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#509302 - 11/28/23 09:45 AM Re: BiaB unique demos [Re: Henni]
GlennT Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 1790
Loc: Medina, OH, USA
What are your thoughts on PowerTracks, also by PG Music? I used BIAB long time ago, then PowerTracks, and now, that I'm older and lazier, Song Galaxy Multi-Tracks by PG Music. Excellent job on presenting a great program, BIAB.

Glenn

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#509308 - 11/30/23 12:08 PM Re: BiaB unique demos [Re: Henni]
Henni Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3456
Loc: South Africa
Hi Glenn,

I have not come across those as yet, so I cannot comment. Tx for making us aware.

Cheers,

Henni
_________________________
Make sure you'll fly forever!

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#509419 - 01/06/24 04:11 AM Re: BiaB unique demos [Re: Henni]
Bernie9 Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5507
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
Hi Henni
There is no question but that the BIAB styles are very good. Would it be safe to say most resulting songs are made by simply copying the chords from a lead sheet, or additional data entered to be more creative?

Bernie
_________________________
pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact

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#509421 - 01/06/24 07:23 AM Re: BiaB unique demos [Re: Henni]
cgiles Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6690
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Originally Posted By Henni
Yes Bernie,



It is really a breeze to create anything.


Henni


"We do this not because it's easy, but because it's hard" --JFK

It's true, BIAB is a remarkable program (totally outclasses any of it's would-be competitors). HOWEVER, what's the goal here? It's like a sophisticated musical game where you can play 'Amazing Grace' as a Jazz Waltz (with virtually no effort on your part). Very few musicians will recognize or acknowledge your talent from a composition you created with BIAB. That's not to say that it has no uses or has no value. It can give you ideas for an arrangement, help you learn a song quickly (if your aim is to actually PLAY it), or even create something that would make the original composer want to kill you smile.

Music is such a personal thing. For me, I'd rather develop a 'signature' sound rather than create something that anyone with a computer and $99 bucks could easily duplicate. But that's just me. Your attitude towards the program and usage of it is 100% valid for YOU. As a novelty program or even as a learning tool, it certainly has value. To make it the primary basis for one's musical endeavors....I'm not so sure. YMMV. I just feel that there is no substitute for putting in the time and effort to learn to play. Arrangers are a step away from that; BIAB is one step further. Some of the BIAB arrangements are very nice; congratulations to the composers and arrangers that created them.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#509422 - 01/06/24 07:34 AM Re: BiaB unique demos [Re: cgiles]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5336
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Originally Posted By cgiles
Originally Posted By Henni
Yes Bernie,



It is really a breeze to create anything.


Henni


"We do this not because it's easy, but because it's hard" --JFK

It's true, BIAB is a remarkable program (totally outclasses any of it's would-be competitors). HOWEVER, what's the goal here? It's like a sophisticated musical game where you can play 'Amazing Grace' as a Jazz Waltz (with virtually no effort on your part). Very few musicians will recognize or acknowledge your talent from a composition you created with BIAB. That's not to say that it has no uses or has no value. It can give you ideas for an arrangement, help you learn a song quickly (if your aim is to actually PLAY it), or even create something that would make the original composer want to kill you smile.

Music is such a personal thing. For me, I'd rather develop a 'signature' sound rather than create something that anyone with a computer and $99 bucks could easily duplicate. But that's just me. Your attitude towards the program and usage of it is 100% valid for YOU. As a novelty program or even as a learning tool, it certainly has value. To make it the primary basis for one's musical endeavors....I'm not so sure. YMMV. I just feel that there is no substitute for putting in the time and effort to learn to play. Arrangers are a step away from that; BIAB is one step further. Some of the BIAB arrangements are very nice; congratulations to the composers and arrangers that created them.

chas


Agree 100%

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#509423 - 01/06/24 08:01 AM Re: BiaB unique demos [Re: abacus]
Henni Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3456
Loc: South Africa
I bet a great many hits being played on the airways were created with BiaB. I know for a fact that some make their career & income from it.

Would love your take on the latest music created with the help of AI - the "artists/musicians" are making a killing with it. No use kicking against the pricks. We are old - some of us even gone. On PSRTutorial they are discussing the trend of arrangers when we old folks are gone and they are 100% correct. The world & it's technology moves on regardless of our personal opinion.

We had it our way & now it's their turn & BiaB definitely caters for moving in that direction.

One thing I'll state: I am having more fun with BiaB than with anything else till now. And I thoroughly enjoyed ALL of my arrangers as well as my many contributions for every one of those arrangers. But then, that's ME! Most of these folks perform regularly as one man bands and notice how they use BiaB for that purpose. This planet is certainly filled with all sorts of musicians and to each his own - as long as we have fun!

I see no reason to critisize others for the specific method they choose to live out their talents.

And then a final thought - I would LOVE to see more post their music that they created with their specific instruments of choice over here to inspire the rest of us. Bar AJ, why do I feel so alone in doing so? There ought to be many more topics like this one highlighting all the other great instruments being used out there.

Would it not be great if one of you would start a topic for i.e. ALL the arrangers where others are encouraged to post their renditions of their models over here. Nice & neat & all in one topic for all to follow. I suggest keeping it in MP3 format with links to i.e. Boxnet like I do in order not to use up all bandwidth over here.

