Stefan Langolf brings you a comparison between:

Roland E-80
Yamaha Genos
Korg Pa5x
Ketron Event


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wuPm3OgaHk


He plays an Electric Piano voice on each followed by a Blues style.

As expected the Yamaha Genos voices have lots of reverb and effects that makes them instantly euphonic. This is the classic feeling of listening to a studio mastered CD which many love.

The Korg Pa5x voices on the other hand sound relatively dry allowing each instrument to be clearly identified in their own space. This sounds more like a live band.

The Ketron EVENT surprised me with the realistic guitar parts. Stefan soloed each Guitar to demonstrate the realism.

The Roland E-80 was released in 2007. It shows its age, although it still holds up well to the competition. I have seen used ones being sold for $800 at Guitar Center which makes it a bargain buy.

Stefan is an Arranger fanatic.

He has more comparison videos on his YouTube Channel.


https://www.youtube.com/@arranger-world2022/videos


It is great for the customer to have so many choices at so many price points to satisfy your individual needs and tastes.

I am disappointed that he doesn’t attempt to dial the effects so they are closer. I think that’s one of the main things to take away from these comparisons… do a little editing and you can get them so close it’s pretty moot with the basic meat and potatoes sounds.

And, to be quite honest, even the mid-line arrangers will be close to indistinguishable too..!

What sets the TOTL arrangers apart is all the stuff he’s NOT using, Yamaha’s Ensemble voicing modes, Korg’s two styles running simultaneously, Ketron’s clip launching, things like that.

But, as with his previous comparison (posted here a few weeks ago) my opinion still stands. If this is as good as you can play, and if this is as complex as you want to use an arranger, why pay $4-5K for a modern one when a used E80 (or G70) will sound VERY close, and can be found for well under $1,000?

I suspect he demonstrates what the majority of the players will do. Not much more than playing those styles and sounds... I am looking at an E-80 right now, for about 500 dollars. Yes, 20 years old, but who's getting any younger?

LE: Indeed, I was looking for a BK-9, but they are very rare it seems, none available in my region... Such a shame Roland left the market, I had hoped for some Go Keys 7 or something at NAMM, but no signs.

Ceau Adi

Since Roland East Europe LTD. in Budapest was a major distributor for Hungary and Romania back in the days, I would keep an eye on the instrument advertisements that appear in Hungary because they sold plenty of them over there, therefor every once in a while a BK-9 would pop up.

Here is a link that has a potential in coming across a BK-9 or any other Roland product:
https://www.jofogas.hu/magyarorszag?q=roland

Here is an E-80 for 650 USD:
https://www.jofogas.hu/veszprem/Roland_E_80_Szintetizator_152801957.htm


Here is a G-70 for sale approx. 725 USD:
https://www.jofogas.hu/fejer/Roland_G_70_szintetizator_megkimelt_allapotban_elado_152612922.htm


Your next bet would be Poland or Germany.

Hey Dengizich, thanks, indeed I remember Roland was huge in Hungary back in the years, Romanians always prefered Korg Much appreciated your input, I might turn to that for shopping, I'll see how it goes.

All the best to you!!!

Adi

Well said ! Words of Wisdom

The Roland E-80 is doing pretty good with those other keys.

Would you like to hear a keyboard that is showing its age? My first arranger was a Roland E-68 that I bought in 1996. I still own it to this day, and it works mint. A very simple machine, with 28 voice polyphony, SMF player (GM GS) , 241 sounds, 64 styles, digital effects 8 reverb - 8 chorus, floppy disk drive and 64 performance memories.


Here is a link, if you are curious how the E-68 sounds like:
https://youtu.be/TZTcebhLyLU?feature=shared


It wasn't that popular in the US, it was mostly sold in Europe. Although the ones that were sold in the US had a "US" designation next to the Roland logo, and the letters were in blue instead of the orange like the European models had.

Adi, you're welcome and thank you!

Yes, the preferred brand was Korg and Yamaha.

Sanatate!

