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#506707 - 10/05/22 11:11 AM Re: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming. [Re: Ingres]
Diki Online   content


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14203
Loc: NW Florida
Originally Posted By Ingres
Thanks for clarifying, as far as you are allowed to at this moment.


Everyone is ‘allowed’ to comment all they want to here, with the exception (which you crossed) of personal insults to other members. That this hasn’t sunk in brings up some questions about your ability to read English…
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#506709 - 10/05/22 11:59 AM Re: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming. [Re: Diki]
Ingres Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/14
Posts: 86
Loc: FWI
... rolleyes
1 for your information, English is not my native language ...
2 I was speaking of what informations Ketron allows AJ and Sokratis to divulgate at this time, before launching
... sorry if it was not clear...


Edited by Ingres (10/05/22 12:01 PM)
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#506711 - 10/05/22 12:11 PM Re: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming. [Re: Ketron_AJ]
Diki Online   content


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14203
Loc: NW Florida
Understood. Thanks for clarifying that.
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#506712 - 10/05/22 12:17 PM Re: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming. [Re: Diki]
Ingres Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/14
Posts: 86
Loc: FWI
Originally Posted By Diki
Originally Posted By Ingres
Thanks for clarifying, as far as you are allowed to at this moment.


Everyone is ‘allowed’ to comment all they want to here, with the exception (which you crossed) of personal insults to other members. That this hasn’t sunk in brings up some questions about your ability to read English

...
and I didn't even take your remark as an insult smile
_________________________
from now on, on some forums, I make a screen copy... in case... time will tell
imagine some people you know having more power...luckily God knows best! Take it easy ... and funny!

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#506714 - 10/05/22 12:20 PM Re: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming. [Re: Ketron_AJ]
Diki Online   content


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14203
Loc: NW Florida
It wasn’t intended as one. But thank you for your apology on the earlier post.

Oh, wait…
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#506719 - 10/05/22 01:55 PM Re: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming. [Re: Ketron_AJ]
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Sadly , couldn’t buy a Ketron, here in Aust. even if I wanted . Had an sd1, a long time back, from there it went downhill.
I think the only store that sells them over here , has a Ketron Audya 4 module and a Ketron sd3 for sale on their website, as far as I can tell, that’s it.
Guessing the brand is just not popular enough over here.🥲
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Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
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#506722 - 10/06/22 12:45 AM Re: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming. [Re: Ketron_AJ]
groovyband.live Offline
Member

Registered: 09/02/19
Posts: 64
Originally Posted By Ketron_AJ
So if you have a keyboard that can play 6 audio tracks that has 128 notes assigned to Midi playback, that is a HUGE leap forward in today's technology, especially when it can play that AS AN ARRANGER in conjunction with any style (chord changes in real-time, tempo changes in real-time), a feature no PSR to date can do effortlessly, and so while the technology in many Midi Based Arranger may be outdated, those in the Hybrid Arrangers are just beginning to show their "strengths" and yes, weaknesses too.


Playing pre-recorded audio tracks is computationally the LEAST EXPENSIVE operation you can do with audio. Every DAW allows you to render to audio every track in order to reduce CPU load and hence let your computer play more tracks than it would otherwise be possible. This of course has huge downsides (and is therefore a last resort decision when you run out of better options). When you lose the midi to audio real time computation, you are stuck with a fixed outcome you cannot anymore modify, neither in real time, nor once for all at the beginning.
You cannot change the patch, the sound parameters (filter, ADSR, .....), effects, note velocity, tempo, ... whatever! It is like having a few CDs vs a real instrument. With the CDs you can listen over and over again to the same immutable songs; with the instrument you can play all the songs you want, with no limits.
At least with a DAW, although inconvenient, you can change the parameters and re-render the track(s) to audio. With a Ketron arranger you can NOT send the arranger back to Ketron and have it reflashed with the new parameters. Can you? Would it be convenient?
Is this a "HUGE leap forward in today's technology"? I do not think so. It sounds more like a two steps back from 1980's technology.

Additionally it is not clear how many audio patterns you have (I think this is intentional, not to scare potential buyers). In a midi based arranger you have not less than 20 chord shapes x 12 keys x 3 inversions x 4 variations x 8 parts x 500 styles x 1000 sounds x countless effects x all the tweaks you want apply to each parameter.
You can make all the multiplications and have an idea. How many choices do you have with Ketron audio tracks?

