Me, I’d go for a nice B3 over the theater organ, but I get your point..! 😂🎹

Curiously, my old Kurzweil K2500S has a 76 action that splits the difference between synth action and piano, but it still retains the piano’s sharper edges, and to be honest, so do most synth actions. Heavier than any synth, lighter than most pianos. It works pretty well, and with full sized keys it allows me to be fairly pianistic on it (getting up in between the blacks when needed e.g.). It’s not a waterfall, but the lowered resistance helps to not snag your palm during smears and falls.

I think it’s a Fatar action, but I haven’t found it on anything other than Kurzweil’s…

As to plastic actions, I absolutely LOVE the action on my G70’s 76. A fraction heavier than say a PA4/5x 76 or most 61’s, but the main thing was firstly, full sized black keys, and secondly, the dropped the stupid fake plastic overhang to the keys, so despite not being a true waterfall action, there’s nothing to snag your hand doing smears.

Roland used this action on the G1000 (a fraction lighter, maybe a lighter spring), the VA76 the G70 and the A70 controller keyboard (got one of those!), but all modern Roland’s are using Chinese actions, and they cannot replicate this action (possibly because it was more expensive and heavier than they want nowadays).

So there’s two GREAT actions no longer available. 🥺

Even more troublingly, several new keyboard workstations are coming out with full 88 piano actions, but the middle size 73/76’s are also fully weighted piano actions, meaning only the 61 is a synth action. I cannot understand that logic… if you want fully weighted, it’s because you’re a pianist, and if you’re a pianist you NEED an 88. But the 76 synth weight has long been the ideal action for a gigging keyboardist needing room for BOTH sounds when split (and enough notes for a reasonable piano part) and a light enough action for the 80% of his gig that isn’t playing piano.

I hope this trend doesn’t become the norm…

Hi Diki,

I agree.

The new trend of using weighted action for 73 & 76 key models does not make much sense.

I wish manufacturers would standardize on the 73-key version with Synth Action Keys.

The 73-key version is not only more compact, the black & white key cadence looks less confusing.


Here is how the Yamaha Montage M7 76-key version looks:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MontageM7--yamaha-montage-m7-76-key-synthesizer

Here is how the Roland VR-730 73-key layout looks:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/...rmance-keyboard

My preference is the 73-key layout.


Yes, the synth action on the Roland G70 is ideal. Roland has always been the king of hardware, especially those before they switched to the Chinese actions. Roland gear is indestructible.

I have a Roland RD-700GX Stage Piano. It uses the PHA-2 action. It performs flawlessly after 16 years without a single issue. Roland hit it out of the ballpark with their Expressive Grand Factory Preset. Each of the 88 notes was individually multi-sampled from a Steinway Model D at different velocities.

The Expressive Grand is a joy to play on a PHA-2 action keybed. The keys are fast. They respond like the crack of a whip. They have just the right amount of heaviness. It seems like Roland optimized the PHA-2 action for extracting every nuance from their signature Expressive Grand Steinway sample.

The PHA-4 action on the Roland RD-88 does not have the heft. It feels like plastic.

The PHA-50 action on the Roland RD-2000 feels too damped and sluggish compared to the PHA-2 action on the RD-700GX.

While I have both the RD-88 and RD-2000, I always use the RD-700GX to practice my piano sessions. The Expressive Grand sampled piano is miles ahead of the newer modeled pianos that Roland introduced in the RD-2000. Roland needs to bring back the Expressive Grand. This was their crowning achievement.

You would not find a single user complaining about this Piano-A preset on the RD-700GX or its snappy PHA-2 action.

I like the FSX Synth action on the Yamaha Genos 2. It is good for playing every voice except the Piano.

I found this listing of all keyboard actions by Manufacturer and Model here:


https://chellos-keyboard-players-club.com/thread-15594.html


The Roland A-70, G-70 and G-1000 that you mentioned all use the FATAR TP/8S key action.


https://www.roland.com/au/products/a-70/

I’m not that happy with a 73… after 30 years of 76 being the standard, I see no reason to drop to 73 other than the few people that want to ape the Rhodes 73, and quite honestly, most of the Rhodes purists prefer the Suitcase 88 anyway.

