SYNTH ZONE
Visit The Bar For Casual Discussion
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
#68292 - 03/15/09 03:39 PM Dimished Chords
Bob Hendershot Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/99
Posts: 924
Loc: Johnson City, TN USA
Several posts in another thread talked about diminished chords. This is an interesting issue for some of you music theorists. Often in modern lead sheets you come across a chord with a 7-9 identifier. For example a C7-9 is usually played as C#,E, G and Bb and the general rule when you are figuring out the fingering on the fly is to raise the root note of a seventh chord by one semitone. And, the sound of a 7-9 chord is the same as a diminished chord. But, that leaves you with a C family chord with no C. Most arranger keyboards would interpret that fingering to be a C#dim chord.

The question is: Assume you are playing a bass line with alternating root and fifth notes. What bass notes would you play with a C7-9 chord? I would play a C# and G but have no idea what is right . . .

Top
#68293 - 03/15/09 03:41 PM Re: Dimished Chords
Bob Hendershot Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/99
Posts: 924
Loc: Johnson City, TN USA
Must be a dumb question . . . Can't even spell diminished right in the subject of the thread . . .

Top
#68294 - 03/15/09 05:27 PM Re: Dimished Chords
Audrey Turner Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/19/02
Posts: 1080
Loc: Cambridge, Cambs, England
Hello Bob,

I was taught the 'piano' chords which I use to this day on my KN7 with the BASS NOTE set to 'On'. This clever keyboard sorts out the relevant rhythm by using my bass note as a guide whatever it is, so to be honest I wouldn't know whether I'm using a diminished chord or not but what I do know is, without the 'BASS NOTE' activated, my 'piano' chords sometimes clash with the style I'm using making the whole thing sound discordant.

I really must learn to use the correct keyboard chords. Old habits die hard I'm afraid - but I get away with it - most of the time that is.

Audrey

Top
#68295 - 03/15/09 06:23 PM Re: Dimished Chords
bruno123 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 3204
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
Bob,
What you are saying is correct Ė a C7-9 with a C# bass note, not good. Try the inversions of the C7-9 chord the keyboard should be calling for different bass notes according to the inversion.

And thatís a guess, John C.

Top
#68296 - 03/15/09 07:12 PM Re: Dimished Chords
Bob Hendershot Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/99
Posts: 924
Loc: Johnson City, TN USA
Yes, John, I agree. I usually play a C7-9 with the G on the bottom which results in a Gdim chord as far as the KN7000 keyboard is concerned. The inversion that you use affects the bass line of the APC part with an arranger. I'm really trying to get at the proper way to interpret a 7-9 chord as it relates to a bass line. For example, if you were playing a piano, what bass notes would you play.

Top
#68297 - 03/16/09 04:07 AM Re: Dimished Chords
bruno123 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 3204
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
Bob,
Piano and organ players will use the root in many cases. Many times these players will use a base line either chromatic or in 4th and 5th to tell a story, itís the beautiful part of those instruments. Itís my opinion that our styles sound mechanical for that very reason, we have a boring base line.

I have used piano music (Both staves) to make a sequence using the written base line (The left hand) and the sequence was anything but boring. Drums are acceptable in the styles, but bass is the heart of music, it can change the mood of any song. In my guitar and piano playing I try to give the bass lines special attention. The melody is telling a story, the chords tell another, and the bass complements it all.

John C.

Top
#68298 - 03/16/09 04:16 AM Re: Dimished Chords
bruno123 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 3204
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
Listen to contemporary music, the bass dominates. Most sound systems have a sub-woofer -- the main reason to emphasize the bass. When I moved to Yamaha the first thing I had to work on was the bass sound it was right up front, I do not want that with Big Band music. (30ís and 40ís music)

When I had the KN7000 I added a small sub-woofer below the keyboard and the sound was complete to my ears.

John C.

Top
#68299 - 03/16/09 04:39 AM Re: Dimished Chords
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
Hi Bob,
As you know, I don't claim to know much about music theory but you have me a little confused Surely a C7-9 chord would include a 'D' not a C# since D is the 9th note of a C scale. If I was to play a C7-9 then the notes I would expect to play would be C,E,G Bb and D. Since that's a bit of a handful, I would drop the low C and just play E,G,Bb and D, which produces much the same sound.
However, the KN7000 interprets this combination of keys as Em7b5 which I suppose it is! - quite a chords having 2 possible names........
Using my unorthodox method of fingering in my left hand, I could include a 'C' by bridging the upper 'C' and 'D' with my thumb!!
If a C# is included within the chord, surely this would indicate a 'b9' (flat 9th) ?? rather than a '9th', or have I got this completely wrong?

Just had another thought - maybe the '-9' part of the name is another way of describing a flat 9th? in which case that would account for the C#
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

Top
#68300 - 03/16/09 04:48 AM Re: Dimished Chords
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
Hi John,
I totally agree with you about the importance of the Bass part in a style or sequence. The Bass line is the root on which the whole sound is built. It needn't be totally dominant and loud - as is often the case with some of the modern 'music', but it has to have the right 'feel'.
It is one of the main reasons why I spend so much time building my own styles, or include a totally separate bass track, in a sequence.
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

Top
#68301 - 03/16/09 06:21 AM Re: Dimished Chords
Bob Hendershot Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/99
Posts: 924
Loc: Johnson City, TN USA
"Just had another thought - maybe the '-9' part of the name is another way of describing a flat 9th?"

That's precisely it, Bill. It is a flatted 9th. If you played a D it would be a C7add9 chord. A 7-9 chord is really a diminished chord in the way that it sounds and the way it is used.

I agree with you John. But I am still groping for the correct way to play a bass line with a 7-9 chord. Are you saying that for a C7-9 chord, a "C" in the bass line is correct instead of a C#? The inversion that is used for the chord would determine what bass notes were chosen by an arranger keyboard for the APC part. I'm not all that sure that an arranger can get it right for the bass.

Top
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 >

Moderator:  Admin 



Help keep Synth Zone Online