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#68302 - 03/16/09 09:09 AM Re: Dimished Chords
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
Thanks for that Bob - I wonder why that chord isn't called C7b9 - maybe it is also referred to as that, as an alternative. For instance, I often see chords written as C7b5 but haven't come across C7-5......
As you say, it sounds just like a diminished(7th) chord and the KN7000 treats it as such, which is not surprising since the notes are actually a C#dim7. (or Edim7 or Gdim7 or A#dim7). Having had a play around with several different styles on my KN7000, the APC Bass notes just seem to play some or all of the notes within the diminished(7th) chord, as I would expect. The order in which they are played depends on the inversion of the chord. If I was composing a Bass track, I would normally do the same, since any other notes seem to be discordant.

Another peculiarity of the KN7000 is that if you just play a diminished triad - say C,D#,F# - the KN7000 treats this as Cmb5 (C minor flat5) - which I suppose it is - but if you add the 'A' on top, which technically makes it a C diminished 7th, the display then shows the chord as a C dim. Personally, if I see a chord sequence which includes a diminished chord, I always play a diminished 7th, since it sounds better to my ear............
In my experience, diminished chords on guitar always use the 4 notes and technically are Dim7th chords - any comments on that point John C. ?
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#68303 - 03/16/09 10:24 AM Re: Dimished Chords
Bob Hendershot Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/99
Posts: 924
Loc: Johnson City, TN USA
"APC Bass notes just seem to play some or all of the notes within the diminished(7th) chord, as I would expect. The order in which they are played depends on the inversion of the chord. If I was composing a Bass track, I would normally do the same, since any other notes seem to be discordant."

Yes, Bill. That is what I have found. And, that is why I have problems accepting the use of the root note of the chord in the bass line where a 7-9 occurs. It sounds discordant to me. I tend to want to walk the bass line toward the next chord which would usually involve a D. ie: C in the measure before the C7-9, C# in the measure with the C7-9 and a D in the next measure.

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#68304 - 03/16/09 11:43 AM Re: Dimished Chords
larry gosmeyer Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 394
Loc: La Verne, CA USA
Hi Bob,

In my case, when the music calls for a C7-9 chord, I interpret this as a C7th chord with the 9th note in the C Scale flatted.

When arranging the song I would use the C7th designation in the base "APC" track, and if I wanted to I would use the D flat note in the right hand chord if it fit the melody and if it acomplished the sound effect that I was trying to get.

To me the use of the C7-9 chord is no where close to the use of the Gdim chord as it normally appears in the progression of harmonic chords in the melody of a song.

Having said that, it is always possible to alter the usual chord progression of a song, in order to embellish the listening characteristics of the song to meet the performer or audience's desires.

Just about anything goes if it sounds good.

Just one man's opinion.

Larry Gosmeyer

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#68305 - 03/16/09 12:01 PM Re: Dimished Chords
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
I understand exactly what you mean Bob. Try this :
Select the Club Combo in the Jazz and Swing Styles, Tempo around 120 and Variation2.
Start the style and play one bar of each chord - C Major, C#dim7 (or C7-9), Dm7, G7 and repeat....... a Typical short Jazz progression or 'fill'. The Bass line in that simple sequence sounds good to me
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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#68306 - 03/16/09 12:35 PM Re: Dimished Chords
Bob Hendershot Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/99
Posts: 924
Loc: Johnson City, TN USA
"When arranging the song I would use the C7th designation in the base "APC" track"

Thanks Larry.

So, if you allow the APC bass notes to sound, you would hear the proper bass notes for the C7 chords without the -9th. It makes sense musically but doesn't seem to sound right to me when I play it. I can see how I might do it in a sequence by inserting the -9th in the right hand, but I think it is beyond my abilities to do it on the fly. And, I don't know how to do it at all if I am trying to use Technichord.

I think this is all beyond my limited knowledge . . .

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#68307 - 03/16/09 01:34 PM Re: Dimished Chords
bruno123 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 3288
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
Most guitar players, if they have gone a bit below the surface, have a good understanding of chords and chord progressions.
1-Piano player -- Ten fingers
2-Organ players – Ten Fingers and One foot.
3-Our group, depending on how we are set up, will have Ten fingers or five, (Left hand).

Since a 13th chord has seven notes (1 3 5 b7 9 11 13) the players who have Ten fingers can, but do not, use all 13 notes. As a guitar player I can only play 6 notes having only six strings.

The question; --- Which ones shall I play?

1—Root – It is important. It set the foundation of the chord.
III – The third -- It is very important, it tells us that the chord is major minor.
5 – The fifth -- Not very important
bV7 – Flatted seventh – The seventh tells us about the key we are in or going to. C Maj7 is part of the key of C major. C7, sometimes refers to as C dominate 7th, belongs to the key of F Major. So C7 and Cmaj7 are very different.
9 – The ninth -- A tone for an effect
11 – The Eleventh – Also a tone for effect
13 – The Thirteenth – Also a tone for effect

I need the 3rd, and the 7th, and possibly the root, and then the color tone. The color tone is the tones are the 9 11, and 13th. For a G13th chord I play;
G B F E, G = the root B = the third F = the b7th E = the 13th.

Larry mentioned, chords in both hands. A different game, more flexibility, a far better opportunity to voice a better chord. Left hand plays the C7 chord. C, E, G, Bb, and the right hand can add color tones, or leading tones.

Please excuse me, this is a bit long, when I get into this subject I lose myself. Somewhere in the KN7000 you can select having the chord play only the root. (I think, it’s been a long time)

John C.

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#68308 - 03/16/09 04:38 PM Re: Dimished Chords
Audrey Turner Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/19/02
Posts: 1084
Loc: Cambridge, Cambs, England
Yes John, that is what I was saying.

I use piano chords with the BASS NOTE faciliy set to 'On' The KN7 then uses my bottom note 'C' and sorts it out. There are of course several inversions shown in the Chord Finder section of the KN7. When I get a discordant sound, I just move a finger or two until I think it sounds right. I guess I'll never become famous but it is fun to play nevetheless.

Audrey

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#68309 - 03/16/09 05:07 PM Re: Dimished Chords
Bob Hendershot Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/99
Posts: 924
Loc: Johnson City, TN USA
Oh Well . . .

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#68310 - 03/16/09 05:12 PM Re: Dimished Chords
bruno123 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 3288
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
Audrey,
I have to smile when I read, “I just move a finger or two” great!
Chet Atkins replied when asked if he could read music, “Not enough to hurt my playing”, so very true.

The end product is how it sounds and it sounds like you’re there.

John C.

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#68311 - 03/16/09 06:42 PM Re: Dimished Chords
Bob Hendershot Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/99
Posts: 924
Loc: Johnson City, TN USA
"The end product is how it sounds"

Perfect! I knew I would learn something with this thread!

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