chord and the KN7000 treats it as such, which is not surprising since the notes are actually a C#dim7. (or Edim7 or Gdim7 or A#dim7). Having had a play around with several different styles on my KN7000, the APC Bass notes just seem to play some or all of the notes within the diminished(7th) chord, as I would expect. The order in which they are played depends on the inversion of the chord. If I was composing a Bass track, I would normally do the same, since any other notes seem to be discordant.

Another peculiarity of the KN7000 is that if you just play a diminished triad - say C,D#,F# - the KN7000 treats this as Cmb5 (C minor flat5) - which I suppose it is - but if you add the 'A' on top, which technically makes it a C diminished 7th, the display then shows the chord as a C dim. Personally, if I see a chord sequence which includes a diminished chord, I always play a diminished 7th, since it sounds better to my ear............
In my experience, diminished chords on guitar always use the 4 notes and technically are Dim7th chords - any comments on that point John C. ?
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#68303 - 03/16/09 10:24 AM Re: Dimished Chords
Bob Hendershot Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/99
Posts: 924
Loc: Johnson City, TN USA
"APC Bass notes just seem to play some or all of the notes within the diminished(7th) chord, as I would expect. The order in which they are played depends on the inversion of the chord. If I was composing a Bass track, I would normally do the same, since any other notes seem to be discordant."

Yes, Bill. That is what I have found. And, that is why I have problems accepting the use of the root note of the chord in the bass line where a 7-9 occurs. It sounds discordant to me. I tend to want to walk the bass line toward the next chord which would usually involve a D. ie: C in the measure before the C7-9, C# in the measure with the C7-9 and a D in the next measure.

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#68304 - 03/16/09 11:43 AM Re: Dimished Chords
larry gosmeyer Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 394
Loc: La Verne, CA USA
Hi Bob,

In my case, when the music calls for a C7-9 chord, I interpret this as a C7th chord with the 9th note in the C Scale flatted.

When arranging the song I would use the C7th designation in the base "APC" track, and if I wanted to I would use the D flat note in the right hand chord if it fit the melody and if it acomplished the sound effect that I was trying to get.

To me the use of the C7-9 chord is no where close to the use of the Gdim chord as it normally appears in the progression of harmonic chords in the melody of a song.

Having said that, it is always possible to alter the usual chord progression of a song, in order to embellish the listening characteristics of the song to meet the performer or audience's desires.

Just about anything goes if it sounds good.

Just one man's opinion.

Larry Gosmeyer

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#68305 - 03/16/09 12:01 PM Re: Dimished Chords
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
I understand exactly what you mean Bob. Try this :
Select the Club Combo in the Jazz and Swing Styles, Tempo around 120 and Variation2.
Start the style and play one bar of each chord - C Major, C#dim7 (or C7-9), Dm7, G7 and repeat....... a Typical short Jazz progression or 'fill'. The Bass line in that simple sequence sounds good to me
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#68306 - 03/16/09 12:35 PM Re: Dimished Chords
Bob Hendershot Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/99
Posts: 924
Loc: Johnson City, TN USA
"When arranging the song I would use the C7th designation in the base "APC" track"

Thanks Larry.

So, if you allow the APC bass notes to sound, you would hear the proper bass notes for the C7 chords without the -9th. It makes sense musically but doesn't seem to sound right to me when I play it. I can see how I might do it in a sequence by inserting the -9th in the right hand, but I think it is beyond my abilities to do it on the fly. And, I don't know how to do it at all if I am trying to use Technichord.

I think this is all beyond my limited knowledge . . .

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#68307 - 03/16/09 01:34 PM Re: Dimished Chords
bruno123 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 3276
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
Most guitar players, if they have gone a bit below the surface, have a good understanding of chords and chord progressions.
1-Piano player -- Ten fingers
2-Organ players – Ten Fingers and One foot.
3-Our group, depending on how we are set up, will have Ten fingers or five, (Left hand).

Since a 13th chord has seven notes (1 3 5 b7 9 11 13) the players who have Ten fingers can, but do not, use all 13 notes. As a guitar player I can only play 6 notes having only six strings.

The question; --- Which ones shall I play?

