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#57864 - 04/04/03 01:32 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
technicsplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
Quote:
Originally posted by lrngkybrd:
When I entered in C7 it displayed the notes I should play on the keyboard. I then changed to C9 and the keyboard stayed the same. It didn't change at all from C7 to C9, that's why I thought it was the same.


that's why you should switch to pianist mode and then you'll see and hear the differences between 9th and added 9th even with auto accompaniment. By the time you've extended the chords beyond 9ths it becomes more difficult to actually hear the differences in auto accompaniment, particularly with fast chord changes.

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#57865 - 04/04/03 07:37 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
RW Offline
Member

Registered: 01/30/01
Posts: 344
Loc: NJ, USA
Question (to Chuck)

What is the difference between a C2 and a Cadd9?

I can tell you when I play a C2 I generally do not play the 3rd. IE I woulc play C,D and G.

I'm also very curious about Suspended chords. I have seen for a long time chords like Csus or Asus then when I was using a software package and tried to enter Asus as the chord name it errored and sais Asus was not a valid chord and it gave me a l;ist of valid chords to choose from and Asus4 was there. I was wanting to play the 4th note in the scale so I choose Asus4. So what's the deal with that? Whats the diff between Asus and Asus4. Or does Asus imply the 4th?

Thanks in advance.

Bob
<><

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#57866 - 04/04/03 08:50 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Chuck Piper Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 403
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi Bob,

I have never heard of a C2 chord. The notes C,D, and G you are playing and which you call a C2 chord is very likely the first inversion of a Gsus4 chord. The notes for Gsus4 are G, C, and D with the G note being the root. Go to your keyboard and play G, C, and D first, then play C, D, and place the G note on top (the way you play it) and you will hear the sound of a Gsus4 in its first inversion.

What is the difference between a C2 chord and a Cadd9 chord? There is one significant difference. The Cadd9 chord is a major chord and your so-called C2 chord is a suspended chord. Let's see why.

You say you usually do not play the note E when you play your C2 chord. In a C chord, the note E is the third note as we discussed above. The third note of any scale determines whether the scale is major or minor. If you play a C scale and use the note E, you are playing a major scale. If you lower the E note a semi-tone (half tone) and play Eb as you play the scale, you are playing the C minor scale. So the tonality of a scale is affected by the treatment of the third note i.e., playing E natural or Eb.

Now, to play a suspended chord, you play the root note, the fourth note, and the fifth note of a scale. If you play Csus4 for example, the notes would be C, F, and G. Notice the third note (E) is not played. If you added the third note you would have a discordant sound because you are trying to mix a major chord and a suspended chord.
In the case of your C2 chord, you are in fact leaving out the note B of a G major chord and substituting the note D which makes it a Gsus4 chord - not a C2 chord.

Suspended chords have the same effect as dominant chords in that they create tension in music and our ears require that tension to be resolved, hence, as an example, G7 is resolved to C major. A suspended chord will also require resolution to another chord, though not necessarily a major chord.

So Bob, to summarize, your C2 chord should, I suspect, be renamed Gsus4 regardless of the inversion you use. And the primary difference between your C2 chord and Cadd9 is that your C2 chord is a suspended chord and Cadd9 is a major chord.

I hope I have offered clear answers to your questions. If not, let me know.

Most Sincerely, Chuck

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#57867 - 04/04/03 09:00 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Chuck Piper Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 403
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi Bob,

I neglected to answer one other question you posed. You asked what the difference was between Asus and Asus4 and does the designation "Asus" imply Asus4. Asus does indeed imply Asus4. May I suggest you sit at your keyboard and play the notes G, B, and D (G major), then play G, C, and D (Gsus4), then play G major again and you will hear the difference clearly, will feel the tension when you play the suspended chord, and the sense of relief or rest when you play the G major chord again.

Chuck

[This message has been edited by Chuck Piper (edited 04-04-2003).]

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#57868 - 04/04/03 09:35 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
ogre Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/02
Posts: 242
Loc: UK
Hi Chuck,
Your'e a beginner??? What are we going to hear from you when you become an expert?
This has been a fascinating thread and your very clear exposition has taught me a lot. I confess that I know little about music theory/chord construction. I just look at the chord symbols, go to my trusty chord chart and play. After a few years, most chords were memorised. A couple of years back I got interested in alternative/substitute chords and discovered two books with around 200 "converted" tunes done by Dick Hyman (published by Ekay Music Inc) and one book by Champ Champagne (pub. by Hal Leonard). These substitute chords add considerable interest to the music. If anyone knows of other published volumes of music on same subject, please let me know.

Congratulations to all who contributed to this thread. Great stuff.

