SYNTH ZONE
Visit The Bar For Casual Discussion
Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3
Topic Options
#6699 - 09/26/05 03:58 PM Re: No REASON for hardware anymore?
Sheriff Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 965
Loc: Frankfurt, Hessen, Germany
ED!!! I'm not only playing space rock!!!
I did many things since 1982 when I started my musical carriere with playing guitar...

I only told my opinion to Pierry's topic question. I need my hardware gear and I'm only looking for more hardware gear. I'm not really interested in softsynths because I worked more than ten years on a computer screen and hated it. But more than this I hated all software which came with Windows because of its bad user interfaces. All things that I hate by working with computers are overflowing modern computer systems.
Even Macs are not that what they were one or two years ago. Also the things that you told me about Tiger OS are not really inviting me to work with Mac OS.

No, I like to play real hardware. Maybe the world will play SIM MUSIC in a few years but I'll still rock the places with real instruments...
Don't know what you wanna do? It's your choice...
Best regards, Danny

[This message has been edited by Sheriff (edited 09-26-2005).]
_________________________
Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

Top
#6700 - 09/26/05 06:13 PM Re: No REASON for hardware anymore?
3351 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/17/03
Posts: 1194
Loc: Toronto, Canada.
Sheriff,
Chil!!!
Surely you don't just write in rock minour. You also write in rock major. LOL

I do not know why you fail to recognize that recording at high bit rates leads to better results. A/D conversion has evolved a great deal since Atari Falcons were discontinued. Recording with 24 bit converters and even mastering is better. whatever it gets dithered to wen recorded to a CD is a different story. The results are still better.
Mathematics aren't the only factor here.
I'm not sure as to what you actually mean by me waisting hard drive space because I've got just over 700Gb of it total. Even if I get very sloppy with recording and don't edit and don't trancate the files I stil use up a fraction of all the space that I've got available to me. Even if I had just half of what I've got it's way more than enough. In fact most of my work gets backed up to DVDs (that's after I usually cut out the bits that do not end up being used on the actual recording).
OR CD's for that matter.

Another thing that you keep looking away from is sample memory. It will actually cost you some astronomical amounts of $$$ to get enough hardware to be able to load several gigabytes of samples. In most cases it will be impossible to do so with hardware. Software does it on a fly.

I don't know what you mean by so many additional drivers and hardware components needed to run soft synths. All one really needs is a USB MIDi controller, an external sound card and that's it.

Since I haven't used PC and Windows for music I really have nothing to say about them. I only use Macs. They work. My G4 upstairs is hooked up to an EDIROL FA 101 firewire interface and it doesn't require any additional drivers. You just plug it in. It uses Apple audio drivers and since MAc OS X is designed especially for music and graphics there is no latency issues or any issues actually. You plug-in the card and you use it. It comes with it's own MIDI port. Plug in and go setup.

No you do not have any real first hand experience of using software synths on a computer that works. Rather, you have a really crappy second hand experience of using your friend's system which doesn't function that well if I understood correctly. It is really up to your friend to complain about it or upgrade his system to something better. There are a lot of soft synth users in this forum and they do not complain. There is nothing to complain about. If things are setup properly and you have all the appropriate components installed DAW and soft synths work without any problems. Surely there are issues. But that is mainly because things have advanced quite a bit since the times of Atari Falcon systems and naturally got more complicated.

Yes, it will cost as much and may be a little more to get a decent computer setup but you will be able to do more than hardware can offer. Read threads in this forum. Ask people who use soft synths.

