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#506740 - 10/07/22 11:36 AM Re: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming. [Re: Ketron_AJ]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14211
Loc: NW Florida
To a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Sokratis creates styles. For a living. Most of us don’t.

But nearly all of us have at one time or another tried using a slightly different sound in a style, change a Strat to a jazz guitar, an acoustic to a 12 string, a banjo to a mandolin. A rock kit to a jazz kit, a pop kit to a brushes kit. With most non-audio arrangers this is easy. And utterly IMPOSSIBLE with an audio loop.

Some of us had a song to play that needed a slightly different kick drum pattern. It doesn’t take long to move the hit to the better position. Nowhere near as long as creating a style from scratch! Again, impossible with a loop.

As I alluded to earlier, claiming that you can always substitute a MIDI guitar pattern for the audio one you want to change will OF COURSE result in an inferior sound. If it didn’t, there would be no benefit to the loops in the first place.

We’ve had audio loop arrangers for over a decade. They have still failed to address the issue of limited chord choice and ineditability. It’s hard baked into the process.

Don’t get me wrong, if you’re the kind of player that wouldn’t know how to finger a diminished chord or an augmented in the first place and want something that sounds amazing, Ketron seems right up your street. But what bothers me is, this thing seems designed and priced for people with a high degree of technical skill, a desire to use loops and the knowledge of how to do so. A true ‘musician’s musician’ tool. A highly technical, advanced arranger with true 21st century features. Designed and priced for the advanced professional and home player.

But without the ability to use chords that the majority of ‘musicians’ musicians’ would want and need from time to time. That’s a fundamental issue that not even the beginner player would accept in a traditional MIDI arranger, but somehow Ketron want us to accept in something that is TOTL priced. If a Genos or a PA5X couldn’t play extended chords, how many customers would buy one?

Ketron is gambling on ‘most of them’. I have my doubts…
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#506743 - 10/07/22 01:25 PM Re: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming. [Re: Diki]
Ketron_AJ Offline
Moderator

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3590
Loc: Middletown, DE
Originally Posted By Diki
To a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Sokratis creates styles. For a living. Most of us don’t.

But nearly all of us have at one time or another tried using a slightly different sound in a style, change a Strat to a jazz guitar, an acoustic to a 12 string, a banjo to a mandolin. A rock kit to a jazz kit, a pop kit to a brushes kit. With most non-audio arrangers this is easy. And utterly IMPOSSIBLE with an audio loop.

Some of us had a song to play that needed a slightly different kick drum pattern. It doesn’t take long to move the hit to the better position. Nowhere near as long as creating a style from scratch! Again, impossible with a loop.

As I alluded to earlier, claiming that you can always substitute a MIDI guitar pattern for the audio one you want to change will OF COURSE result in an inferior sound. If it didn’t, there would be no benefit to the loops in the first place.

We’ve had audio loop arrangers for over a decade. They have still failed to address the issue of limited chord choice and ineditability. It’s hard baked into the process.

Don’t get me wrong, if you’re the kind of player that wouldn’t know how to finger a diminished chord or an augmented in the first place and want something that sounds amazing, Ketron seems right up your street. But what bothers me is, this thing seems designed and priced for people with a high degree of technical skill, a desire to use loops and the knowledge of how to do so. A true ‘musician’s musician’ tool. A highly technical, advanced arranger with true 21st century features. Designed and priced for the advanced professional and home player.

But without the ability to use chords that the majority of ‘musicians’ musicians’ would want and need from time to time. That’s a fundamental issue that not even the beginner player would accept in a traditional MIDI arranger, but somehow Ketron want us to accept in something that is TOTL priced. If a Genos or a PA5X couldn’t play extended chords, how many customers would buy one?

Ketron is gambling on ‘most of them’. I have my doubts…


I want to break this down again so the average reader reading this does not leave with the impression that an AUDIO Live Arranger such as the forthcoming EVENT is limited to playing/recognizing limited chords.