Given a choice between an E80 and a G70, I’d pick the G70 every day! 76 notes is a lot friendlier to play full piano parts on (and that action is to die for!) and the G70 had a 64MB main piano sound (that was a lot of RAM for one piano back in the day!) that was changed for the E80. I did a LOT of session work using the G70’s piano sound backin the day and it held up VERY well in a pro mix.

It’s one of the reasons I still keep one. Wonderful sound!

G70 is a bit lighter despite being a 76 (no speakers) and only had one SRX slot (E80 had 2), but unless you play no two handed stuff at all, I think it’s the better of the two.

Diki, I got a G-70 too, actually, you were the one who told me to buy the SRX-07 Ultimate Keys expansion board when I got it. The piano sounds are phenomenal on that exp. board. Color touch screen, nice key bed, vocoder, harmonizer.

Sanatate si tie si numai bine!

I really really hope Roland will come back into the arranger market, may they called their future arrangers anything else. But it is indeed such a shame for them to have ceased the development in this department completely, or almost completely - I hope a new, improved and modernized series of keyboards will bring back many of those excellent features Roland always had. Modern multi-sampled sounds, updated styles for present days... Hopefully, once day!

In this thread we went into detail about Roland and its arrangers. Diki and others had some good inputs...


http://www.synthzone.com/forum/ubbthread...its_#Post510290

The thing was, Roland had a bad habit of trying to reinvent the wheel every time a new significant model change came around. Yamaha and Korg were far more incremental in their new models, very little got dropped, a few things got added, it made for a stable user base.

But from the G1000 to the VA76 was a huge divide, Vari-Phrase audio introduced, Chord sequencer axed, etc.. Then the change from VA76 to G70 was equally traumatic. Gone was the Vari-Phrase stuff (best of luck porting your styles and sequences that used that!) and a host of differences again. It got pretty exhausting as a Roland user having to start almost from scratch each time you upgraded.

Add to that Roland’s stubborn refusal to add multipad support which was a basic feature of Yamaha and Korg (so obviously non-proprietary) and which helps enormously to make styles less repetitive and predictable. Eventually, between these two factors, an awful lot of Roland players who swore by the G1000 ended up with Tyros’s or PA3x’s etc..

Once gone, most didn’t come back. We used to have endless comparisons between the brands back in the day, and fair’s fair, feature-wise it was hard to promote Roland as a pure ‘arranger’. I and many others still thought the basic ‘sound’ was very ‘live band’ compared to Yamaha, and as an only part-time user of the arranger section the sound was always my choice because back then I mostly split my time between full live bands and a few duo gigs. Roland’s held up fantastic in a live band, whereas Korg and Yamaha felt more ‘compressed’ and ‘home keyboard’ in sound.

Today I think that difference is much less. Genos’s and PA4/5x’s are pretty punchy now, and I think either of them would fit in with a live band easily.

So, bottom line, Roland’s became a bit dated as a pure arranger, and that trend continued into the BK series. Utterly amazing live band keyboards (I’ll take a BK9 over any of Roland’s stage keyboards like the Juno’s and VR-730!) but still crippled as a pure arranger with no multipads (other than you creating your own audio percussion loops for the Key Audio feature) and no sampler or ROM expansion.

In truth, if I primarily played arranger style for almost everything, I’d have a Genos2 or PA5x (love their ‘2 styles at a time’ idea!) but I still really want a keyboard that sits good in a live band or studio session as well as an arranger, and for me the BK9 still gets the job done. Roland went out on a high note… 🥺💔

I still use my G70 daily, as a hobbyist / passionate arranger keyboard player.

From a tactile feeling and overall ease of use and navigation, nothing beats it! It is still one of my all time favourite keyboards after owning over 30 different keyboards in the last 25 years.

However, the Love / hate is strong... One of the biggest draw backs for me is the fact that you cannot make any of the style parts fixed to prevent them from changing chord progressions. This is a big thing as some songs may have certain instrument tracks that do not change key while other instruments will within a certain chord progression (while still all sounding musically in key)...