At least they got the low note right… if you’re covering LH bass, you want that low E for the full 4 string range, and a low C is generally unrealistic unless the original was a 5 string bass.

I just don’t understand the need to ‘fix’ something that wasn’t broke! Especially when the ‘fix’ is to give you less… 🙄🎹

Hi Diki,

76-key with a synth action is fine with me. No need to change an established standard.

Here is an excellent demo of the Roland V-Stage Piano by Katsunori.
He knows how to make any instrument shine while exploring the presets and explaning the features.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH3yU-4OpP0


The Roland V-Stage sounds great. They somewhat copied the Norg Stage 4 hands on interface and presented a much more affordable instrument that many would embrace with open arms.

The real fun would begin when Behringer clones the V-Stage and undercuts Roland. That would complete the circle.

That's very much true. A 76 is perfect when you split the keyboard at C4. The lowest E can be the lowest note as you would have on a bass guitar, and since I played bass my brain can easily picture the whole bass guitar layout in the left section. When I used a 61 key, it was always awkward to have C as the lowest note, and I had only 2 octaves for the left hand which is doable, but not as fluid like on a 76, I wouldn't want to go back to a 61 key that's for sure.


Yamaha made a 73 keys digital piano, the P-121, the short version of the P-125 (88 keys).

I'm surprised that no one came up with a key bed that you could adjust mechanically by disengaging the weights from the keys, and than just have a spring (semi-weight) action key, 'cause it does make a difference when you play synth or piano patches.

It wouldn't be that difficult to build this hybrid key bed, where you would either have a lever that would shift all the weights sideways, disengaging them from the keys, or instead of a lever, you would have an electric (step) motor doing the same thing, plus you could save this in the registration memory if you wanted weights with that patch or not, and with the push of a button you would change things easily. While the keys themselves would have to be designed to have the shape suitable for both scenarios.

I’m afraid it’s more than just weight. Throw, rebound, repetition, all of those vary drastically between piano actions and synth actions. My K2500 is about the only thing I ever played that tried to be a halfway point between synth and piano, but it falls short of being ‘great’ at both. It is what it is… heavier than a synth, lighter than a piano. I guess if I was doing 50/50 it would be the best compromise, but if I’m honest, I'm probably more 70/30 non weighted sounds over piano.

And, of course, the downside is weight. My BK9’s 76 is comparable in feel to say a PA4x, but the better feeling G70 also weighed 25lbs more than the 20lbs BK9, and having removed both actions at one time or another, I can assure you that probably at LEAST 5 of those extra pounds was the action! Then the heavier support weight needs to add more. I'm fairly sure adding a G70 action to a BK9 would have bumped the overall weight 10lbs or so…

For me at my age (70 creeping ever closer!) my main concern is to stress my hands and fingers as little as possible, so while I lose some touch and control playing piano and Rhodes on a synth action, hopefully I’m gaining a few more years of playing without pain…

I just finished watching an interesting live podcast with Ed Diaz on the Roland V-Stage Piano.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1c5UeBicjCU


Ed Diaz is a Senior Product Specialist at Roland and has been with the company for over 18 years. Ed and his fabulous demos has become a staple at NAMM.

If you are contemplating of buying the Roland V-Stage Piano and want to take a deep dive into its architecture, this podcast will answer many questions.

Ed explained how the drawbars can send and receive MIDI System Exclusive messages, even though they do not respond to MIDI CC messages.

Many viewers asked for the Roland MKS-20 Electric Pianos to be included, specifically Electric Piano 1 &2.

This is Ed’s YouTube Channel:


https://www.youtube.com/@EdDiazKeys/videos


Ed gave a lot of useful tips.

I think YouTube podcasts are an excellent way for product specialists to connect with their experienced customers, discuss their concerns and enhancement requests and provide valuable feedback to their development engineers.

Part-2 of this podcast will be coming soon.

Drawbars should be standard CC’s. Plenty of undefined ones (and the MMA really should define them, as many many different B3 clones exist and all do drawbar codes differently) but sysex is MUCH harder to edit, scale and display.

