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#509446 - 01/09/24 10:13 AM Software/Softsynth arrangers versus real ones
Henni Offline
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Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3456
Loc: South Africa
There seems to be much interest in this topic. Feel free to discuss to your heart's content in this thread specifically created for this very purpose.

Over here anything goes so please don't hold back.


Originally Posted By Dnj
How many here on SZ are actually using BIAB vs an Arranger KB?
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#509449 - 01/09/24 10:23 AM Re: Software/Softsynth arrangers versus real ones [Re: Henni]
Henni Offline
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Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3456
Loc: South Africa
Originally Posted By cgiles
Originally Posted By Henni
Yes Bernie,



It is really a breeze to create anything.


Henni


"We do this not because it's easy, but because it's hard" --JFK

It's true, BIAB is a remarkable program (totally outclasses any of it's would-be competitors). HOWEVER, what's the goal here? It's like a sophisticated musical game where you can play 'Amazing Grace' as a Jazz Waltz (with virtually no effort on your part). Very few musicians will recognize or acknowledge your talent from a composition you created with BIAB. That's not to say that it has no uses or has no value. It can give you ideas for an arrangement, help you learn a song quickly (if your aim is to actually PLAY it), or even create something that would make the original composer want to kill you smile.

Music is such a personal thing. For me, I'd rather develop a 'signature' sound rather than create something that anyone with a computer and $99 bucks could easily duplicate. But that's just me. Your attitude towards the program and usage of it is 100% valid for YOU. As a novelty program or even as a learning tool, it certainly has value. To make it the primary basis for one's musical endeavors....I'm not so sure. YMMV. I just feel that there is no substitute for putting in the time and effort to learn to play. Arrangers are a step away from that; BIAB is one step further. Some of the BIAB arrangements are very nice; congratulations to the composers and arrangers that created them.

chas
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#509451 - 01/09/24 10:24 AM Re: Software/Softsynth arrangers versus real ones [Re: Henni]
Henni Offline
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Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3456
Loc: South Africa
Originally Posted By abacus
Originally Posted By Henni
I bet a great many hits being played on the airways were created with BiaB. I know for a fact that some make their career & income from it.

Would love your take on the latest music created with the help of AI - the "artists/musicians" are making a killing with it. No use kicking against the pricks. We are old - some of us even gone. On PSRTutorial they are discussing the trend of arrangers when we old folks are gone and they are 100% correct. The world & it's technology moves on regardless of our personal opinion.

We had it our way & now it's their turn & BiaB definitely caters for moving in that direction.

One thing I'll state: I am having more fun with BiaB than with anything else till now. And I thoroughly enjoyed ALL of my arrangers as well as my many contributions for every one of those arrangers. But then, that's ME! Most of these folks perform regularly as one man bands and notice how they use BiaB for that purpose. This planet is certainly filled with all sorts of musicians and to each his own - as long as we have fun!

I see no reason to critisize others for the specific method they choose to live out their talents.

And then a final thought - I would LOVE to see more post their music that they created with their specific instruments of choice over here to inspire the rest of us. Bar AJ, why do I feel so alone in doing so? There ought to be many more topics like this one highlighting all the other great instruments being used out there.

Would it not be great if one of you would start a topic for i.e. ALL the arrangers where others are encouraged to post their renditions of their models over here. Nice & neat & all in one topic for all to follow. I suggest keeping it in MP3 format with links to i.e. Boxnet like I do in order not to use up all bandwidth over here.

Anyways, just an idea...


Technology is a great servant, but a very bad master, hence if you go back to the various times when technology ruled in music, the music sucked and became the equivalent of Karaoke, fortunately (As usual) musicianship came back, and music moved forward.

Bill
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#509452 - 01/09/24 10:24 AM Re: Software/Softsynth arrangers versus real ones [Re: Henni]
Henni Offline
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Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3456
Loc: South Africa
Originally Posted By Diki
I think that any form of auto accompaniment has an important role for the solo musician…

Not to be included in the final mix, but as an inspiring starting place for you to be able to play without that dreaded ‘blank paper’ moment early in production. Usually, in studio work, the rhythm section is tracked as a whole, and then sweetening is added afterwards. But the solo musician, if he doesn’t use accompaniment tools, has to lay down each part (especially the first couple of rhythm) without the benefit of anything else to play WITH, and it’s that interaction that leads to a more cohesive performance.