Anyways, just an idea...
_________________________
Make sure you'll fly forever!

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#509426 - 01/08/24 03:07 AM Re: BiaB unique demos [Re: Henni]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5336
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Originally Posted By Henni
I bet a great many hits being played on the airways were created with BiaB. I know for a fact that some make their career & income from it.

Would love your take on the latest music created with the help of AI - the "artists/musicians" are making a killing with it. No use kicking against the pricks. We are old - some of us even gone. On PSRTutorial they are discussing the trend of arrangers when we old folks are gone and they are 100% correct. The world & it's technology moves on regardless of our personal opinion.

We had it our way & now it's their turn & BiaB definitely caters for moving in that direction.

One thing I'll state: I am having more fun with BiaB than with anything else till now. And I thoroughly enjoyed ALL of my arrangers as well as my many contributions for every one of those arrangers. But then, that's ME! Most of these folks perform regularly as one man bands and notice how they use BiaB for that purpose. This planet is certainly filled with all sorts of musicians and to each his own - as long as we have fun!

I see no reason to critisize others for the specific method they choose to live out their talents.

And then a final thought - I would LOVE to see more post their music that they created with their specific instruments of choice over here to inspire the rest of us. Bar AJ, why do I feel so alone in doing so? There ought to be many more topics like this one highlighting all the other great instruments being used out there.

Would it not be great if one of you would start a topic for i.e. ALL the arrangers where others are encouraged to post their renditions of their models over here. Nice & neat & all in one topic for all to follow. I suggest keeping it in MP3 format with links to i.e. Boxnet like I do in order not to use up all bandwidth over here.

Anyways, just an idea...


Technology is a great servant, but a very bad master, hence if you go back to the various times when technology ruled in music, the music sucked and became the equivalent of Karaoke, fortunately (As usual) musicianship came back, and music moved forward.

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#509427 - 01/08/24 10:43 AM Re: BiaB unique demos [Re: Henni]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14172
Loc: NW Florida
I think that any form of auto accompaniment has an important role for the solo musician…

Not to be included in the final mix, but as an inspiring starting place for you to be able to play without that dreaded ‘blank paper’ moment early in production. Usually, in studio work, the rhythm section is tracked as a whole, and then sweetening is added afterwards. But the solo musician, if he doesn’t use accompaniment tools, has to lay down each part (especially the first couple of rhythm) without the benefit of anything else to play WITH, and it’s that interaction that leads to a more cohesive performance.

So I’ve no problem with their place in the studio or backing track preparation. But…

The magic that is humans playing real music is generally (hopefully!) far superior to machines playing little chunks that are stitched together using one system or another. The subtle variations that humans impart is something that may sometimes be difficult to hear but is obvious in its absence.

Now yes, we’ve had 20 years of dance music that WAS originally created using repetitive loops, and if that’s what you’re trying to do the machine deserves its spot in the final mix. But if you’re trying to make music based on an older aesthetic, it deserves to be through played, from beginning to end, like the original.

Generally, I love auto accompaniment to get the ball rolling, but gradually each part gets replaced by a played part, whether by me or a studio musician. I think it’s worth the time…
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#509429 - 01/08/24 11:41 AM Re: BiaB unique demos [Re: Diki]
Henni Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3456
Loc: South Africa
1. The ONLY difference between BiaB and an arranger is that one operates in realtime & the other not.

2. So EVERYTHING stated in the last few posts apply equally to the arranger as well.

3. The Ketron Event is the best attempt to date to merge these two technologies.

4. You guys AMAZE me with your "wisdom". And you should really consider pulling your review. Too automated for use by a pure musician...

5. You should also really post more of your creations over here instead like I do. That way others will be inspired by your contributions.
_________________________
Make sure you'll fly forever!

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#509430 - 01/08/24 12:38 PM Re: BiaB unique demos [Re: Henni]
cgiles Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6690
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
In my opinion, there is not much creative about jotting down some chords in BIAB (or similar), selecting a style, and hitting PLAY. i'm sure THAT could be done by a well trained chimp (well actually he wouldn't have to be that well trained). Seriously, what Diki said above could certainly be applied if that's your approach to starting a project. In fact, I myself use pre-recorded drum tracks or drum tracks I constructed using drum machine software and I always do this FIRST as I play along in my head. So I guess, in a way, I'm doing the same thing, just to a lesser degree. Where available, I ALWAYS prefer a live drummer, but only if he's good (with time and taste).

Another problem with non-realtime programs like BIAB is the difficulty in using them (or their creations) on a gig. Ignore this if you aren't gigging. What do you do with a request that's not in your song file? Hum it? or maybe call a break and start furiously typing in chords? or just be honest and tell the requester that your computer doesn't know that.....yet. At least with an arranger, if you know it or can quickly bring it up from your digitized fake book, AND can play, you can probably hack it and get that $2.00 tip (that's where those years of music lessons come in) smile .

The point is, no one that can play even a little bit, is ever going to trade in their arranger KB for BIAB. They may buy/use it IN ADDITION TO their keyboard, especially in a way as described in Diki's post. But let's face it; that old adage is still true; 'you get what you pay for'. Your old, outdated laptop, your questionable taste and talent, and a $99+ program is not going to be a viable substitute for a Genos or PA5x. PLUS, doesn't the primary joy in this business come from PLAYING? JMO.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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