"But without the ability to use chords that the majority of ‘musicians’ musicians’ would want and need from time to time"

In the case of the AUDYA and SD9 Pro, there was no room to create nor input new Audio Guitars (or other Audio) that can respond to chord changes, and so the above statement is valid for those units only. This has been vastly updated in the EVENT such that the limit is only due to lack of KETRON, 3rd Party Style creators, or you the user inputting the chord variations. I know for a fact that with EVENT, KETRON is going more than just chord tonalities of major, minor and 7th. Again to clarify, the EVENT is capable of responding to ALL chord changes within ALL keys. The limitation is populating all the chord tables with content which either KETRON or you can do (in the case of AUDYA and SD9, only KETRON and some of their engineers like us could) and thus these units did have the limitation the above writeup is alluding to.

Thanks
_________________________
[KETRON - USA]
Design Engineer & Product Specialist.
www.KetronAmerica.com

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#506744 - 10/07/22 01:30 PM Re: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming. [Re: rikkisbears]
Ketron_AJ Offline
Moderator

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3590
Loc: Middletown, DE
Originally Posted By rikkisbears
Sadly , couldn’t buy a Ketron, here in Aust. even if I wanted . Had an sd1, a long time back, from there it went downhill.
I think the only store that sells them over here , has a Ketron Audya 4 module and a Ketron sd3 for sale on their website, as far as I can tell, that’s it.
Guessing the brand is just not popular enough over here.🥲


Reach out to us diretly at Ajaminc@Gmail.com
We have a few customers in AUSI land whom we have worked with on KETRON products up to the latest KETRON SD9 Pro AjamSonic. We can help get a unit to you if interested.

Thanks,
_________________________
[KETRON - USA]
Design Engineer & Product Specialist.
www.KetronAmerica.com

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#506745 - 10/07/22 01:30 PM Re: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming. [Re: Ketron_AJ]
Ketron_AJ Offline
Moderator

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3590
Loc: Middletown, DE
And when the old sometimes outsmarts the new:- https://youtu.be/zMg0hq1wrWc
_________________________
[KETRON - USA]
Design Engineer & Product Specialist.
www.KetronAmerica.com

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#506751 - 10/07/22 10:10 PM Re: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming. [Re: Diki]
Sokratis 1974 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 793
Loc: Hellas, Creta, Iraklion
Originally Posted By Diki
To a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Sokratis creates styles. For a living. Most of us don’t.

But nearly all of us have at one time or another tried using a slightly different sound in a style, change a Strat to a jazz guitar, an acoustic to a 12 string, a banjo to a mandolin. A rock kit to a jazz kit, a pop kit to a brushes kit. With most non-audio arrangers this is easy. And utterly IMPOSSIBLE with an audio loop.

Some of us had a song to play that needed a slightly different kick drum pattern. It doesn’t take long to move the hit to the better position. Nowhere near as long as creating a style from scratch! Again, impossible with a loop.

As I alluded to earlier, claiming that you can always substitute a MIDI guitar pattern for the audio one you want to change will OF COURSE result in an inferior sound. If it didn’t, there would be no benefit to the loops in the first place.

We’ve had audio loop arrangers for over a decade. They have still failed to address the issue of limited chord choice and ineditability. It’s hard baked into the process.

Don’t get me wrong, if you’re the kind of player that wouldn’t know how to finger a diminished chord or an augmented in the first place and want something that sounds amazing, Ketron seems right up your street. But what bothers me is, this thing seems designed and priced for people with a high degree of technical skill, a desire to use loops and the knowledge of how to do so. A true ‘musician’s musician’ tool. A highly technical, advanced arranger with true 21st century features. Designed and priced for the advanced professional and home player.

But without the ability to use chords that the majority of ‘musicians’ musicians’ would want and need from time to time. That’s a fundamental issue that not even the beginner player would accept in a traditional MIDI arranger, but somehow Ketron want us to accept in something that is TOTL priced. If a Genos or a PA5X couldn’t play extended chords, how many customers would buy one?