And even worse, if I am playing a C chord (C + E + G) and then I play (G + C + E) do I hear something happening or not? And then if a play (G# + C + E) is there something happening or not? If I change the tempo from 100 bpm to 50 bpm or 150 bpm what happens? If I want to experiment with more/less distortion to the guitar? If I want a chorused clean guitar (+ delay) instead of a distorted one?

Every midi based arranger can easily cope with all this, I would like to HEAR the audio output of a Ketron arranger (while featuring the advertised audio tracks) in these basic scenarios.


Edited by groovyband.live (10/06/22 12:48 AM)
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#506726 - 10/06/22 11:31 AM Re: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming. [Re: Ketron_AJ]
Diki Online   content


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14203
Loc: NW Florida
The stinger for me in the audio loop/guitar mode debate is, okay, let’s say you’ve got some absolutely AMAZING sounding guitar parts in styles using the loops. But you’ve got limited chord choice. And you’ve got a huge collection of legacy styles without the loops.

So now you’ve got a huge jump in quality of backing between those audio loop styles, and everything else you need to play. One minute you sound great, the next minute, you don’t. And there’s nothing much you can do about it. Other than stop playing the tunes and styles that force you to use the MIDI guitars. Or stop playing the styles that show up the rest of your styles.

Consistency… that’s what you get with a well developed guitar mode. Your old styles sound as good as your new ones (as long as you assign the Parts to the best new sounds and kits) and ALL your new styles sound equally good.

As a performer, that’s what I’m looking for. I don’t want to blow everyone away one style and be Ho-hum the next. I don’t want to start substituting simpler (wrong) chords just so the arranger doesn’t jump to a mismatched MIDI guitar part for that chord it hasn’t recorded.

Consistency…
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#506733 - 10/07/22 12:08 AM Re: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming. [Re: Ketron_AJ]
Sokratis 1974 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 793
Loc: Hellas, Creta, Iraklion
Originally Posted By groovyband.live
Originally Posted By Ketron_AJ
So if you have a keyboard that can play 6 audio tracks that has 128 notes assigned to Midi playback, that is a HUGE leap forward in today's technology, especially when it can play that AS AN ARRANGER in conjunction with any style (chord changes in real-time, tempo changes in real-time), a feature no PSR to date can do effortlessly, and so while the technology in many Midi Based Arranger may be outdated, those in the Hybrid Arrangers are just beginning to show their "strengths" and yes, weaknesses too.


Playing pre-recorded audio tracks is computationally the LEAST EXPENSIVE operation you can do with audio. Every DAW allows you to render to audio every track in order to reduce CPU load and hence let your computer play more tracks than it would otherwise be possible. This of course has huge downsides (and is therefore a last resort decision when you run out of better options). When you lose the midi to audio real time computation, you are stuck with a fixed outcome you cannot anymore modify, neither in real time, nor once for all at the beginning.
You cannot change the patch, the sound parameters (filter, ADSR, .....), effects, note velocity, tempo, ... whatever! It is like having a few CDs vs a real instrument. With the CDs you can listen over and over again to the same immutable songs; with the instrument you can play all the songs you want, with no limits.
At least with a DAW, although inconvenient, you can change the parameters and re-render the track(s) to audio. With a Ketron arranger you can NOT send the arranger back to Ketron and have it reflashed with the new parameters. Can you? Would it be convenient?
Is this a "HUGE leap forward in today's technology"? I do not think so. It sounds more like a two steps back from 1980's technology.

Additionally it is not clear how many audio patterns you have (I think this is intentional, not to scare potential buyers). In a midi based arranger you have not less than 20 chord shapes x 12 keys x 3 inversions x 4 variations x 8 parts x 500 styles x 1000 sounds x countless effects x all the tweaks you want apply to each parameter.
You can make all the multiplications and have an idea. How many choices do you have with Ketron audio tracks?

And even worse, if I am playing a C chord (C + E + G) and then I play (G + C + E) do I hear something happening or not? And then if a play (G# + C + E) is there something happening or not? If I change the tempo from 100 bpm to 50 bpm or 150 bpm what happens? If I want to experiment with more/less distortion to the guitar? If I want a chorused clean guitar (+ delay) instead of a distorted one?

Every midi based arranger can easily cope with all this, I would like to HEAR the audio output of a Ketron arranger (while featuring the advertised audio tracks) in these basic scenarios.

