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#6689 - 09/25/05 05:24 AM Re: No REASON for hardware anymore?
Tim_S Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/24/03
Posts: 22
Loc: Christiana,PA,USA
To answer your question second question.I have heard unconfirmed reports that the latency in a Mac laptop is good enough to play software synth without a soundcard. I use an averatec laptop and the echo indego PCMIA card.This card has 24 bit sound and even capability to record two tracks if need be.
As to your first question,I think thats one of the beauties of software synths is that there are many ways you could achieve the same result depending on what you want to do,I heard this corny joke the other day,apparently this guy had a computer as his true love because it could be anything he wanted..........the truth is there,your computer can be just about) about anything you need it to be.
Armed with a computer,a controller,and say a prophet 5 soft synth(there is one)you could arguably do more to the sound than the origional could.
I was looking at that new Korg 8000 dollar monster out there,the KAOS.It is a really nice keyboard,but you can do most all of that with just a laptop and some good software.
_________________________
Tim

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#6690 - 09/25/05 02:58 PM Re: No REASON for hardware anymore?
evanh Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/24/05
Posts: 5
Loc: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
thanks Tim,

Yeah, the latency issue was one of the main things I was thinking of... if I can just play live through a Mac than that'll be awesome. I still love analog synths -- I'm recording an EP right now and have a prophet 5 and an OBX at the studio I'm in that'll probably end up being recorded. I'm still pretty new to the synth world, though, so I'm sure as I get familiar with the technology, I'll be all about the software synths, since they're so versatile and affordable. For live shows I know it's they way to go. now all I need is a computer.... .

would a Korg MS2000 work decently as a controller?

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#6691 - 09/25/05 04:00 PM Re: No REASON for hardware anymore?
Sheriff Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 965
Loc: Frankfurt, Hessen, Germany
Try a soft synth on your PC and if you think it's a fine synth emulation then try it again with another soundcard! The result is that your fine sounds have changed their face!!!
Compare it with a real hardware synth! If you create a good sound on your Korg then save it on disc, bring it to your friend's Korg and you'll have the same sound.

Well, another problem is: The only computer that was ever made for music were the Atari ST/Falcon series (and following clones produced in Europe). Also newer hardware synths which can easily be named as "music computers".

Why this?
Well, at first the computer. The Atari Corp. decided to create a computer concept which includes a midi interface and a special MFP chip which controlled the midi interrupt. So it was easy to develope music software - especially soft sequenzers - for it. Also the (T)OS operated in single task (switchable between single and multi in the later TOS version "Multi-TOS"). So, the music software could handle with 100% of the task window (no latency). Also the Atari computers were built in robust and habile cases with long life electronics.
Unfortuntely this computer concept died a long and painful way... ...but that's another story...

Second, the music-computer. At the beginning of the 90's I bought a synth which had touched my soul with its fantastic sounds - a K2000 by Kurzweil!!! It was the 19" rack version K2000RS with a 16MB sampler on board. With its big display (I guess it was one of the first soft button menus), its floppy disc drive (DOS 1.44MB) and its two SCSI ports the K2k seemed to me more like a computer than like a synth. More than ever if I knew that all the filters, envelopes and oscillators are only programmed parameters. Hm, and the sampler came with its own sample editor. And samples are wave files - again digital parameters and values. But the whole hardware is made for music only - both electronic and case.

Conclusion: I will never renounce my hardware gear including the Atari. I will never use computers and their software in life situations (especially not for main control functions). Though I trust it I have to include the Atari because it's never easy to handle a software in life situations and it isn't very advisable to use computers in open air concerts (especially on rainy days).

It's another thing if you're working in studio surrounding. There you have time enough to try this or that, to simply do what you want. If your computer hasn't a good timing invest your time to correct it in an editor. If your software is hard to handle then no matter because you have time. If you want to create loops with your sampler (hard or soft based) you'll always spend many time for it.