Ketron is gambling on ‘most of them’. I have my doubts…

Dear Diki.
I guess I should say that again.
The audio part in all Ketron models is just a supplement to the midi which, as I have explained quite analytically, is also doing great in this area.
In Event one above this (the audio) expands to a very large extent since it also has an audio bass (Real Bass) which if we want to exchange it with the midi bass as well as there is also an audio chord (Real Chord) which is completely new and has nothing to do with the particularly limited and old Live Guitar of Audya and SD9.
Also, as Ketron has always done, here too available to the user a really huge library of new audio riffs that respond to particularly extended chords where through the Style Modeling we can have a different real chord in each Variation of course and Intro, Ending.
And let's also not forget that now enough people know how to handle computers and consequently DAW (Cubase, Logic, Reaper etc) so he knows how to handle and vst.
It is therefore very easy to create our own audio parts (guitars and whatnot) which in conjunction with the midi really makes the difference.
And for you to understand I am attaching a small video excerpt from a mainly experimental Intro audio part I made which will probably eventually be completed as a full audio style for the Event.
https://app.box.com/s/ko02ytdoe39sfn9efggn4flognaj30kp

So see what these (supplementary) audio channels can do which can (accommodate) anything that crosses our mind.
The only limitation is our imagination.
Of course this takes time and effort but the tools are here and Ketron now generously provides them to the user from day one. From then on it is up to each user to create whatever they want as long as they want.
Personally, I consider it a particularly important development and I don't think it will not be long for other companies to imitate it.
Besides, let's not forget that Yamaha also clearly hinted with those three mysterious videos with the Berlin Philharmonic and Alex Christensen from the Genos campaign that something like this was planned but never materialized until now at Genos.
https://youtu.be/jHdbmEGyyNg

At least I (and perhaps many others) have not made any sense of the company's advertisement at the time in the videos it launched the campaign with the title: Genos in action.
But it doesn't make any sense because there is neither any style of Genos in this video (if we assume that something like that was implied) nor any sound that would refer you to Genos and don't forget that I also have 4 years now the Genos thing that gives me the right to know too well (every bit of it).
I am attaching 1 of those three mysterious videos and anyone who has the patience to look through the comments will see the wondering comments of Yamaha users.
I distinctly remember a comment saying: I don't understand... I was on Yamaha's website and I saw the video that says (Genos in action) and I see all these absolutely amazing results. What does this have to do with Genos..
Further down there is still the discussion that has started that possibly Genos brings a new technology with Audio phrases..
In the end there was never any answer.. Who knows what happened. And also I don't know how many of you know that Yamaha has registered since March 2012 (and this continued with further additions to the patent until the end of 2015) a special patent for this purpose. That is, for automatic audio accompaniment.
I happen to have in my possession the full detailed text of the patent which is not hidden, it is listed on a special site but I would not like to share the link to avoid confusion.
_________________________
Style Producer
Ketron Event, Ketron Audya 76, Audya 5, SD9, SD1,Yamaha Genos, Korg Pa3x, microarranger, Roland Fantom G6, V-Synth XT, XV-5080, SH201, D-50, Novation KS4, Dave Smith Evolver

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#506754 - 10/08/22 09:02 AM Re: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming. [Re: Ketron_AJ]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14211
Loc: NW Florida
I have already alluded to how in the past Ketron extends the range of chord choices beyond the actually recorded ones.

If the chord you want is an extension of a chord already recorded, like a C6, C9 Cadd2, Cmin(maj7th) etc. the solution in the past has been to add a MIDI guitar note or two to the recorded pattern. So you don’t have what a guitarist would play for the C6, you have what a guitarist would play for a plain Cmaj with an extra note overdubbed. A 7 string guitar playing a chord shape that wouldn’t be played on a 7 string guitar…

If the chord is a chord that can’t be derived from the basic changes recorded, a diminished, an augmented, a half diminished etc, an entire MIDI guitar pattern is substituted, with a jump in sound and quality (because if the MIDI guitar part sounded as good as the audio loop, why use the loops at all?).

I have NEVER said the Ketron’s can’t play these chords at all. I have simply said that when you do, you will hear a noticeable change from the basic audio loop.

Now, if Ketron have managed to pull off a real-time Celemony Melodyne process (which actually CAN change notes within an audio chord using a computer) now’s the time to bring it up. Actually, if this had been achieved, I am sure that this would have been mentioned. To my knowledge, no one including Celemony themselves have managed to pull this off as a real-time effect. We’ve probably got a couple more CPU generations to go before this might be possible. And probably even longer before it trickles down to the RISC chips that power arrangers.

So, to reiterate (not that I believe that AJ didn’t understand in the first place, he’s just naturally trying to put a positive spin on the product he’s selling) I am NOT saying the Ketron can’t play any chord you throw at it.

I am saying that when you ask for a chord beyond the basic selection recorded as loops, you ARE going to hear something a bit jarring, and something that isn’t what a guitarist could or would play.