-ED-

[This message has been edited by 3351 (edited 09-27-2005).]
_________________________
A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.
- - - Oscar Wilde

Top
#6701 - 09/26/05 08:33 PM Re: No REASON for hardware anymore?
Tim_S Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/24/03
Posts: 22
Loc: Christiana,PA,USA
Heres my opinion,and its just that, an opinion,but it is based on experience with both hardware and software synths.
They are both great. As with any new technology there have been growing pains with soft synths in the past,but that is largely in the past. I know of some class pro acts that use software synths in live performance with thousands of people.They have gravitated this way becuse it has cut down on carrying so much heavy gear on the road. They have an extra computer on hand all loaded up and ready to go just like the big acts had extra synths on hand years ago.
I think that if Rick Wakeman would have had software synths back in his heyday he would have used the heck out of them.They all played the Prophet 5 and korg polys(and others) because thats all there was and it was cutting edge at the time.Noone had Abelton or Reason to play with.
Maybe you can tell the difference between the two but I honestly cant tell on the good emulations.
Have you heard about the Panasonic toughbook? This computer is the one used by the military and police forces.If your afraid you might damage your laptop check that computer out,it will probably withstand twice what the average pro synth will. I have velcro holding my Averatec on the controller pretty good and have had no problems.
Don't get me wrong,I also love hardware,but honestly I can do more for less money with software synths.As someone has already mentioned,most "hardware" synths are just a midi controller with a small OS and some sounds to be recalled from ROM.So they are just software synths themselves.
One big issue right now is that I think the big synth hardware manufacturers are scared to death of them because they can import sounds from anything and sound like anything for less money.
Seeing as how most all of us in this day and age depend on a microprocessor and OS for just about everything,your car,your heating system,your paycheck.......and on it goes. The argument that somehow laptops and software synths are more falureprone is hard to buy.
_________________________
Tim

Top
#6702 - 09/27/05 10:11 PM Re: No REASON for hardware anymore?
Sheriff Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 965
Loc: Frankfurt, Hessen, Germany
Quote:
Originally posted by 3351:
I do not know why you fail to recognize that recording at high bit rates leads to better results. A/D conversion has evolved a great deal since Atari Falcons were discontinued. Recording with 24 bit converters and even mastering is better.

Maybe my ears are too bad, maybe I'm deaf but, I can't really say that 24bit rates are better than 16bit rates. Yes, I hear a difference between them both but I can't really say which is better. From my feeling, I hear what I've played when listening to a 16bit recorded wave. Sometimes, if I'm listening to a 24bit wave I think I hear much more high frequency noise and low frequency flutter/jitter/sludge (don't know wether you understand me or not ).
So, I have to decide for my own what's better to handle. 16bit or 24bit, 44.1kHz or 96/192kHz, 10MB per one minute stereo sample or 30/60MB per one minute stereo sample. Well, you know my decision! Disc space is rare and expensive...

Quote:
Originally posted by 3351:
whatever it gets dithered to wen recorded to a CD is a different story. The results are still better.

If I don't need more than 16bit rates then I don't have the problem to minimize the recording for a CD...
I don't wanna make it more complicated then it really is. Remember, in earlier days we only needed to push a record and a stop button...and the recording was made on tape...
Oh man, we lost sooo much comfort...

The thing is: I'm a musician and I want to play my instruments but I don't want to waiste my time in front of a computer screen. I made music with a computer more than 10 years now...I'm burned out!!!

Today I would really like to give it away. If anyone is ready to turn the knobs for me then I could change back to music again...*LOL*

10 years ago I still thought: "Cool! The music instrument market doesn't share the sucking policy of the other concerns!" Unfortunately things have changed! If I'm visiting my local music dealer then I'm always laughing because their drum center is so full with hardware that you can't really move through, their guitar center is so full that you need sun glases to not get blinded by the light reflections of sooo many beautiful guitars but...are you ready for this...their keyboard center is empty!!!
I don't see any keyboard there - only DJ mixers with up to 4 channels and CD scratching ability...*LOL*...and software packs for Windows or Mac OS...*LOL*

I think the time of new and innovative sounds has ended now. Who is creating new real oscillators and hardware filters? The time of synth emulations will soon be over because there won't be any new synths to get an emulation from.