1—Root – It is important. It set the foundation of the chord.
III – The third -- It is very important, it tells us that the chord is major minor.
5 – The fifth -- Not very important
bV7 – Flatted seventh – The seventh tells us about the key we are in or going to. C Maj7 is part of the key of C major. C7, sometimes refers to as C dominate 7th, belongs to the key of F Major. So C7 and Cmaj7 are very different.
9 – The ninth -- A tone for an effect
11 – The Eleventh – Also a tone for effect
13 – The Thirteenth – Also a tone for effect

I need the 3rd, and the 7th, and possibly the root, and then the color tone. The color tone is the tones are the 9 11, and 13th. For a G13th chord I play;
G B F E, G = the root B = the third F = the b7th E = the 13th.

Larry mentioned, chords in both hands. A different game, more flexibility, a far better opportunity to voice a better chord. Left hand plays the C7 chord. C, E, G, Bb, and the right hand can add color tones, or leading tones.

Please excuse me, this is a bit long, when I get into this subject I lose myself. Somewhere in the KN7000 you can select having the chord play only the root. (I think, it’s been a long time)

John C.

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#68308 - 03/16/09 04:38 PM Re: Dimished Chords
Audrey Turner Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/19/02
Posts: 1084
Loc: Cambridge, Cambs, England
Yes John, that is what I was saying.

I use piano chords with the BASS NOTE faciliy set to 'On' The KN7 then uses my bottom note 'C' and sorts it out. There are of course several inversions shown in the Chord Finder section of the KN7. When I get a discordant sound, I just move a finger or two until I think it sounds right. I guess I'll never become famous but it is fun to play nevetheless.

Audrey

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#68309 - 03/16/09 05:07 PM Re: Dimished Chords
Bob Hendershot Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/99
Posts: 924
Loc: Johnson City, TN USA
Oh Well . . .

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#68310 - 03/16/09 05:12 PM Re: Dimished Chords
bruno123 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 3276
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
Audrey,
I have to smile when I read, “I just move a finger or two” great!
Chet Atkins replied when asked if he could read music, “Not enough to hurt my playing”, so very true.

The end product is how it sounds and it sounds like you’re there.

John C.

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#68311 - 03/16/09 06:42 PM Re: Dimished Chords
Bob Hendershot Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/99
Posts: 924
Loc: Johnson City, TN USA
"The end product is how it sounds"

Perfect! I knew I would learn something with this thread!

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#68312 - 03/16/09 11:44 PM Re: Dimished Chords
The Saint Offline
Member

Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 543
Loc: Sydney Australia
I am amazed, No DISGUSTED.
Others posts on other sites never cease to waffle on about all the tweaking that can or cannot be done on various instruments, and here we have musicians !!!!!!!!saying any note is ok if it sounds ok. Rubbish!!!. If that is the case, why bother using more than one finger? E.G. Easyplay music is written with most basic chords, but if you play what the composer wrote, you have the true enhancement and meaning of the composition.
I am not the best player in the world but by God I try to be, every time I touch the keys.
Please tell me that some of the posters only have the accomp. on (and no Left 1 voices)and I might understand that you cannot hear something a bit sour. If I have a voice on L1 (always, no matter how soft) I soon know when I hit a bad one. End of lesson 10.
BTW when a 6th, 9th, flat 9th etc. is required it often co-incides with a right hand note.
Enough!!!, I'm off to play golf where I know nuttin'
Ray


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Ray The Saint
_________________________
Ray The Saint

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#68313 - 03/17/09 01:44 AM Re: Dimished Chords
Nigel Offline
Admin

Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 5936
Loc: Ventura CA USA
Take a deep breath Ray.

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#68314 - 03/17/09 01:54 AM Re: Dimished Chords
The Saint Offline
Member

Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 543
Loc: Sydney Australia
AHA!!!
There IS someone out there.
Nigel, I have just taken 3 strokes off my golf handicap, but I would never dare to take 3 notes from my playing.
I started to calm down. when I suddenly realized this could become like The Arranger Forum. Sorry. But I meant what I said.
The (not so perfect) Saint.