I don't see that emulators are similar to the original synth but they are near to it. I don't hate soft synths but I don't need it. Though if I'll find a good soft sound then I'll feel free to record it with my hardware sampler...

------------------
Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

[This message has been edited by Sheriff (edited 09-25-2005).]
_________________________
Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

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#6692 - 09/25/05 04:04 PM Re: No REASON for hardware anymore?
3351 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/17/03
Posts: 1194
Loc: Toronto, Canada.
Hi!
Getting a Mac is always a good move.
I've got two here. Both work like a charm. Fast, reliable and easy to use. No issues with viruses or security. None!!!

Yes you will be able to use MS2000 as a controller. More so it's got knobs and you wil be able to use them to control and edit your soft synths and instruments.

-ED-
_________________________
A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.
- - - Oscar Wilde

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#6693 - 09/25/05 04:08 PM Re: No REASON for hardware anymore?
Sheriff Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 965
Loc: Frankfurt, Hessen, Germany
Quote:
Originally posted by evanh:
...would a Korg MS2000 work decently as a controller?

Every midi keyboard works as a controller.
Regards, Danny
_________________________
Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

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#6694 - 09/26/05 09:26 AM Re: No REASON for hardware anymore?
evanh Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/24/05
Posts: 5
Loc: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
i was wondering about the MS2000 because someone told me it was a difficult one to program when it's used as a controller.

danny, what do you use for a hardware sampler, and what do you play in live situations? my main problem is that we're going to be touring this EP and I need to emulate tones from at least six different keyboards we have here. I'm sure with piano/organ/pad sounds I can go with something that's just close enough, but some of these leads we're recording sound pretty unique to each keyboard and it needs to be bang on. That's where I was thinking I'd sample the actual tone from the keyboard. Or do many keyboards have sample libraries that can be bought or downloaded... does this make any sense?? don't mean to sound naive, I'm really just trying to learn here. thanks guys!

cheers.

evan

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#6695 - 09/26/05 10:00 AM Re: No REASON for hardware anymore?
3351 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/17/03
Posts: 1194
Loc: Toronto, Canada.
Why the hardware sampler?


Now, I don't know what the hell they meant by saying that an MS200 is difficult to program as a controller. If you are going to program it's own sounds then it's got plenty of knobs.
From there it's jus a matter of using them right. Even drunk musicians of the 60's were able to do that. LOL

If they meant that you will have a difficult time plugging in a MIDI out into the MIDI in of whatever you want to control then that isn't too difficult either. Although some in this forum found it rather challenging. Are you reading this Paul?

Nope, neither programming, nor using it as a controller should be a problem.
And yet again, I would advise to stay away from hardware samplers. Unless they are dirt cheap. Something like a K2000 for $600 or so or less.

Tell him about Kurzs Sheriff. THey seem to work for you pretty well.

-ED-
_________________________
A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.
- - - Oscar Wilde

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#6696 - 09/26/05 10:31 AM Re: No REASON for hardware anymore?
evanh Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/24/05
Posts: 5
Loc: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
hey ed,

When i mentioned a sampler, i actually was thinking of using a software sampler, but I was just wondering what sheriff recommended for hardware since he seems so strongly about not using a computer live.

I'm going to look into financing a mac, since, like you said, it can only be a good move.

i'm sure I'll have no problem plugging the MS2K in

thanks for your help

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#6697 - 09/26/05 10:48 AM Re: No REASON for hardware anymore?
3351 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/17/03
Posts: 1194
Loc: Toronto, Canada.
Dan,
One more thing. You do not own any software synths. You do not have any experience using them what so ever. Atari is dead. GOne. Stop confusing all the new guys.

As I've been saying. I own two Macs. even my old G4 can load and use more samples and do more with them than any hardware sampler out there. There are no issues with using different audio cards. I just went from using Digidesign to MOTU and nothing is different. Stil playing and recording at 196k 24bit. NOt something that you can do with your Kurz. You've only got some 32 or 64 megs of sample memory available. Surely it is enough for what you do and you write great music with it.
But not everyone here writes space rock symphonies in Sheriff minour.
We can't all get away with using just a K2000. It isn't the early 90's and we need a bit more than 32 or 64 megs of memory to load today's sample libraries.