Also, every PC studio production I've ever heard sounded weak and weird to me. So, it's natural for me (as a musician) that I refuse to use such LoFi stuff unless the song requires it. My K2000 is still able to overtrump modern synth emulations or softsynths because of its fantastic filters and oscillators. The result is always convincing...at least for me... [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img]

Oh, by the way, I know that there's a Kurzweil softsynth emulation for Windows but...haha...why should I try to get and run an emulation if I'm having the original here??? [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/wink.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by Sheriff (edited 09-27-2005).]
_________________________
Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

Top
#6703 - 09/28/05 08:17 AM Re: No REASON for hardware anymore?
3351 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/17/03
Posts: 1194
Loc: Toronto, Canada.
Hate to say this and you will probably kick me for doing it but you really come across as being slightly... jealous???
So you cannot afford a Mac right now. So you can't record at 24 bit but why kick at it? For some kind of therapeutic purposes?

You have no real argument either that you don't like software. Actually because of my computer I now don't have to spend and waist my time loading,saving,using magnification glass to just kill my back sitting in front of hardware modules trying to do what I can basically do with just one or two soft synths.

There is some hardware that nobody! NOBODY! Will ever take away from me or tell me that it's old or whatever. I have my addictions too. DX/TX stuff and my other FM/FOrmant?Additive toys are staying in my studio - period. Same with my guitars. Even if they come out with some magical virtual plug-in that replaces my Bass, Harmonica and 15 guitars you will still find me using the real thing.
Sure, Yeah, Yeah. I know . That is how you feel about your old Atari and K2000. But why kick at soft synths? Just because you can't afford them?
Soft synths are awesome. They are big help in the studio. Pain in the ass sometimes but usually fixed with updates.
It hurts me and insults me to see someone like yourself say sarcastic and unjust things about something that I love using and appreciate.

And NO I will keep recording at 196k 24-bit since hard drive space on this side of the street is dirt cheap and blank CDs come in box of 50 for less than a price of a DAT tape.

Sure, I will let you have your last word if that's how you want it. But whatever you say just comes across as some type of jealousy or even immaturity. Of coarse you always have my benefit of the doubt. Therefore if I am wrong on this one feel free to get my apology.

Later Dan,

-ED-
_________________________
A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.
- - - Oscar Wilde

Top
#6704 - 09/28/05 06:17 PM Re: No REASON for hardware anymore?
Sheriff Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 965
Loc: Frankfurt, Hessen, Germany
Okay, okay!!!

I'm not a soft- and hardware engineer, I'm not a composer, I'm not a musician, I'm not a sound engineer, I'm not a computer freak, I've no answer about physics and sounds, I'm deaf and blind...
Who am I? I'm nobody...
Okay, I'm not allowed to have my own opinions and experiences. So, I go and rock myself...
_________________________
Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

Top
#6705 - 09/28/05 07:47 PM Re: No REASON for hardware anymore?
Tim_S Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/24/03
Posts: 22
Loc: Christiana,PA,USA
It sounds like we maybe need to start another thread on the pros and cons of 24 over 16 bit recording.Sometimes I am inclined to think the hype over 24 bit sounds like something a salesman of a 24 bit machine would say. Scientifically speaking 24 bit resolution is thousands of times better than 16 bit,actually audible difference to the human ear is small and probably not noticed on a lot of source material(please dont tell me I'm jealous )
24 bit is becoming the norm with 16 bit recorders still selling in personal studio recorders. If you play a hardware synth chances are you are playing 16 bit or less.
The general public has largely embraced the Mp3. That means the general public is happy with a sound inferior to 16 bit. A lot of commercial concerns rejected the Mp3 to start with because it was deemed unsuitable in audio quality and therefore unsuitable as a sales medium for songs.Steve Jobs showed us this is not the case(and made lots of money).
You can shoot me in the fanny on this if you want to but I have to mostly agree with Sheriff. For the web and CD production if you already have an investment in good 16 bit equiptment keep using it and don't look back. If you are investing in new gear,what the heck, get 24 bit stuff because it might sometimes make a subtle difference and because it will make you feel better.
_________________________
Tim

Top
#6706 - 09/29/05 05:58 AM Re: No REASON for hardware anymore?
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
I do use the PC platform guys, and my experience with it is that it has been quite reliable, especially running XP. Of couse it is very helpful to remove as many non essential Windows and add on apps that aren't related to music production as possible, and staying off the 'net with a dedicated machine is also a good idea.