And I’m pretty sure that most everyone here understood that in the first place…
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#506756 - 10/08/22 11:22 AM Re: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming. [Re: Ketron_AJ]
groovyband.live Offline
Member

Registered: 09/02/19
Posts: 64
To sum up.

The upcoming new TOTL Ketron arranger (probably retailing at 4÷5 k€) is basically the old well known midi arranger + some not well specified audio loops capabilities built-in.

The midi part has roughly the same specification of a PSR 1500 of 2004, or, speaking of current day arrangers, a Yamaha SX 600 (~750€).

The audio part consists of a few loops (how many not specified) that can only play at a fixed tempo and that are provided only for a few simple chords (not specified). It is safe to assume that chord inversions are NOT played by audio loops, as well as many common chords found in most printed scores (such as augmented, diminished, M7, 6, and all their combinations). Of course the instrument is fixed, as well as the effect(s) applied (backed in during the recording).
If you play a chord not available in audio probably the arranger will substitute it with a midi pattern, that will be (totally/noticeably) different from the audio loop (groove, instrument, effect), probably leading to a poor/unacceptable result.
For those willing to hire a band, a recording studio, a composer, and have plenty of time to spare, there is the possibility to develop their own audio styles (Ketron did not bother to make).

This is how I understood the whole new product being launched.
For me the audio part is totally useless, and considering the remaining midi part (as well as the much greater availability of midi styles), probably a humble SX 600 (same firmware as Genos) is much more bang for the buck! YMMV.

And by the way, an SX 600 can also be greatly improved by pairing it with our software arranger (free demo available) .....


Edited by groovyband.live (10/08/22 11:23 AM)
_________________________
Groovyband Live! - Realtime Arranger Software

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#506759 - 10/08/22 07:48 PM Re: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming. [Re: Ketron_AJ]
Ketron_AJ Offline
Moderator

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3590
Loc: Middletown, DE
How to ADD/Use Audio to/with styles:- https://youtu.be/5Z11Sx5qICI
_________________________
[KETRON - USA]
Design Engineer & Product Specialist.
www.KetronAmerica.com

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#506761 - 10/08/22 09:02 PM Re: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming. [Re: Ketron_AJ]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14211
Loc: NW Florida
Sorry Groovyband, but you need to be more accurate when trying to put a competitor’s product down. The Ketron is quite capable of changing tempo on the audio loop. Not perhaps as much as a MIDI only arranger, but AJ and Sokratis are correct in saying tempo is adjustable. Probably as much as is likely to be practical (most MIDI styles sound stupid at more than 25% up or down from nominal as well). And I would like to hear why the comparison to a decades old arranger at the MUDI end of things..?

In fairness, ALL hardware arrangers are stuck in pretty much the same 4 Variations, 4-6 fills, 3-4 Intros and endings paradigm, including Genos and PA4X (although PA5x’s ‘two styles at a time, when finally fixed, offers the prospect of double this). You want to not sound petty, acknowledge that the MIDI end of things is on a par with the latest arrangers, minus the guitar mode capabilities.

And while 4 effect seems a bit light, it was all a PA4X had until the new model. And more than a PSRS950. So, you want to make disparaging comparisons, there’s no need to use a decades old model. The new Ketron’s MIDI arranger is comparable to arrangers only a year or two old.

I would prefer if acknowledged vendors don’t spam each other’s threads, you certainly don’t want AJ coming over to your threads and pointing out the advantages their new arranger may have over your product. Let’s keep it civil.

Thank you.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#506764 - 10/08/22 10:11 PM Re: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming. [Re: Ketron_AJ]
Sokratis 1974 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 793
Loc: Hellas, Creta, Iraklion
Thank you very much dear Diki for your fair intervention.
I would just like to say that I personally have learned in my life not to condemn something that I have no knowledge of. But when the time is right (and I now have the right and freedom) I will say and analyze things. From then on it is up to everyone to judge and utilize.
_________________________
Style Producer
Ketron Event, Ketron Audya 76, Audya 5, SD9, SD1,Yamaha Genos, Korg Pa3x, microarranger, Roland Fantom G6, V-Synth XT, XV-5080, SH201, D-50, Novation KS4, Dave Smith Evolver

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