------------------
Ray The Saint
_________________________
Ray The Saint

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#68315 - 03/17/09 01:58 AM Re: Dimished Chords
The Saint Offline
Member

Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 543
Loc: Sydney Australia
Hey Nigel,
Don't you ever sleep?
Ray

------------------
Ray The Saint
_________________________
Ray The Saint

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#68316 - 03/17/09 04:16 AM Re: Dimished Chords
bruno123 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 3276
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
We are not all at the same level when it comes to music. Some wear finer clothes than others, some have larger and better cars, and some love to look deeper. We all live a different levels. I try to encourage everyone by praising them at their level considering that the majority play music for their own enjoyment. And for some the correct note, the proper note is a must. I fit into this last category but after 20 years of teaching music I have learned to meet people at their level, so that I may help them and enjoy them.

I am intrigued with the world of Chords and chord progressions, I do my best, both with the guitar and keyboard, to have the chords tell their own story so that I have a melody story. Without bass pedals there is no bass story.

Life is good, John C.

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#68317 - 03/17/09 07:45 AM Re: Dimished Chords
etwo4788 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 518
Loc: S.E. New Mexico USA
LADIES/GENTLEMEN/MUSICIANS

Each and every one of you are so very helpful to me, a player, no claim to musicianship. Almost everything you offer on all these threads is helpful to me.

Most of you have communicated with me personally via email to answer my many questions. Additionally, you have shared your music and information with me by personal contact as well.

I know that I am not a trained musician. I know that learning all the things you know about music theory, proper chording, etc. would enhance my music for me and my audiences as well.

However..... When what I play sounds good to me and my audiences... we are all happy campers. On a daily basis I tweak and tweak the sounds in my registrations to make them just a bit better to my ear.

At this point in my life, learning to play all the notes in the bass cleff and exactly as the composer wrote is more of a challenge than I am willing to tackle... My fingers are a bit arthritic and I am getting older...

Kinda like my golf game...long ago given up in order to do other things that I enjoy more. I moved from country club living to full time RV'ing, a very different life. I would not return to country club living and following the rules others find satisfying.

Living in the "Realm Of All Possibilities" is my favorite place to be. Learning by personal experience works best,for me. No ideology is excluded unless proven experientially is valid. What is valid at that point, may or may not be valid to others. For me it may be invalid the next moment, or the next, or the next moment. I know that there will be more moments where change may or may not seem appropriate, for me. So be it... as long as life exists I am convinced there is a moment by moment opportunity to make changes that will or will not enhance my life experience.

My appreciation for life in general and music specifically has taught me that this perspective works really well. I am jumping through my own woops and enjoying living moment by moment....

Maybe one of these days I will really want to learn to play my music according to all the rules of theory as all of you describe, maybe not...

In the meantime, I will keep on keepin on being all I can be, moment by moment. I will be checking in here on a daily basis enjoying all the messages and opportunities to learn more about music through your shared thoughts....

I have sent this page to myself via email. One day, should I choose to get into proper chording/playing/musical theory...I will have it to refer to....

Thank you for all you do. I love all of you very much...

Elizabeth




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#68318 - 03/17/09 09:47 AM Re: Dimished Chords
RMepstead Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 1478
Loc: Wootton Bassett - Wiltshire - ...
Hey John C - how come you have got 10 fingers when I've only got 8. I didn't notice that when we were together over in Florida!!!
Rog
_________________________
Roger M

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#68319 - 03/17/09 10:15 AM Re: Dimished Chords
Bob Hendershot Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/99
Posts: 924
Loc: Johnson City, TN USA
Isn't it wonderful how we can all disagree with a smile on our faces . . .

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#68320 - 03/17/09 03:05 PM Re: Dimished Chords
bruno123 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 3276
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
posted by RMepstead:
[B]Hey John C - how come you have got 10 fingers when I've only got 8. I didn't notice that when we were together over in Florida!!!
Rog

Hi Rog,
First, I miss being together, we had a great time. Peter and I still write.

Second, I guessing that you do not use your thumbs, hence only a total of 8.
(Grin)
John C.

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#68321 - 03/17/09 03:08 PM Re: Dimished Chords
bruno123 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 3276
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
posted by Bob Hendershot:
[B]Isn't it wonderful how we can all disagree with a smile on our faces .

I can remember a Bob Hendershot gently holding me down as I began to run with the righteous flag.

Thanks Bob, John C.

