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#502197 - 02/08/21 10:40 AM Re: And they're just kids..... [Re: captain Russ]
montunoman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 3208
Loc: Dallas, Texas
Originally Posted By captain Russ
Interesting...the drummer is playing crosshand. I haven't seen anyone do that in many years. Not even players like the drummer in Leonid and Friends (no spring chicken), George Dukes player and other top guys today have "turned that stick around".


Really enjoy younger players...particularly enjoy the joy they show during the discovery process.


Russ


Russ, not to nitpick but the correct term the grip the drummer in the video is using is called "traditional grip". Yes, a lot drummer now play "matched grip" but still many young drummers are still playing traditional grip. The snare drummers at the school I teach at have to learn both. In fact, most top level pros can play both grips but prefer one over the other. I mainly play matched grip but always play brushes with traditional grip, but either grip can achieve great results.
_________________________
It not the keyboard, it's the keyboardist.

www.youtube.com/channel/UCV94i--V-A8kZShmGTKyDOw

https://www.facebook.com/elgrupocache

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#502205 - 02/08/21 02:34 PM Re: And they're just kids..... [Re: montunoman]
captain Russ Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7285
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
I heard the term "crosshand" from Louie Belsom. I think it is a little bit of a geographical thing. This was in Apple Valley/Victorville California in the early 60's.

Whatever, it's your area of expertise.

Be well,


Russ

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#502211 - 02/09/21 10:55 AM Re: And they're just kids..... [Re: cgiles]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
I’m still a little confused as to how a video clip of a power trio says ANYTHING about why kids today don’t play arrangers (or at least, don’t post here much if they do!)?! 😂

There are tons of clips out on YouTube of young keyboard players, I’m just perplexed as to why a clip without any keyboard player at all supports that supposition?

Yes, it’s true that today’s music (which is generally what kids want to play!) is pretty synth heavy, and loop and audio clips dominate the field of production, so naturally the kids are using computer rigs and Eurorack modular systems for recording work. But you still tend to see them play out on workstations live.

But that’s only if the band even uses a keyboard player. I think the bigger trend has been the ‘karaokeization’ of live bands on TV, and nine times out of ten, if there are keyboard parts short of an outright solo, the band is like here... bass drums and guitar (and a pretty singer if needed!) because they are pretty visual.

So, I guess the bigger question isn’t about that kids aren’t playing arrangers... it’s that, on stage, they aren’t playing anything at all!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#502213 - 02/09/21 11:32 AM Re: And they're just kids..... [Re: cgiles]
montunoman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 3208
Loc: Dallas, Texas
Of course, Louie Bellson was a mater technician, right up there with Buddy Rich, but some would say more musical. I studied with one of Louie's drum teachers, Murray Spivack, who besides being a master of classic snare drum technique, was also a Academy Award wining sound engineer for such motion pictures as "King King", "Hello Dolly" and the "Sound of Music"

Anyways, I did meet Louie Bellson in 1984, when my high school jazz band got invited to play at the Playboy Jazz Festival at the Hollywood Bowl. When we were playing I noticed Louie Bellson was on the side of the stage. I thought I might loss it, but he smiled and gave me a big thumbs up. After our set, he said to me that I have some "good hands" and it looked like I have been studying with Murray Spivack. But I digress....

In the common jargon of drummers "cross handed" means when the right hand crosses over the left side to play the hi-hat. This is the way most drummers play the high hat or a ride or crash cymbal that may be on the left side of the drum set.

Some drummers such as Billy Cobham, Carter Beauford, and Simmon Philips play what is called "open handed", by keeping there left hand on the hi-hat or other any cymbals on the left side of the drum set. It's a more natural way to play because the right does not have to cross, but it's harder for right hand players because the left hand has to work harder. Think of a basic straight eighth note pop drum groove- the hi hat plays (usually with the right hand) plays 8 notes every measure while the snare drum (usually the left hand) plays on "2" and "4"

"Traditional grip" (the left hand grip the young man in the video Chas posted) dates back to the 1400's when military marching drummers carried snare drums on a sling hung around their neck and shoulder, which made the drum tilt. Look at some paintings of the military drummers of the Amerian Revolution or Civil War for some examples. Traditional grip carried over into the jazz era when the drum set was developed and as rock music gained popularity, drummers staring going back to using matched grip because it is easier to get the strong sanre drum back beat that the music calls for and it's easier to reach for the multiple tom set up that drummers started using in the 60's.

I know, too much information, and I apologize to Chas for going off topic, I am a total drum nerd and could talk about this stuff all day. But good observation Russ that the young drummer in the video was playing "traditional grip" or as you say "cross handed". Most drummers since Ringo have played matched grip, so it's nice see a young drummer, play traditional grip. The kid can play a very strong back beat, so he proves that you don't have to play like the majority of matched grip drummers.



_________________________
It not the keyboard, it's the keyboardist.

www.youtube.com/channel/UCV94i--V-A8kZShmGTKyDOw

https://www.facebook.com/elgrupocache

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#502214 - 02/09/21 11:52 AM Re: And they're just kids..... [Re: montunoman]
captain Russ Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7285
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
After that lecture (I mean that in a good way), I'm convinced that I misunderstood what Louie said. Even at my age, I really appreciate learning stuff about the business I have been in for so long.

It takes someone like you to care enough to "fill in the blanks".

For some reason, I missed the fact that you played drums.

Thanks for the info.

I REALLY enjoy our occasional visits.


Be well,


Russ (cross-brained) Lay

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#502216 - 02/09/21 01:34 PM Re: And they're just kids..... [Re: captain Russ]
montunoman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 3208
Loc: Dallas, Texas
Originally Posted By captain Russ
After that lecture (I mean that in a good way), I'm convinced that I misunderstood what Louie said. Even at my age, I really appreciate learning stuff about the business I have been in for so long.

It takes someone like you to care enough to "fill in the blanks".

For some reason, I missed the fact that you played drums.

Thanks for the info.



I REALLY enjoy our occasional visits.


Be well,


Russ (cross-brained) Lay



Thank you Russ, I am glad you learnt something new! Now, I am pretty sure what Louie Belson was referring to was the "cross-over" technique that drummers like him, Joe Morello, and Buddy Rich were all so great at.

Check out the beginning of this Louie Bellson solo at around 30 seconds into the video. That is a "cross over" or some people call "cross sticking" (not to be confused with "cross stick" where the stick plays on the rim, like in bossa novva...."

_________________________
It not the keyboard, it's the keyboardist.

www.youtube.com/channel/UCV94i--V-A8kZShmGTKyDOw

https://www.facebook.com/elgrupocache

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#502222 - 02/10/21 01:01 PM Re: And they're just kids..... [Re: montunoman]
captain Russ Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7285
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
Louie's wife, "Pearlie Maye" was an investor in the club I played in in Apple Valley in 1962-63.

Occasionally, I would play a charity job with her, Ray Brown and, sometimes, Herb Ellis.

I was a dumb-assed kid and didn't realize that I was playing with 1/2 the Oscar Peterson trio.

I thought it was cool that, one every television appearance o by Pearl Bailey, thee was a quick shot of the drummer-her husband and often the only white player in the group.

Good memories!


R.

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