The Other issue is while in style play, the bass note cant go below a certain note on the keyboard. it will only stay within a certain note range on the keyboard. - this too wasn't rectified on the BK9.

Every other arranger I have ever played and owned could do the above... every Yamaha back to the PSR 1000 could do it, all the KORG PA keyboards, even my technics kn6000 does it all.

But for me - the overall build quality, the keys, the layout, the sounds and the functionality is what has made the G70 shine and outlast everything else that has come and gone. I cant see myself ever parting ways with it, it is THAT GOOD! - if you know you know ;-)

If it wasn’t for that darn chord sequencer and the audio playback, I might have stayed on the G70, but the CS is a ‘must have’ for me to be able to play the way I do in arranger mode. I grew up in live bands, playing lots of early synths, and the bender is an integral way to solo on those. Not to mention an indispensable part of imitating horns, and basically everything not controlled by a keyboard.

Arranger mode ties up your left hand too much, so the CS (once you play in the head) frees it up to be expressive. I pretty much stopped using the G70 as a live arranger because of that. I’d still use the arranger to create SMF’s to play over, but on the gig I needed that LH free!

The inability to change basslines outside a certain range I think was a niche problem, restricted to the few that create their own styles, and for me, by the time I needed a bassline THAT specific I was happy enough to use an SMF with the bassline in its correct form. Sometimes I feel that arranger players can ignore the better solution to a problem because it makes them use the sequencer, but if you use Markers in an SMF, you regain a fair bit of the structural freedom the arranger gives.

I still haven’t found a better laid out touchscreen on an arranger yet… Early Korg’s were unresponsive, Yamaha use FAR too much screen real estate on eye candy, and to my eternal gratitude, I found out that even if the screen got exposed to bright Florida sunshine for a protracted period, even though it went black and unreadable, after a few minutes to cool down it came back as good as new. Phew! That’s a several hundred dollar part to replace!

I miss not having new Roland arrangers to discuss and dissect, but with both a G70 and a BK9, I think I’m a lucky man! 🎹❤️😎

Stefan uploaded another of his popular Arranger Comparison videos on YouTube.
In this one he focuses on the iconic chorused and detuned Piano voice in the ABBA Song – Money, Money, Money.

He plays them in this order:

Yamaha Genos2
Roland E-80
Korg Pa5x
Ketron Event

Later, he plays the full arrangement.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPW-vYuZrzU


The Roland E-80 can’t quite compete with the other 3 top of the line models.

It takes a lot of effort on Stefan’s part to create these entertaining comparison videos.
He has to reposition all his keyboards for each section, select the closest matching style and voices and level out the output volumes.

The Pa5x has the live band feeling with each instrument clearly distinguishable.
The Genos2 is washed in effects like a studio processed track.
The Event delivers the most excitement.

It would be a matter of personal preference amongst the big three. They all can sound fabulous in the hands of an expert musician.

If one wants to have it all, they could buy the 88-key piano action Korg Pa5x and place it on the bottom tier, add the 76-key synth action Genos2 on the 2nd tier and top it off with the Ketron EventX arranger module on the 3rd tier or on a side stand.

Sorry, but drenching a voice in reverb and effects is the choice of the player, not the instrument.

Comparing apples to oranges...

These demos are completely pointless to me. Sure the Ketron does have a more distinct sound in terms of clarity with the drums but you could get very very close with the other boards depending how you EQ'd the tracks and addedsd/removed effects...

Also - as we all know - with each of these boards you can change the drum kits around AND select different snare samples from the pool of snares that are available amongst other drumkits on board... And guess what - the Roland would do this the easiest and quickest using the make up tools. But none of these demos go into any feature detail... its just a like for like comparison of the same song being played. you could probably do this with 20 other keyboards and they would all sound as similar.

Switching around and re racking those heavy keyboards every time would be a nightmare...

Actually, the Ketron cannot substitute kicks and snares etc, or change electrics to acoustic basses or guitars. That’s the nature of audio loops.

You get more realism if the loop is PERFECT for what you need, but it comes at the cost of being unchangeable (and quite honestly, pretty easy to pick out if used in a different style) and you still have the issue of only having a few correctly voiced chord types.