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#68322 - 03/17/09 10:07 PM Re: Dimished Chords
kn7 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/05
Posts: 129
It truly amazes me how far (nowhere) you members of this forum have advanced in knowing anything about harmony, learning how to play chords when you all have the chord diagram included with your keyboard. This is one of the reasons why I dropped out of this forum. Few learn anything. Sure, you learn how to use Jukebox to download Midi that someone else has created and have learned some of the technical buttons to push in order to do one thing or another but you all have had a wonderful opportunity to be better musicians because of the fine capabilities that the Technics keyboards have given you through many years. Most of you have advanced to the later models as they came out and still know little about really knowing how to play the keyboard. Reading Hendershot’s post about diminished chords, I almost busted a gut laughing at everyone’s posts. You people are a riot! Talk about blind leading the blind! To begin with, Bob, your stating C#,E, G and Bb is a C7-9 chord. It is a C# diminish chord and nothing more. The so-called C7-9 diminish that you are actually referring to is a C7-b9. (C#,E,G,Bb and C in the bass) That is accomplished by playing the root note C along with C#,E, G and Bb. Of course, if any of you had the gumption to turn on your keyboard and put it in PIANIST MODE, you could figure out what makes one chord different from the other. The screen in the keyboard shows exactly the chord you are playing.

Most of you still don’t get it that the pre-set styles in the keyboard will not respond correctly in the bass when playing any decent harmony. These styles are created to SELL THE INSTRUMENT. They sort of sound good if you play a chord and let it run wild, much like a mouse after a piece of cheese. Actually using it in a song becomes another matter. I have mentioned over the years several times trying to encourage you to do your own bass patterns but no, you would rather suffer with what is in the keyboard or depend on someone else to send you something they created. Even if you don’t know how to arrange in COMPOSER, at least put one of your styles in COMPOSER that you use and change the bass line. Experiment! A bass line with several notes played in a measure will create nothing but discord harmony. This is why Audrey’s music doesn’t sound right at times. This goes for the rest of you, as well. Your bass notes should be primarily within a C chord by using C, E or G. I am talking about being in COMPOSER and composing in the key of C. None of what I have said will do any good because you are off on your own ‘stumbling gaily along’ playing, having fun but not understanding why things don’t always sound very good. Don’t blame the keyboard. It is responding correctly for whatever bass notes are in the pre-set style.

Bob, you will never get a C7-b9 using TECHNI-CHORD. However, there is a way around it and technically, you can get it if you play a C7th chord with your left hand, and play a C# with your right hand with TECHNI-CHORD on. Generally, this won’t work well when you are playing a melody line with your right hand. My point – because it can technically sound correct as a C7-b9, using it in a song is most unlikely unless the melody happens to fall on the C#.

Scott

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#68323 - 03/18/09 02:05 AM Re: Dimished Chords
RMepstead Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 1478
Loc: Wootton Bassett - Wiltshire - ...
Why be so angry when you're so talented, Scott?
Rog
_________________________
Roger M

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#68324 - 03/18/09 02:28 AM Re: Dimished Chords
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
Quote "This is one of the reasons why I dropped out of this forum"

Then why not just stay away from the forum - we can all do without your Smart-Ass, offensive remarks!
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#68325 - 03/18/09 06:53 AM Re: Dimished Chords
Bob Hendershot Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/99
Posts: 924
Loc: Johnson City, TN USA
I try not to respond to Scott Reed’s cynicism but in this case he is right from a technical standpoint. He just says it in a very repulsive way. And, it is the same thing John C and Larry G had already said.

We are talking about playing an arranger keyboard. Most of us use an arranger keyboard because it takes our limited knowledge or talent and can make it sound much better than we could otherwise play. If we didn’t feel we needed that added support we could just play a piano or a simple keyboard without all the frills like APC, etc.

Some of you may remember Scott Yee’s comments about “rootless” chords and the problems we have trying to get an arranger keyboard to interpret those chords properly.
When we are playing from a lead sheet we don’t have the luxury of knowing what was intended with the original composition. All we see is a single note melody line with some chord symbols at the top. When we see one of those “rootless” chords it creates a dilemma. If we have a left voice selected and worse yet, if we are using Technichord, we can’t play a C7 chord (for a C7-9) because we miss the “sound” that we want. So, we play a diminished chord, which the arranger keyboard can understand. We get a sound that is acceptable to most of us even though it is technically incorrect. And, the resulting bass line does not have the root note in it. That is the primary reason that I brought this subject up.