I have the impression that you have misunderstood a few things. Event, like all Ketron arrangers, does not remove midi.
Yes, the company gives more emphasis for Audio Styles but that doesn't mean the midi is done away with.
I would say the opposite.
As a user and professional style producer, I have experience and have instruments from all three remaining arranger companies and I have the models available:
Yamaha Genos, Ketron Audya, SD9, SD1, Korg Pa3x, and I have enough experience in the new Pa5x I had it for a long time on trial from a known e-shop.
Ketron especially with the new Event combines two worlds (audio and midi) in a very simple way that even a user with very little experience can build his own Midi or Audio or a combination of the two with the system that exists from Audya and is called STYLE MODELING.
It's probably the most exciting idea I've come across in recent years, and I'm discovering more and more that there are a lot of people who have no idea of its existence and of the masterful and simple way it works.
But since you are talking about midi, I will also tell you my reasoning.
I would agree with your spirit about the editability that an absolute midi arranger provides.
But you will allow me to say that in its entirety this only applies to of her arrangers Korg & Ketron.
Surely you're terribly impressed that I'm leaving Yamaha out?
Yes. You didn't read wrong.
I'm leaving Yamaha out even though I know their midi style file of Yamaha (SFF1, SFF2) is a very feature rich midi style file.
So really.
Have you ever tried on a Yamaha arranger (as I see your item is a Yamaha) to build a style (from scratch) just to see what difficulties you would run into?
I don't know about you but I found it in front of me and I didn't believe that there were such stupid restrictions from the company.
And I will be more specific.

1) Have you ever tried to build a style either in a daw or onboard which you can record Sustain messages?
What could be simpler and more normal than that?
Even if we records this very important message of expression it will be erased when we convert it to .STY the Sustain message will be erased.

2) Have you tried in a style to change an octave of a sound in a Yamaha Arranger?
Please try it. If you find a way to do it (without possibly the help of some third party software) tell me and I'll find out.

3) Have you ever tried making different version chords in Intro, End, etc.?
Try it and if you find any way (outside of third party software again) or if you find an easy way as it happens in Korg & Ketron please tell me so I can get to know it too.

4) Have you ever tried editing (on board) a factory style?
It's simply forbidden because the only option we have is to delete the channel.

5) Have you ever tried without having to go into the style creator to change a drum sound or change volumes, pans, effects, etc. while the style is actually playing?

6) Have you ever tried creating a style with a different signature value or a different tempo on each beat directly back into the instrument with absolutely no help from third party software?

So do you know that all this and much more is also provided in Ketron's cheapest model?
And since you're talking about midi. Find me a company that provides Compress Velocity directly from the mixer?
Are there any companies? Yes, and his name is Ketron.

And since we're talking about midi again, do you know any companies that just copy/paste a midi file (with a single phrase track chanel ) on Modeling Folder can we just select it in any midi channel of the style we want and without a trace of processing it will play and follow the style as if it were an integral part of the style?
Yes, and his name is Ketron.

Can you tell me of a company that provides you with thousands of ready-made midi-style phrases (Piano, Guitar, Synth Arpeggios, Strings, Synth Pads and too more) that you can open individually on any style channel (without any edit) you wish, with the possibility of a completely separate selection for each Variation?
I will tell you a company that can and does this.
Yes, and his name is Ketron.

Can you find me a company that has a completely different mix, different sounds (midi and audio) with different settings in each variation even in the effects, even in the Midi Drums settings dirrectly from mixer?
Yes, I know, and it is also called Ketron.
Hmmm not bad at all I would say Ketron also in midi.
And where to see what's coming with the Event again in the midi. For now, of course, I cannot say anything more about the Event, but we will say that when there is an official announcement.
And what I haven't said about the midi possibilities on Ketron are really still too many and at some point I have to go into the studio because I have a lot of work waiting for me.
Finally, I would like to make a comment regarding the concerns you raised with the Audio.
So the Event brings something really new and wonderful which will be a wonderful complement to the midi and believe me it will take the creativity to other levels.
Of course, everything has its positives and negatives.
Ketron, however, in a really wonderful way, leaves the user in absolute freedom to be in control and choose in a really ridiculously easy way what to do.
I don't want to take the discussion elsewhere and I'm not changing the subject, but I see that many of you have the impression that Ketron only provides audio and that the midi (suffers).
But one more thing. You are talking about the fact of the deviation +- of the tempo.
You are not wrong that obviously the results (in audio) of such a deviation will be disastrous.
However.. Sorry, but why should I lower a style from 100 to 50? In the 32 years I've been working exclusively with arrangers, I've never had to do this because, for example, a samba styles with orgiginal tempo100bpm if I play it at 50bpm then it just won't be a Samba anymore but something different.
if I insist on this it goes to say that I have selected the wrong style. This is my opinion.
I would therefore suggest that we do not rush to condemn something when we probably do not know the depth of the facts.
All this always with a friendly attitude and respecting every point of view.