If you are the type that never touches the stock ROM styles, and don’t play enough songs that style repetition becomes apparent, loop arrangers are great. But if you like to fiddle a little with your sound, if you want to use a style twice or more, but want it to sound different for each song, loops quickly become tiring, imho…

Personally, I want to see comparison videos demonstrating what each arranger does that the others CAN’T do! I’d like to see Korg’s running two styles simultaneously. I’d like to hear Yamaha demos that use the Ensemble revoicing to get correct horn voicing. I’d like to hear clip launching on Ketron’s. I’d like to see videos showing which arranger can edit a rock style into an acoustic style the easiest.

It’s this kind of stuff that still juices me about arrangers, not seeing how close someone can get a bunch of different arrangers to sound playing a hokey old tune…. Progress is being able to do something NEW, not the same tired old stuff. Compare THAT! 🎹😎

Leigh Wilbraham uploaded an engaging 52 min demo of the Ketron EVM Event Module in a Box used in conjunction with a Genos2.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvnrd4JAW_w


Leigh had high praises for the Live Drums and Real Chords in the Ketron EVM Styles. They certainly sound more authentic as if played by real studio musicians.

Leigh demonstrated how to marry the styles of the Ketron EVM with the wonderful voices on the Genos2 thus achieving the best of both worlds.

It was intriguing to see that not only are there four variations A, B, C and D to each style but there is also a separate VARIATION button that effectively doubles the number of Style Variations from 4 to 8.

Perhaps AJ can fill us in on this feature.

Leigh obtained this module as a loaner from Adam Whittle at Scan Audio. He enthusiastically recommended all Genos2 users to get this add on module to access the better quality styles.


https://www.ajamsonic.com/product/ketron-evm-module?id=374


This video may be the most convincing ad for the Ketron EVM arranger module.

So the answer to being unhappy with your $5000 arranger is to add a $2600 module (or its $3500 big brother)?

Man, people got to learn… if you’re unhappy with any modern TOTL arranger, the solution isn’t to get another one. The solution is to work on YOU. Work on your playing. Work on your mastery of your arranger’s features (bet you’re not using 10% of them). Work on learning new tunes.

Bottom line, if you can’t make a $5000 arranger sound AMAZING, adding a $2500 module isn’t going to help anyone but the music store… 😂💵💸💸💸

Leigh Wilbraham posted an update to his review of the Ketron EVM module.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_v-UH4DFSM


He found a way to globally change the EQ.
In the previous video he was complaining having to set the EQ manually for each style.

The solution was to press the EDIT button and turn on GLOBAL.
This way one could select their favorite Drum EQ setting say BRIGHT1 and the saved changes becomes global to all styles.

Leigh is absolutely blown away with the quality of the Disco and Pop Styles. He says this tiny 10 inch x 8 inch x 2 inch box is a major threat to other manufacturers.

Thomann has this for $2,444.


https://www.thomannmusic.com/ketron_evm_event_modul.htm


Any person how owns a WERSI or a BOHM organ can immediately benefit from having instant access to these vastly improved styles.

Leigh feels the Ketron EVM would be the ideal companion box for a Genos2 or Pa5x owner.
He likes it so much, he decided to buy one.

He had one enhancement request to improve the ergonomics. He wants Ketron to design a small panel that can be placed on the keyboard that will feature these Style Control buttons:

Intro/Ending 1
Intro/Ending 2
Intro/Ending 3
To End
A
B
C
D
Variation
Fill
Break
Tempo +
Tempo –
Hold
Pause
Start


I wonder if a Nektar Pacer MIDI Foot Controller can be interfaced to the Ketron EVM module to trigger all the Style Controls with your feet. Perhaps AJ can elaborate on this.

Of course, one can always buy the Ketron EventX Arranger Module that comes with all the physical button, but at a much higher price of $3,444.


https://www.thomannmusic.com/ketron_eventx.htm

Hi Diki,

I share your sentiment.

