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#68322 - 03/17/09 10:07 PM Re: Dimished Chords
kn7 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/05
Posts: 129
It truly amazes me how far (nowhere) you members of this forum have advanced in knowing anything about harmony, learning how to play chords when you all have the chord diagram included with your keyboard. This is one of the reasons why I dropped out of this forum. Few learn anything. Sure, you learn how to use Jukebox to download Midi that someone else has created and have learned some of the technical buttons to push in order to do one thing or another but you all have had a wonderful opportunity to be better musicians because of the fine capabilities that the Technics keyboards have given you through many years. Most of you have advanced to the later models as they came out and still know little about really knowing how to play the keyboard. Reading Hendershot’s post about diminished chords, I almost busted a gut laughing at everyone’s posts. You people are a riot! Talk about blind leading the blind! To begin with, Bob, your stating C#,E, G and Bb is a C7-9 chord. It is a C# diminish chord and nothing more. The so-called C7-9 diminish that you are actually referring to is a C7-b9. (C#,E,G,Bb and C in the bass) That is accomplished by playing the root note C along with C#,E, G and Bb. Of course, if any of you had the gumption to turn on your keyboard and put it in PIANIST MODE, you could figure out what makes one chord different from the other. The screen in the keyboard shows exactly the chord you are playing.

Most of you still don’t get it that the pre-set styles in the keyboard will not respond correctly in the bass when playing any decent harmony. These styles are created to SELL THE INSTRUMENT. They sort of sound good if you play a chord and let it run wild, much like a mouse after a piece of cheese. Actually using it in a song becomes another matter. I have mentioned over the years several times trying to encourage you to do your own bass patterns but no, you would rather suffer with what is in the keyboard or depend on someone else to send you something they created. Even if you don’t know how to arrange in COMPOSER, at least put one of your styles in COMPOSER that you use and change the bass line. Experiment! A bass line with several notes played in a measure will create nothing but discord harmony. This is why Audrey’s music doesn’t sound right at times. This goes for the rest of you, as well. Your bass notes should be primarily within a C chord by using C, E or G. I am talking about being in COMPOSER and composing in the key of C. None of what I have said will do any good because you are off on your own ‘stumbling gaily along’ playing, having fun but not understanding why things don’t always sound very good. Don’t blame the keyboard. It is responding correctly for whatever bass notes are in the pre-set style.

Bob, you will never get a C7-b9 using TECHNI-CHORD. However, there is a way around it and technically, you can get it if you play a C7th chord with your left hand, and play a C# with your right hand with TECHNI-CHORD on. Generally, this won’t work well when you are playing a melody line with your right hand. My point – because it can technically sound correct as a C7-b9, using it in a song is most unlikely unless the melody happens to fall on the C#.

Scott

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#68323 - 03/18/09 02:05 AM Re: Dimished Chords
RMepstead Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 1478
Loc: Wootton Bassett - Wiltshire - ...
Why be so angry when you're so talented, Scott?
Rog
_________________________
Roger M

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#68324 - 03/18/09 02:28 AM Re: Dimished Chords
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
Quote "This is one of the reasons why I dropped out of this forum"

Then why not just stay away from the forum - we can all do without your Smart-Ass, offensive remarks!
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#68325 - 03/18/09 06:53 AM Re: Dimished Chords
Bob Hendershot Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/99
Posts: 924
Loc: Johnson City, TN USA
I try not to respond to Scott Reed’s cynicism but in this case he is right from a technical standpoint. He just says it in a very repulsive way. And, it is the same thing John C and Larry G had already said.

We are talking about playing an arranger keyboard. Most of us use an arranger keyboard because it takes our limited knowledge or talent and can make it sound much better than we could otherwise play. If we didn’t feel we needed that added support we could just play a piano or a simple keyboard without all the frills like APC, etc.