Want to reduce all drawbars by 10% (perhaps to overdrive the Leslie less), piece of cake in an editor. Want to do the same in a string of hex sysex values? A nightmare! Want to use a VSTi B3 client for replacement? Not possible.

Bad idea, Roland!

Hi Diki,

Yes, dropping support of Continous Controller MIDI messages on the drawbars is a foolish oversight on Roland’s part. They provide the easiest way to control other MIDI devices.

Kiyomi Otaka from Roland played some of the best presets on the Roland V-Stage.
She even color coordinated her outfit in red and black to match the V-Stage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl8v-MjID4I

At the 4 min mark she plays the V-Stage Piano. It is a modeled piano. It sounds sterile and artificial to me. During the podcast yesterday with Ed Diaz the viewers raised this issue with the V-piano engine.

Ed defended Roland stating that the V-piano engine should be treated as an empty canvas where the end user is free to tailor the sound to their liking by tinkering with all the available parameters.

Ed conceded that Roland has years of experience in sampling technology and can always furnish the best piano samples from their vault if needed. Some users just like to pull up the best sampled piano on their keyboard like the Nord White Grand and concentrate on playing rather than spending hours fiddling with knobs trying to coax the best modeled piano.

No matter how much I tried I could not get any of the modeled pianos on the Roland RD-2000 to sound satisfactory. The realism was missing. The biggest problem was in the initial attack of the waveform. The initial attack on the sampled waveforms are way more complex that gives it their signature character. The models miss this.

The Expressive Grand Sampled piano on the Roland RD-700GX has the signature bell like clarity of a Steinway. All notes have at least 3 multi-samples. You can distinctly hear the change in character as you go through the velocity steps.

While it is true that you can hear the sudden jump from one multi-sample to another, I still prefer the realism and authenticity it brings. You just need to adjust your playing style knowing which velocity interval you need to be confined in to sound smooth.

I was so disappointed that Roland dropped the Expressive Grand sampled piano on the RD-2000. Why would Roland do this? This sampled Steinway was their crowning achievement. This should have been the default piano patch showcased front and center.

Instead Roland wanted to promote their modeled pianos, none of which could measure up to the Steinway sampled piano from the RD-700GX.

When users complained about the piano voices on the RD-2000, Roland made the Expressive Grand sample available as a free downloadable expansion package (RD-EXP04) at their Axial Website.


https://axial.roland.com/category/rd-2000/


I was disappointed yet again.

This was a heavily watered down version of the original. The size of this sample had to be cut down to a measly 32MB to fit the expansion memory space. It sounded nothing as gorgeous as the original Expressive Grand Piano Preset A on the RD-700GX.

This was a cheap clownish imitation.

There is truth to the saying, “Don’t fix it if it’s not broken.”

Roland could have made the RD-2000 a stellar stage piano had they simply kept the original Expressive Grand sampled Steinway. They decided to withhold it instead. I understand they are trying to push their modeled pianos. It takes up way less memory space saving money.

Roland has done the same thing with the V-Stage. They did not provide the Expressive Grand sampled piano. That would have been the only piano voice the users needed.

There is a reason why users love the White Grand Piano on the Nord. This is a darn good sampled piano that sounds so pleasing.

There is a reason why Yamaha does not use modeled pianos. The sampled CFX II and Bosendorfer sound way better.

I like all the sounds on the Roland V-Stage from the demos I am hearing, except the Piano voice.

Have you compared the Expressive Grand against the G70’s GrandX main piano sound? From the way you’re describing it, it’s possible that might be in the G70…

I used that sound in a lot of sessions, even at studios that had an actual Steinway baby grand (and a Yamaha CIIIFX too!) and the producer was always satisfied how it sat in a mix!

It was reported to use a full 64MB (a lot back then!) for JUST that one piano sound.

Haven’t got my hands on an RD2000 yet, but I’m impressed by Pianoteq’s modeled stuff. There are many that say being able to hear the sampl boundaries is just as detrimental as the basic sound being not so lively, but Pianoteq’s models seem pretty lively…

These days for the best piano experience I am far more tempted by most quality VSTi pianos than anything I’ve heard in hardware…