The skill of the player is 90% of the equation. No amount of fancy hardware can make a beginner sound like a pro. It would be an exercise in futility to put a beginner in control of a Korg Pa5x, Genos2 and Event EVM stack and expect them to impress an audience.

Martin Harris would sound more impressive playing on a single Tyros2. He is the designer. He knows his product inside out. He would achieve results that would knock the socks off his audience.

There is no substitute for taking the arduous path of mastering your keyboard chops spanning decades of musical training. This takes time, patience and perseverance. This is not for the fainthearted. Newbies watch these professional musicians demo all the new gizmos and are instantly led to believe they could sound like them only if they had that newest gear in their arsenal.

Yes, this strategy does drive up the sales.

However, I will make an exception for the Ketron EVM Module. I think Ketron engineers have managed to design a product with the quality of styles and features that would benefit keyboard players who do not already have a top of the line arranger.

A person who is a dedicated piano player and owns the Kawai MP11SE would be thrilled to have access to all the arranger functions for $2,444. It would be just an iPad sitting on the keyboard that would present the entire user interface. This is an ideal solution.

This is far cheaper than adding the Yamaha Genos2 mounted on the upper tier.

Consider an alternate scenario. Imagine someone purchasing the Korg KRONOS 3 for $3,000. Arguably, this would be the most advanced workstation when released in May. It would come with the best collection of sounds from its 9 sound engines, plus it would have KARMA. I would be buying one. All it lacks are the arranger functions.

This is where the Ketron EVM module comes in. Adding this module for $2,444 would make the Korg KRONOS 3 complete. This combination would still be cheaper than buying the Genos2.

I feel Ketron has hit the right balance between price, form factor and functionality. This is a unique product that will appeal to keyboard and synth players. It is the bridge to the world of Arrangers.

I agree that Live Styles presents its limitations as you pointed out.

This is the reason why Leigh was using only simple chords C, F, G7 in his demos.
I am not sure how well the Live Styles will translate when playing complex chords. That would necessitate an enormously large collection of audio recordings.

These limitations can be addressed in time. I applaud Ketron for taking the initiative to bring these Arranger Modules to the market. You do not get such an option with Korg or Yamaha.

Sure, add a module to a workstation, you got a potent piece of gear. But adding the arranger module to another arranger doesn’t really make sense. And quite honestly, a FAR cheaper arranger module (like a BK7m) would be equally useful to add to a Kronos2 or Montage, etc. without any of that audio loop issues.

Although Ketron’s OS allows a huge range of chord types to have individual loops, it’s horribly expensive to record and edit them all and it takes up a massive amount of memory (I don’t know the load time for custom resources though) and really it’s only mostly a few jazz styles that have any chord choices beyond those simple maj/min/7th choices. And adding to a Ketron style would be impossible, you'd have to match your own guitar loops to the factory loops, match playing, guitar type and amplifier type, effects etc.. Impossible.

I would pair a BK7m with a WS in preference to a Ketron. It’s pretty easy to direct certain style tracks to play external gear, so the arranger engine could easily drive the WS’s best sounds and drumkits, plus run in sync with the WS)s own arpeggiators and audio grooves. And it can be found for under $1000 (usually very lightly used! 😂).

I think the decision for a pianist with a high end digital piano would be how well the chord recognition works with conventional pianistic playing, and again, afaik no one else has expanded past the archaic ‘three notes gets you a new chord’ to Roland’s ‘plus five notes before a new chord with sustain down’ that revolutionizes being able to get good chord recognition without crippling normal piano playing. So again, I’d probably pick the BK7m module, it has awesome jazz and standard styles that often sound close to audio, with none of the chord type drawbacks.

Or possibly just get the FP-E50 and live with the slightly inferior piano for the sake of arranger integration (although the E50’s arranger section is very stripped back and you can’t add legacy styles).

Modules are cool, but best added to non arranger keyboards. And seldom offer the ease of use that a dedicated arranger offers. For someone not happy with a Genos2 and not an expert pro-level player with a high technical skill level, I’d recommend giving them a miss!