So I’ve no problem with their place in the studio or backing track preparation. But…

The magic that is humans playing real music is generally (hopefully!) far superior to machines playing little chunks that are stitched together using one system or another. The subtle variations that humans impart is something that may sometimes be difficult to hear but is obvious in its absence.

Now yes, we’ve had 20 years of dance music that WAS originally created using repetitive loops, and if that’s what you’re trying to do the machine deserves its spot in the final mix. But if you’re trying to make music based on an older aesthetic, it deserves to be through played, from beginning to end, like the original.

Generally, I love auto accompaniment to get the ball rolling, but gradually each part gets replaced by a played part, whether by me or a studio musician. I think it’s worth the time…
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#509453 - 01/09/24 10:25 AM Re: Software/Softsynth arrangers versus real ones [Re: Henni]
Henni Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3456
Loc: South Africa
Originally Posted By cgiles
In my opinion, there is not much creative about jotting down some chords in BIAB (or similar), selecting a style, and hitting PLAY. i'm sure THAT could be done by a well trained chimp (well actually he wouldn't have to be that well trained). Seriously, what Diki said above could certainly be applied if that's your approach to starting a project. In fact, I myself use pre-recorded drum tracks or drum tracks I constructed using drum machine software and I always do this FIRST as I play along in my head. So I guess, in a way, I'm doing the same thing, just to a lesser degree. Where available, I ALWAYS prefer a live drummer, but only if he's good (with time and taste).

Another problem with non-realtime programs like BIAB is the difficulty in using them (or their creations) on a gig. Ignore this if you aren't gigging. What do you do with a request that's not in your song file? Hum it? or maybe call a break and start furiously typing in chords? or just be honest and tell the requester that your computer doesn't know that.....yet. At least with an arranger, if you know it or can quickly bring it up from your digitized fake book, AND can play, you can probably hack it and get that $2.00 tip (that's where those years of music lessons come in) smile .

The point is, no one that can play even a little bit, is ever going to trade in their arranger KB for BIAB. They may buy/use it IN ADDITION TO their keyboard, especially in a way as described in Diki's post. But let's face it; that old adage is still true; 'you get what you pay for'. Your old, outdated laptop, your questionable taste and talent, and a $99+ program is not going to be a viable substitute for a Genos or PA5x. PLUS, doesn't the primary joy in this business come from PLAYING? JMO.

chas
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#509454 - 01/09/24 10:25 AM Re: Software/Softsynth arrangers versus real ones [Re: Henni]
Henni Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3456
Loc: South Africa
Originally Posted By Gunnar Jonny
There is nothing that BiaB has to offer that can replace my Arranger Keyboards for my use.
NO WAY, because as I see it, BiaB is a PC/Mac software to write in chordprogressions to create backingtracs / playback.
I can imagine that it's a great tool for those who act like karaoke singers, to create studio recordings or for those that don't play any instruments themselves.

When use 'Autocomp Arranger Keyboard' and play live, you're free to improvice and add i.e. lenght to a song on the fly if the crowd, listeners or you want to.
You can even swap song that fit to the style in the middle of a song, or even chose another style and chord in a blink of an eye.
How do you do that with a BiaB mp3?
When playback a mp3 or waw file you're a kind of glued to that recording from start to end.

Btw, is it possible to play and control BiaB live with a midikeyboard?
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#509455 - 01/09/24 10:25 AM Re: Software/Softsynth arrangers versus real ones [Re: Henni]
Henni Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3456
Loc: South Africa
Originally Posted By abacus
Originally Posted By Henni
No one has recorded a hit song using an arranger. But they have using a DAW. So just exactly where do you want to draw the line! Oh yes, I almost forgot: Even a chimp can operate a DAW! It does however take a genius & a pure musician to operate an arranger.

What truly stuns me: This topic is for would be BiaB enthusiasts. Yet it is now being derailed by those who have no interested whatsoever in the subject bar to find a place to dump their uncalled for opinion. It truly must be hard to be so bored with life...


Download a free DAW (Cakewalk by Band Lab is a good one), then use your knowledge of BIAB to create a backing or song, you will find it is nothing like BIAB, so comparing the 2 is just nonsense.

Arranger Keyboards, Organs, Pianos, Synths, Workstations (DAWs) Drum Machines etc. all require knowledge, skill and practice to get something good out of them, not just sticking chords in and letting a computer make something up for you.