I wouldn't bother explaining why one would need gigs and gigs of samples because it is obvious to those who need good pianos, strings, drums and other acoustic instrument samples. Some amateurs are quite fine with using 8 meg sound sets for home entertainment and MIDI playback of Karaoke tunes but by the same token some freaks out there don't use electricity at all and don't bathe. I mean there are lots of weird limited people out there. It is just a nature of today's world. Too many freaks. Not enough circuses. I for once do not use online banking at all. It's suppose to be very convenient...
LOL

Okay. back I go to my Macs and all the challenges they bring.

Cheers brother,

-ED-

[This message has been edited by 3351 (edited 09-26-2005).]
_________________________
A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.
- - - Oscar Wilde

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#6698 - 09/26/05 03:55 PM Re: No REASON for hardware anymore?
Sheriff Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 965
Loc: Frankfurt, Hessen, Germany
Quote:
Originally posted by 3351:
...Stil playing and recording at 196k 24bit. NOt something that you can do with your Kurz...

Oh, you're using a 192kHz/24bit CD-player on a 192kHz/24bit HiFi system, yet???
I don't need more than 44.1kHz/16bit because that's HiFi standard. As long as this is standard for CDs this will be sufficient. Any higher rates uses too much disc space only.

Oh, and by the way, I know softsynths in the meantime. A friend of mine uses Cubase (and others) with many plug-ins but he's also not really happy with it. He says: "It's not comparable with a real synth played in life situations!"
What should I say? I couldn't agree more...

I don't confuse anybody here - I only make some facts clear. The hardware architecture of modern computers are not fitted for making music. You have to power them up by extra hardware elements like midi cards, audio cards or USB-to-midi converters. And those extra elements require extra software drivers for the OS communication. That's the way it goes if the hardware wasn't made for music. You'll have to bow it...

Siriously, if you want to have a good synth (not a baby toy keyboard) you'll have to pay $3,000 and more. That's also the price for a PC with the required power, a good qualified audio system and a high quality midi system with no latency. It's a little bit more expensive if you plan to by a Mac instead of a PC. Okay, you can lower the system's price if you're familiar with Linux.
The difference is: The computer is good for studio surrounding only but the synth is extra made for studio AND life situations. Okay, you may say that there are laptops which were made for outdoor usage but though don't trust a laptop system for any main controlling in life situations.
I know there are some users here in this forum and anywhere else in the world who didn't make any bad experiences with their laptop but I personally made three times the experience that a band couldn't start to play because of a computer crash - they used a Windows laptop!!! I never saw any other band playing with a computer!!! The other band's gigs were good - only minor failures which means "standard" to me!

@evan: I'm not really sure what you want to try. Do you want to play life on one computer instead of on six synths?

I'm using a Kurzweil K2000RS - a hardware synthesizer with a sampler on board. But I'm using it in my studio where I'm also using an Atari Falcon HD recording system and a Windows PC as a digital tape recorder (my 2nd stereo sampler). So, I can sample sounds and re-sample it with tons of effects by using only one effect device...

In life situations I'm playing my Gibson only. I let the keyboardist play the keys...

Oh, and there's one further point before I forget it: If you create a good sound in your studio, for example a good grand piano, when you hear it through your studio speakers then it's possible that the same piano will sound terrible through the PA's speakers or monitors.

We often changed our instruments from gig to gig and so we played this or that piano sound. I didn't realize any different envelopes because I tried to hear my guitar all the time through the monitor...
And the audiences didn't realize any differences because they heard our songs the first time...*LOL*...that's really a big advantage...
Regards, Danny

[This message has been edited by Sheriff (edited 09-26-2005).]
_________________________
Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

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