Some of you may remember Scott Yee’s comments about “rootless” chords and the problems we have trying to get an arranger keyboard to interpret those chords properly.
When we are playing from a lead sheet we don’t have the luxury of knowing what was intended with the original composition. All we see is a single note melody line with some chord symbols at the top. When we see one of those “rootless” chords it creates a dilemma. If we have a left voice selected and worse yet, if we are using Technichord, we can’t play a C7 chord (for a C7-9) because we miss the “sound” that we want. So, we play a diminished chord, which the arranger keyboard can understand. We get a sound that is acceptable to most of us even though it is technically incorrect. And, the resulting bass line does not have the root note in it. That is the primary reason that I brought this subject up.

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#68326 - 03/18/09 10:43 AM Re: Dimished Chords
bruno123 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 3276
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
Bob,
The first musical instrument was a flute, putting drums aside. The flute maker made holes so that you would be able to change the note as you are blowing. He continued drilling the holes in different places until it sounded good to his EAR, then the created written music so we would understand what the flute was playing. Note, the ear came first.

Years back you would not have been popular if you played a Bb note against a G chord, it was a no, no. The jazz musician and the men in the black bands were led by what they felt, and that is what music is all about. That is like playing a G major chord while the other guy is playing Gm chord. Wow, how could that work? Without that Bb there would not be Jazz, Dixie, or Rock and Roll music. What a joy to play your instrument with less rules and more freedom. None of this applies to the classical musician they must played what they read.

Having said all that I feel it is a good idea to bring different subjects that deal with our keyboards and our music – But let no person feel as though they have THE answer, what we have is how opinions, what we have chosen to OUR fact. No limitations hear, I would like to hear it all.

This forum is about our keyboards but it is equally about sharing and having a place to go to be connected let no one destroy that, myself included.

A true C7-9 chord does not change the C note to a C# note. It takes the 9th note of the scale and makes a half step lower. Because we do not have enough fingers most will change the C to C#, then we call it a C7-9 chord but in reality without the C note, the root, we are now playing a diminished chord, C# dim. None of this applies to two hand playing, or bass pedals.

I would love to see a thread on chord progressions, it is important to a player who looks for freedom and understanding song structure. It also helps memorization of songs.

The sun is strong here in Florida today, nice, , John C.

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#68327 - 03/18/09 11:00 AM Re: Dimished Chords
kn7 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/05
Posts: 129
Well, gee, Bill – a.k.a. Willum! Sorry that I bruised your ego and opened up your conscience. While I am on you, you have stated more than once on the forum that you are primarily a professional drummer and not a keyboardist. Listening to a few of your songs, I never heard any drumming that sounded particularly interesting. To be a good drummer, one has to do interesting nuances. Doing just a boom kish on every measure doesn’t cut it. I am not a drummer but I damn well know what a good drummer does and I do it in my variations, which are all mine.

Rog, whether you were being facetious or not, I AM talented and have had a successful career to prove it. In New York, I was nicknamed, “Great Scott.” I have also been blessed with an excellent voice. I am going to be kind to you people and let you hear one song only, “Is You Is or Is You Ain’t My Baby” to know what can really be done with a KN7000. Notice how the instruments come alive because of their being improved in Sound Memory and using Drum User Kit. Of course, mentioning Drum User Kit loses everyone. Bill, I suggest you listen carefully to the drumming. This is what drumming is about. Also, be aware of the fine vocal rendition I give this old standard. After listening to it, you can grit you teeth with a set vinegar look on you faces and refuse to like it.
http://www.garnetrecords.com/isyouis.wma

Scott

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#68328 - 03/18/09 12:07 PM Re: Dimished Chords
Bob Hendershot Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/99
Posts: 924
Loc: Johnson City, TN USA
"A true C7-9 chord does not change the C note to a C# note. It takes the 9th note of the scale and makes a half step lower. Because we do not have enough fingers most will change the C to C#, then we call it a C7-9 chord but in reality without the C note, the root, we are now playing a diminished chord, C# dim."

Thanks John. I agree with that totally. I just don't know how to play it with the KN7000 unless I am in the pianist mode. I don't want to use the pianist mode because I would have to give up the left hand voice(s) and the ability to affect the rhythm with the left hand. I am only suggesting that there is little recourse other than to play a rootless chord with the accepted fingering for that chord and hope that the keyboard comes close to an acceptable bass line. In the case of a C7-9, that results in a diminished chord. And, I believe with all other rootless chords the root note in the bass line would be missing. I don’t like to play with sequences because that ties me down to a fixed way to play the song and I like the freedom to change the way I play a song each time.