BIAB has its place, as has been mentioned as such in many of the replies, so I cannot see what you are getting upset about. (Each to their own)

BTW. Ketron use audio for their styles yes, however they are still styles.

Bill


Bill
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#509456 - 01/09/24 10:26 AM Re: Software/Softsynth arrangers versus real ones [Re: Henni]
Henni Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3456
Loc: South Africa
Originally Posted By Dnj
Originally Posted By cgiles
In my opinion, there is not much creative about jotting down some chords in BIAB (or similar), selecting a style, and hitting PLAY. i'm sure THAT could be done by a well trained chimp (well actually he wouldn't have to be that well trained). Seriously, what Diki said above could certainly be applied if that's your approach to starting a project. In fact, I myself use pre-recorded drum tracks or drum tracks I constructed using drum machine software and I always do this FIRST as I play along in my head. So I guess, in a way, I'm doing the same thing, just to a lesser degree. Where available, I ALWAYS prefer a live drummer, but only if he's good (with time and taste).

Another problem with non-realtime programs like BIAB is the difficulty in using them (or their creations) on a gig. Ignore this if you aren't gigging. What do you do with a request that's not in your song file? Hum it? or maybe call a break and start furiously typing in chords? or just be honest and tell the requester that your computer doesn't know that.....yet. At least with an arranger, if you know it or can quickly bring it up from your digitized fake book, AND can play, you can probably hack it and get that $2.00 tip (that's where those years of music lessons come in) smile .

The point is, no one that can play even a little bit, is ever going to trade in their arranger KB for BIAB. They may buy/use it IN ADDITION TO their keyboard, especially in a way as described in Diki's post. But let's face it; that old adage is still true; 'you get what you pay for'. Your old, outdated laptop, your questionable taste and talent, and a $99+ program is not going to be a viable substitute for a Genos or PA5x. PLUS, doesn't the primary joy in this business come from PLAYING? JMO.

chas


I have to Totally agree with Chas on all his points made..
good post.[color:#FF0000][/color]
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#509459 - 01/09/24 10:50 AM Re: Software/Softsynth arrangers versus real ones [Re: Henni]
Henni Offline
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Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3456
Loc: South Africa
1. Making music the hard way - get a bunch of musicians together & start playing with all the pros & cons that comes with it.

2. Easier way - birth of the arranger. Control your band under your finger tips with all it's pros & cons.

3. Latest trend - Have access to the worlds best musicians and arrange to your hearts content.

4. AI - I predict that this will be expanded enormously in future.

For 3:

1. You have to be computer literate.

2. You have to be super creative as you are putting your band with their skills together - choices literally thousand times more than with any arranger so you need to know what you want.

3. You must know music - music theory might even help.
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#509460 - 01/09/24 11:05 AM Re: Software/Softsynth arrangers versus real ones [Re: Henni]
Henni Offline
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Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3456
Loc: South Africa
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#509466 - 01/09/24 09:05 PM Re: Software/Softsynth arrangers versus real ones [Re: Henni]
Henni Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3456
Loc: South Africa
Yup, just as I expected. There was no real desire to discuss this topic. The ONLY aim was to derail the other thread.

So, why don't one of you start a topic on arrangers in general. Back it up with as many links as I do & also with as many of your own & other's contributions as I do.

Be warned though, this requires a LOT of effort. However, the reward will be a renewed interest in what you REALLY want to discuss.

Nothing comes for free. In stead of trying to stop that which works as a result of the effort being put into it, make a decision to put an effort into backing up what you believe in & promote it with your own sweat like I do. Between all of you you should be able to come up with a lot of material produced by yourselves demonstrating the feautures of the specific product you are using.

I am not trying to pitch BiaB against arrangers as I loved every one of my arrangers (my contributions verify this). Yes, sometimes my enthusiasm gets the better of me.

You say the arranger is the better option & I have absolutely no reason to not believe you. Now back this belief up with a topic of you own on arrangers in general with many, many samples to demonstrate your point. No, this is no contest, it is making others aware of what you believe & as to why you believe it.

And don't be amazed if the interest is re-kindled as a direct result.
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#509471 - 01/10/24 01:04 AM Re: Software/Softsynth arrangers versus real ones [Re: Henni]
abacus Offline
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Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5353
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Starting a new thread and then copy & pasting replies from another thread out of context is meaningless & pointless.
If you are going to start a new thread on a different subject, then do so, but do not transfer over replies from other threads.