Edited by Sokratis 1974 (10/07/22 12:58 AM)
_________________________
Style Producer
Ketron Event, Ketron Audya 76, Audya 5, SD9, SD1,Yamaha Genos, Korg Pa3x, microarranger, Roland Fantom G6, V-Synth XT, XV-5080, SH201, D-50, Novation KS4, Dave Smith Evolver

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#506734 - 10/07/22 12:49 AM Re: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming. [Re: Sokratis 1974]
Ketron_AJ Offline
Moderator

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3585
Loc: Middletown, DE
Originally Posted By Sokratis 1974
Originally Posted By groovyband.live
Originally Posted By Ketron_AJ
So if you have a keyboard that can play 6 audio tracks that has 128 notes assigned to Midi playback, that is a HUGE leap forward in today's technology, especially when it can play that AS AN ARRANGER in conjunction with any style (chord changes in real-time, tempo changes in real-time), a feature no PSR to date can do effortlessly, and so while the technology in many Midi Based Arranger may be outdated, those in the Hybrid Arrangers are just beginning to show their "strengths" and yes, weaknesses too.


Playing pre-recorded audio tracks is computationally the LEAST EXPENSIVE operation you can do with audio. Every DAW allows you to render to audio every track in order to reduce CPU load and hence let your computer play more tracks than it would otherwise be possible. This of course has huge downsides (and is therefore a last resort decision when you run out of better options). When you lose the midi to audio real time computation, you are stuck with a fixed outcome you cannot anymore modify, neither in real time, nor once for all at the beginning.
You cannot change the patch, the sound parameters (filter, ADSR, .....), effects, note velocity, tempo, ... whatever! It is like having a few CDs vs a real instrument. With the CDs you can listen over and over again to the same immutable songs; with the instrument you can play all the songs you want, with no limits.
At least with a DAW, although inconvenient, you can change the parameters and re-render the track(s) to audio. With a Ketron arranger you can NOT send the arranger back to Ketron and have it reflashed with the new parameters. Can you? Would it be convenient?
Is this a "HUGE leap forward in today's technology"? I do not think so. It sounds more like a two steps back from 1980's technology.

Additionally it is not clear how many audio patterns you have (I think this is intentional, not to scare potential buyers). In a midi based arranger you have not less than 20 chord shapes x 12 keys x 3 inversions x 4 variations x 8 parts x 500 styles x 1000 sounds x countless effects x all the tweaks you want apply to each parameter.
You can make all the multiplications and have an idea. How many choices do you have with Ketron audio tracks?

And even worse, if I am playing a C chord (C + E + G) and then I play (G + C + E) do I hear something happening or not? And then if a play (G# + C + E) is there something happening or not? If I change the tempo from 100 bpm to 50 bpm or 150 bpm what happens? If I want to experiment with more/less distortion to the guitar? If I want a chorused clean guitar (+ delay) instead of a distorted one?

Every midi based arranger can easily cope with all this, I would like to HEAR the audio output of a Ketron arranger (while featuring the advertised audio tracks) in these basic scenarios.