I won't get much into the Mac vs PC debate. Years ago I thought Mac was superior vs PC, and perhaps it may still be, but my apps are all PC based and I'm just fine with it. I can record 24 / 192 with no hassle at all. Yes there are reasons for recording and mixing down at higher rates. Any studio worth their salt does this. I probably cannot explain properly in the correct technical jargon why, but basically it comes down to something like bitrate losses ( not true 44 / 16 ) when you mix multiple files into a single file. Atari.... ohh the memories. I still have a soft spot for progs like "M", FMC2, ludwig, Autobusk, Grid Sequencer.. I could go on and on... I even mess with that stuff now and then, mostly for nostalgia, via the virtual Atari Emulator for PC "Steem"

As far as hardware vs software. No right or wrong answer as far as I'm concerned. Both are valid and viable ways to work. As for me, I'd love to have a real CS80, Prophet5, Waldorf Ppg, Moog Modular, etc ( there are plenty more ) in my studio here, but space wouldn't permit all of those. Even if it did, many of these are quite old now and the thought of having to repair them ( and at some point they'd likely all need repair ) is almost mind boggling. so.. my only "hardware" analog is the AN150 card that resides inside my Motif ES... for now anyway. I am always looking at vintage beasts as they become available and I do plan to add a real one to the studio at some point. Unless it's built like a tank though ala the CS80 ( and then it will be too heavy anyway ) I'll still gig happily wiyth my laptop full of softsynths / effects and my controller.

I agree that the same softsynths won't always sound the same on different soundcards, but ya know what ? The same two moog modulars wired up exactly the same won't always sound exactly alike either, especially as they age. The electronics and components themselves that were used in the older analogs dictate this, and I have seen ( heard ) it for myself. Ahh the beauty of true analog.....

AJ
_________________________
AJ

Top
#6707 - 09/29/05 06:58 AM Re: No REASON for hardware anymore?
3351 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/17/03
Posts: 1194
Loc: Toronto, Canada.
Well first of all I did not call anybody jealous and merely hinted at the fact that whatever is being said comes across as some kind of jealousy and that's it. Perhaps there is another way of saying what I meant to say but I guess at the moment nothing else came to mind. I'm sorry if I've insulted anyone.

Now, I have to totally agree with everything that AJ just said because often times I notice AJ saying exactly what I had in mind but being a nasty character I am I don't express it in ways that some find acceptable.
I just want to add something.
Software samplers are better. Why? Well, I've said it many times so either check the archives people or just read a few posts above this one. Yet, lots of people still use hardware samplers and it seems to work for them just fine. Although I don't see them post odd statements about 32 or 64 megs piano samples being as good as Steinberg's "The Grand" and Ilio's "ivory". Or Kurzwell K2000 being just as powerful of a sampler as NI Kontakt or EXS 24 because it uses the same .wav file format or whatever

24 bit 196k. If you can use it and have enough hard disk space (as well as 20 bucks for a box of 50 CDs or a bunch of DVDs for backups) use it and enjoy.

Otherwise stay tuned at 44.1. It's much better than 15k tapes. It is indeed a standard. But don't mix up not having a choice with not needing something.
If you use 44.1 16 bit by choice it is your choice and yours alone. You get no critique from me.

-ED-

[This message has been edited by 3351 (edited 09-29-2005).]
_________________________
A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.
- - - Oscar Wilde

Top
#6708 - 09/30/05 08:08 PM Re: No REASON for hardware anymore?
Sheriff Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 965
Loc: Frankfurt, Hessen, Germany
Quote:
Originally posted by Bluezplayer:
...I even mess with that stuff now and then, mostly for nostalgia, via the virtual Atari Emulator for PC "Steem"...

Unfortunately there's no Falcon emulation but Aranym for Linux, and Aranym isn't really stabil or suitable for Cubase Audio. So, I'll still have to use my original hardware...

It's still amazing me...up to 16/50 samples, no midi latency and realtime mp3 decoding...all with a DSP @32MHz and a CPU at 16MHz...this was a real technical invention, guys!!!
_________________________
Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

Top
Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3

Moderator:  Admin 



Help keep Synth Zone Online