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#68326 - 03/18/09 10:43 AM Re: Dimished Chords
bruno123 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 3276
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
Bob,
The first musical instrument was a flute, putting drums aside. The flute maker made holes so that you would be able to change the note as you are blowing. He continued drilling the holes in different places until it sounded good to his EAR, then the created written music so we would understand what the flute was playing. Note, the ear came first.

Years back you would not have been popular if you played a Bb note against a G chord, it was a no, no. The jazz musician and the men in the black bands were led by what they felt, and that is what music is all about. That is like playing a G major chord while the other guy is playing Gm chord. Wow, how could that work? Without that Bb there would not be Jazz, Dixie, or Rock and Roll music. What a joy to play your instrument with less rules and more freedom. None of this applies to the classical musician they must played what they read.

Having said all that I feel it is a good idea to bring different subjects that deal with our keyboards and our music – But let no person feel as though they have THE answer, what we have is how opinions, what we have chosen to OUR fact. No limitations hear, I would like to hear it all.

This forum is about our keyboards but it is equally about sharing and having a place to go to be connected let no one destroy that, myself included.

A true C7-9 chord does not change the C note to a C# note. It takes the 9th note of the scale and makes a half step lower. Because we do not have enough fingers most will change the C to C#, then we call it a C7-9 chord but in reality without the C note, the root, we are now playing a diminished chord, C# dim. None of this applies to two hand playing, or bass pedals.

I would love to see a thread on chord progressions, it is important to a player who looks for freedom and understanding song structure. It also helps memorization of songs.

The sun is strong here in Florida today, nice, , John C.

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#68327 - 03/18/09 11:00 AM Re: Dimished Chords
kn7 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/05
Posts: 129
Well, gee, Bill – a.k.a. Willum! Sorry that I bruised your ego and opened up your conscience. While I am on you, you have stated more than once on the forum that you are primarily a professional drummer and not a keyboardist. Listening to a few of your songs, I never heard any drumming that sounded particularly interesting. To be a good drummer, one has to do interesting nuances. Doing just a boom kish on every measure doesn’t cut it. I am not a drummer but I damn well know what a good drummer does and I do it in my variations, which are all mine.

Rog, whether you were being facetious or not, I AM talented and have had a successful career to prove it. In New York, I was nicknamed, “Great Scott.” I have also been blessed with an excellent voice. I am going to be kind to you people and let you hear one song only, “Is You Is or Is You Ain’t My Baby” to know what can really be done with a KN7000. Notice how the instruments come alive because of their being improved in Sound Memory and using Drum User Kit. Of course, mentioning Drum User Kit loses everyone. Bill, I suggest you listen carefully to the drumming. This is what drumming is about. Also, be aware of the fine vocal rendition I give this old standard. After listening to it, you can grit you teeth with a set vinegar look on you faces and refuse to like it.
http://www.garnetrecords.com/isyouis.wma

Scott

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#68328 - 03/18/09 12:07 PM Re: Dimished Chords
Bob Hendershot Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/99
Posts: 924
Loc: Johnson City, TN USA
"A true C7-9 chord does not change the C note to a C# note. It takes the 9th note of the scale and makes a half step lower. Because we do not have enough fingers most will change the C to C#, then we call it a C7-9 chord but in reality without the C note, the root, we are now playing a diminished chord, C# dim."

Thanks John. I agree with that totally. I just don't know how to play it with the KN7000 unless I am in the pianist mode. I don't want to use the pianist mode because I would have to give up the left hand voice(s) and the ability to affect the rhythm with the left hand. I am only suggesting that there is little recourse other than to play a rootless chord with the accepted fingering for that chord and hope that the keyboard comes close to an acceptable bass line. In the case of a C7-9, that results in a diminished chord. And, I believe with all other rootless chords the root note in the bass line would be missing. I don’t like to play with sequences because that ties me down to a fixed way to play the song and I like the freedom to change the way I play a song each time.