I have the impression that you have misunderstood a few things. Event, like all Ketron arrangers, does not remove midi.
Yes, the company gives more emphasis for Audio Styles but that doesn't mean the midi is done away with.
I would say the opposite.
As a user and professional style producer, I have experience and have instruments from all three remaining arranger companies and I have the models available:
Yamaha Genos, Ketron Audya, SD9, SD1, Korg Pa3x, and I have enough experience in the new Pa5x I had it for a long time on trial from a known e-shop.
Ketron especially with the new Event combines two worlds (audio and midi) in a very simple way that even a user with very little experience can build his own Midi or Audio or a combination of the two with the system that exists from Audya and is called STYLE MODELING.
It's probably the most exciting idea I've come across in recent years, and I'm discovering more and more that there are a lot of people who have no idea of its existence and of the masterful and simple way it works.
But since you are talking about midi, I will also tell you my reasoning.
I would agree with your spirit about the editability that an absolute midi arranger provides.
But you will allow me to say that in its entirety this only applies to of her arrangers Korg & Ketron.
Surely you're terribly impressed that I'm leaving Yamaha out?
Yes. You didn't read wrong.
I'm leaving Yamaha out even though I know their midi style file of Yamaha (SFF1, SFF2) is a very feature rich midi style file.
So really.
Have you ever tried on a Yamaha arranger (as I see your item is a Yamaha) to build a style (from scratch) just to see what difficulties you would run into?
I don't know about you but I found it in front of me and I didn't believe that there were such stupid restrictions from the company.
And I will be more specific.

1) Have you ever tried to build a style either in a daw or onboard which you can record Sustain messages?
What could be simpler and more normal than that?
And Yamaha even records it even if we record this very important means of expression it will be erased when we convert it to .STY the Sustain message will be erased.

2) Have you tried in a style to change an octave of a sound in a Yamaha Arranger?
Please try it. If you find a way to do it (without possibly the help of some third party software) tell me and I'll find out.

3) Have you ever tried making different version chords in Intro, End, etc.?
Try it and if you find any way (outside of third party software again) or if you find an easy way as it happens in Korg & Ketron please tell me so I can get to know it too.

4) Have you ever tried editing (on board) a factory style?
It's simply forbidden because the only option we have is to delete the channel.

5) Have you ever tried without having to go into the style creator to change a drum sound or change volumes, pans, effects, etc. while the style is actually playing?

6) Have you ever tried creating a style with a different signature value or a different tempo on each beat directly back into the instrument with absolutely no help from third party software?

So do you know that all this and much more is also provided in Ketron's cheapest model?
And since you're talking about midi. Find me a company that provides Compress Velocity directly from the mixer?
Are there any companies? Yes, and his name is Ketron.

And since we're talking about midi again, do you know any companies that just copy/paste a midi file (with a single phrase track chanel ) on Modeling Folder can we just select it in any midi channel of the style we want and without a trace of processing it will play and follow the style as if it were an integral part of the style?
Yes, and his name is Ketron.

Can you tell me of a company that provides you with thousands of ready-made midi-style phrases (Piano, Guitar, Synth Arpeggios, Strings, Synth Pads and too more) that you can open individually on any style channel (without any edit) you wish, with the possibility of a completely separate selection for each Variation?
I will tell you a company that can and does this.
Yes, and his name is Ketron.

Can you find me a company that has a completely different mix, different sounds (midi and audio) with different settings in each variation even in the effects, even in the Midi Drums settings?
Yes, I know, and it is also called Ketron.
Hmmm not bad at all I would say Ketron also in midi.
And where to see what's coming with the Event again in the midi. For now, of course, I cannot say anything more about the Event, but we will say that when there is an official announcement.
And what I haven't said about the midi possibilities on Ketron are really still too many and at some point I have to go into the studio because I have a lot of work waiting for me.
Finally, I would like to make a comment regarding the concerns you raised with the Audio.
So the Event brings something really new and wonderful which will be a wonderful complement to the midi and believe me it will take the creativity to other levels.
Of course, everything has its positives and negatives.
Ketron, however, in a really wonderful way, leaves the user in absolute freedom to be in control and choose in a really ridiculously easy way what to do.
I don't want to take the discussion elsewhere and I'm not changing the subject, but I see that many of you have the impression that Ketron only provides audio and that the midi (suffers).
But one more thing. You are talking about the fact of the deviation +- of the tempo.
You are not wrong that obviously the results (in audio) of such a deviation will be disastrous.
Sorry, but why should I lower a style from 100 to 50? In the 32 years I've been working exclusively with arrangers, I've never had to do this because, for example, a samba styles with orgiginal tempo100bpm if I play it at 50bpm then it just won't be a Samba anymore but something different.
if I insist on this it goes to say that I have selected the wrong style. This is my opinion.
I would therefore suggest that we do not rush to condemn something when we probably do not know the depth of the facts.
All this always with a friendly attitude and respecting every point of view.


I could not have said this any better. Thanks Sokratis 1974. Now, onto making good music!
_________________________
[KETRON - USA]
Design Engineer & Product Specialist.
www.KetronAmerica.com

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