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#68329 - 03/18/09 05:50 PM Re: Dimished Chords
Audrey Turner Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/19/02
Posts: 1084
Loc: Cambridge, Cambs, England
KN7

I cannot let your comments go by without replying with my own. Firstly I am incensed by your implication that everyone on this Forum are 'idiots' Whilst I am not a professional by any means, over the years I have learned a great deal from these dear friendly people who have given their help generously and freely and I will not stand by and have you imply that they neither want to, or even cannot, improve their playing. Many, myself included, have spent literally hours altering sounds and rhythms to suit their style of playing. I am first and foremost a pianist and whilst the piano will always be my first love, playing it now 'pales' in comparison to what can be achieved on the keyboard. The fact that you do not appear to know this, makes me wonder whether you have ever tried 'tweaking' the keyboard yourself. My late brother-in-law was always telling me that I wasn't a 'real musician' because I used the APC, floppies, SD cards etc., and he didn't even play.... my reply to him was "it takes a 'genius' to be able to play modern keyboards because of the technology involved. Maybe you don't have that sort of brain"

Like Bill says, "if you cannot be constructive in your comments", don't bother making them.

Audrey

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#68330 - 03/19/09 03:14 AM Re: Dimished Chords
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
NSR, KN7, 'Great Scott', Mister Super EGO or whatever you are calling yourself now - you really ought to get your facts straight, before you make comments on the forum. I have never claimed to be a 'Professional' drummer, on this forum or anywhere else and I challenge you to prove otherwise! Furthermore, playing a 'Real' drumkit is totally different to laying down a drum track in an arranger keyboard.

Unlike yourself, I do not claim that my performances on the KN7000 are anything but those of an amateur. Many others seem to like what I produce and that's good enough for me.

As you suggested, I have listened to your effort and find nothing spectacular or even remotely interesting in the drum part or in your self quoted 'fine vocal rendition'.
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#68331 - 03/19/09 03:20 AM Re: Dimished Chords
The Saint Offline
Member

Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 543
Loc: Sydney Australia
NOW I am disappointed.....this topic has started to become personal for no justifiable reason.
Yes, we all play at different levels,but my original point was that surely we all try to be that little bit better.
Elizabeth, golf is much like music, we do not play to get worse, we play to improve, and the more we play the more we improve, no matter how slightly. Quote "you tweak and tweak the sounds to make them better."
I will never achieve the ability I seek, but I keep trying, by learning something new.
That was my reason for joining this forum, to learn, AND GUESS WHAT, from this topic, I have learnt that for nearly 30 years I thought a Dim. chord was 4 notes, because that was what I was told in my early organ days, now I know that the 4th note I play makes it a Dim 7th chord. I still prefer the 4 notes but that's me.
As far as the Bass line is concerned, as an exercise I tried Jazz Combo with piano on L1, and as I muted some of the voices the Bass line became clearer, and it changed (ever so slightly)when I changed the L1 chord by one note. So it does change, but with APC on you might not hear it.
Audrey, your B/I/Law is not correct ,you are. Ittakes a lot of learning to get the APC balanced, and let's face it, where can you get a one-man band that sounds so good on just one instrument.
You will be pleased to know that when I first had my KN5, The Gardener made the comment..."It even makes you sound good".
Scott, in short ,I enjoyed listening to your rendition,and I wish I could play and sing as well as you, but "excellent",....no, not yet.
Finally guys, keep the personal insults for another forum, and let us remain friendly and helpful to each other. Life is too short to be putting other people down, and if my contribution came across that way, it certainly was never my intention, only to encourage others to try to be that little bit better every time they play.
As Samual Johnston once said, "Music is the only sensual vice without pleasure".
End of another lesson
Ray

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Ray The Saint
_________________________
Ray The Saint

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