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#68329 - 03/18/09 05:50 PM Re: Dimished Chords
Audrey Turner Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/19/02
Posts: 1084
Loc: Cambridge, Cambs, England
KN7

I cannot let your comments go by without replying with my own. Firstly I am incensed by your implication that everyone on this Forum are 'idiots' Whilst I am not a professional by any means, over the years I have learned a great deal from these dear friendly people who have given their help generously and freely and I will not stand by and have you imply that they neither want to, or even cannot, improve their playing. Many, myself included, have spent literally hours altering sounds and rhythms to suit their style of playing. I am first and foremost a pianist and whilst the piano will always be my first love, playing it now 'pales' in comparison to what can be achieved on the keyboard. The fact that you do not appear to know this, makes me wonder whether you have ever tried 'tweaking' the keyboard yourself. My late brother-in-law was always telling me that I wasn't a 'real musician' because I used the APC, floppies, SD cards etc., and he didn't even play.... my reply to him was "it takes a 'genius' to be able to play modern keyboards because of the technology involved. Maybe you don't have that sort of brain"

Like Bill says, "if you cannot be constructive in your comments", don't bother making them.

Audrey

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#68330 - 03/19/09 03:14 AM Re: Dimished Chords
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
NSR, KN7, 'Great Scott', Mister Super EGO or whatever you are calling yourself now - you really ought to get your facts straight, before you make comments on the forum. I have never claimed to be a 'Professional' drummer, on this forum or anywhere else and I challenge you to prove otherwise! Furthermore, playing a 'Real' drumkit is totally different to laying down a drum track in an arranger keyboard.

Unlike yourself, I do not claim that my performances on the KN7000 are anything but those of an amateur. Many others seem to like what I produce and that's good enough for me.

As you suggested, I have listened to your effort and find nothing spectacular or even remotely interesting in the drum part or in your self quoted 'fine vocal rendition'.
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#68331 - 03/19/09 03:20 AM Re: Dimished Chords
The Saint Offline
Member

Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 543
Loc: Sydney Australia
NOW I am disappointed.....this topic has started to become personal for no justifiable reason.
Yes, we all play at different levels,but my original point was that surely we all try to be that little bit better.
Elizabeth, golf is much like music, we do not play to get worse, we play to improve, and the more we play the more we improve, no matter how slightly. Quote "you tweak and tweak the sounds to make them better."
I will never achieve the ability I seek, but I keep trying, by learning something new.
That was my reason for joining this forum, to learn, AND GUESS WHAT, from this topic, I have learnt that for nearly 30 years I thought a Dim. chord was 4 notes, because that was what I was told in my early organ days, now I know that the 4th note I play makes it a Dim 7th chord. I still prefer the 4 notes but that's me.
As far as the Bass line is concerned, as an exercise I tried Jazz Combo with piano on L1, and as I muted some of the voices the Bass line became clearer, and it changed (ever so slightly)when I changed the L1 chord by one note. So it does change, but with APC on you might not hear it.
Audrey, your B/I/Law is not correct ,you are. Ittakes a lot of learning to get the APC balanced, and let's face it, where can you get a one-man band that sounds so good on just one instrument.
You will be pleased to know that when I first had my KN5, The Gardener made the comment..."It even makes you sound good".
Scott, in short ,I enjoyed listening to your rendition,and I wish I could play and sing as well as you, but "excellent",....no, not yet.
Finally guys, keep the personal insults for another forum, and let us remain friendly and helpful to each other. Life is too short to be putting other people down, and if my contribution came across that way, it certainly was never my intention, only to encourage others to try to be that little bit better every time they play.
As Samual Johnston once said, "Music is the only sensual vice without pleasure".
End of another lesson
Ray

------------------
Ray The Saint
_________________________
Ray The Saint

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#68332 - 03/19/09 12:52 PM Re: Dimished Chords
bruno123 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 3276
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
Mr. KN7 Quote
Bill, I suggest you listen carefully to the drumming. This is what drumming is about. Also, be aware of the fine vocal rendition I give this old standard. After listening to it, you can grit you teeth with a set vinegar look on you faces and refuse to like it.

I am not sure how to say this but when you use words like, “fine vocal rendition”, or “what drumming is all about”, you leave the listener with expectations. My intention is not to discredit but to reply to these statements.
I did enjoy the song but I would place it as a 5 or 6 on a scale from one to ten, no more.

If the above was posted in a humble friendly manner I would have enjoyed the song much more.

It took me a few days before I knew I had to respond here.

As far as you go Bill, I have enjoyed your site, the help you have offered and your music.

John C.

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