Bill
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#509472 - 01/10/24 01:07 AM Re: Software/Softsynth arrangers versus real ones [Re: abacus]
Henni Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3456
Loc: South Africa
Originally Posted By abacus
Starting a new thread and then copy & pasting replies from another thread out of context is meaningless & pointless.
If you are going to start a new thread on a different subject, then do so, but do not transfer over replies from other threads.

Bill


Not a new subject!

I created the ideal thread for you where you can air your opinions without any resistance from anyone. You should thank me instead as you no longer need to troll my thread in order to do so.

But like I said, your main aim was to derail my thread - you never intended to seriously debate your points. You just needed a place to dump your uncalled for opinion on a topic that does not interest you at all.

If not, you would have seized this ideal opportunity to continue airing your point of view.
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#509473 - 01/10/24 02:04 AM Re: Software/Softsynth arrangers versus real ones [Re: Henni]
Gunnar Jonny Offline
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Registered: 04/01/01
Posts: 4334
Loc: Norway
Looks like we have a new moderator and admin here?
Darn how I miss Nigel!

Henni, may I ask, do you use SZ as a marketplace or showroom to sell backingtracks? Asking, because I remember you did so some time ago.

You talking about "mine is better than yours" mentality. But I can not remember see any other members flood the forum with demos of stuff from a certain brand like that you're doing.
A thread to show entusiasm about BiaB including a few demoes and then continue discuss pros and cons contra arranger keyboards is one thing, but it don't look like that is your goal at all other than post as many 'demoes' as possible without interuption.
It may look like you're promoting PG music as well. Do you gain any benefits? 🤔

For those that don't know about it.
Here is PG Musics forum:
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?lang=english
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#509476 - 01/10/24 02:32 AM Re: Software/Softsynth arrangers versus real ones [Re: Gunnar Jonny]
Henni Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3456
Loc: South Africa
Originally Posted By Gunnar Jonny
Looks like we have a new moderator and admin here?
Darn how I miss Nigel!

Henni, may I ask, do you use SZ as a marketplace or showroom to sell backingtracks? Asking, because I remember you did so some time ago.

You talking about "mine is better than yours" mentality. But I can not remember see any other members flood the forum with demos of stuff from a certain brand like that you're doing.
A thread to show entusiasm about BiaB including a few demoes and then continue discuss pros and cons contra arranger keyboards is one thing, but it don't look like that is your goal at all other than post as many 'demoes' as possible without interuption.
It may look like you're promoting PG music as well. Do you gain any benefits? 🤔

For those that don't know about it.
Here is PG Musics forum:
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?lang=english





Originally Posted By Henni
Well Jonny,

Not too much else going on as far as I can tell. So what harm am I causing right now?

Yes, if there was a lot of activity I would completely agree with you. But for the moment...

Henni


In the same way I could post links to Yamaha, Korg & Ketron. Would you be happy with that?

I like AJ VERY much. But is he not also making us aware of his FANTASTIC Ketron update - did you complain at all about that?

And no, PG Music is not even aware of a little "wannabee" like myself. Over the years I've been known over here of promoting things that I find of high value - remember?

Also, do you notice how I update older posts instead so as not to bump up this thread? But tx, you seem to cancel my good intentions by bumping up things so you can complain about it.

Show me a single other thread with so many links in one posting - do you think this just happens by accident?

So when are you starting a topic on general arrangers with as many links as I post? I guarrantee it wil receive many views and a lot of attention. Only prob, it WILL require a lot of effort from yourself. Are you willing to make the sacrifice?

One last thing: As soon as others become bored as you hint, the views will drop & I will no longer give the same attention to update it.
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#509478 - 01/10/24 09:44 AM Re: Software/Softsynth arrangers versus real ones [Re: Henni]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14207
Loc: NW Florida
I am going to lock this thread. Henni, first warning… you want to be a moderator, go start your own forum.

Personally, I think Henni is trying just a bit too hard. Maybe you should try spamming the BIAB forum with examples of what an arranger can do in real-time, see how the members and moderator team react?

We often have discussions about non-arranger music production, but no-one spams the forum with 30+ posts to ‘prove’ their point. Or did you not notice that?

TOPIC CLOSED.
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