Ogre
_________________________
Peter

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#57869 - 04/04/03 10:50 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
RW Offline
Member

Registered: 01/30/01
Posts: 344
Loc: NJ, USA
Wow Thanks Chuck,
Very excellent answer. Yes it was clear. I see what you're saying exactly about the similarities between my so-called C2 and the Gsus4. But I have seen many times the actual chord of C2 or A2 or F2 or any chord for that matter right on sheet music. I use mainly sheet music that has piano/vocals/guitar or piano/vocals/chords, because I basically play the melody line and do my own bass playing and or mixed in improvisation over the correct melody.

But yeah, I've seen the C2 chord many times. Always the C is as well the bass note. Whenever the music calls for the chord C,D and G (in any inversion) and there's a G note as the bass (in the bass clef) I will almost always see the chord of Gsus or Gsus4 written above the chord. But whenever the bass note is C and not G, I almost always see C2 written above.

I clearly see what your mean about the diff between the so-called C2 and Cadd9th though. It's a matter of the 3rd. Thank you very much Chuck. You da man.

And thanks for the "sus" vrs the "sus4" explanation. You confirmed my suspisions.

Yeah I know about the sus leaving one desiring to hear the major chord afterwards. I think it's a really cool effect.

I was playing/learning a song last week with my Praise Team and it's in the key of G, but ends with... of all things.. a C2 (aka Gsus4 with a C bass). And it just ends that way. At first I thought the sheet music was wrong and I ask the Director about this and he said that's the way he wanted to end the song. It's like you leave the audience hanging... waiting... wanting more. It's a cool effect to pull off once in a while i think. Too much of that and it could annoying.

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.

Bob
<><

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#57870 - 04/04/03 11:48 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Bud Whipple Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 480
Loc: The Plantation, Leesburg, Flor...
Chuck, you've cleared up the C2 question for me, too. I've come across the C2 notation in music and didn't know what chord to use, because the C chord didn't do the job. Funny thing, my sister has played piano for more years than she will admit to and two of my nieces are recent college graduates with music backgrounds, and they didn't know what C2 was, either. One more piece of fog just lifted! Thank you, thank you.

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#57871 - 04/04/03 11:50 AM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Chuck Piper Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 403
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi Ogre,

Thank you for showing your appreciation. I'm glad you have enjoyed this discussion of chords. Perhaps I need to clarify why I say I am a beginner. I started taking keyboard lessons about a year and a half ago, so as far as a keyboard player is concerned, I still feel like a beginner. As a musician, however, I began music studies on the trombone at age 7 - 66 years ago. So I am no stranger to music - just to a keyboard.

You mentioned you have the Dick Hyman books. What a coincidence. I have them as well. Dick is a wonderful jazz pianist and so-called jazz harmonies are the harmonies I enjoy the most. I use many of Dick's chord substitutions when they suit my taste for harmony.


Hello Again Bob,

Thank you for showing your appreciation, too. I am wondering where the C2 chord designation came from. I've never come across it in any of the music I have in my library including busker books. Strange. C2 is not mentioned in any of my harmony books either, nor have I run across it in my 66 years of reading and playing music.

You spoke about unusual endings e.g., using the Gsus4 (aka C2) chord as the final chord in a piece of music and when you questioned it, your director said that is the way he wanted it to end. You know, there are rules for harmony, but no rules to govern how you end a song. I think it is nice occasionally to leave the audience hanging with an unusual ending. In that regard, I haven't used that approach in my music - yet - but it is an intriguing thought and you can bet I'll experiment with it. Thanks for making me aware. As Ogre said, it adds interest to the music.

A thought just occurred to me. I wonder if the C2 designation is intended for guitar or ukelele players to tell them to play a C chord in the #2 position on the fretboard. I can't imagine anyone interpreting a C2 to mean a suspended 4th chord. Amazing.

You two take care,

Chuck

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#57872 - 04/04/03 12:02 PM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Chuck Piper Offline
Member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 403
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi Bud,

We were typing at the same time. You're welcome! Glad to be of help. Chords and their progressions is a fascinating area of study. Chord progression permutations are almost limitless. I just happen to have a deep interest in harmony and what makes it tick and if I can share something you find useful, so much the better. I guess I am in a way repaying some of you for the many happy hours I've spent reading and learning from all of you. Bebop began this adventure and bless his "pea pickin' heart" (as Tennessee Ernie Ford used to say), it has been pure pleasure participating in this group of great people. We're scattered all over the globe, but we share a common bond - our keyboards and love of music - so we are together. Wonderful!

Take care, Bud.

Chuck

[This message has been edited by Chuck Piper (edited 04-04-2003).]

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#57873 - 04/04/03 01:41 PM Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
Bill Norrie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 2275
Loc: Richmond,North Yorkshire, UK
Hi Chuck, Just a thought maybe C2 is actually C+9 since it uses the same named notes as C+9 (ie C,D,E,G )albeit with the note D an octave down - the '2' being the second note in the scale. I use this chord quite often and it has quite a pleasant sound. Interestingly, the KN6/7 actually shows this combination of notes as C+9

------------------
Willum
_________________________
Willum

After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is Music.
Aldous Huxley

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