...and virtually unknown. But listen to the level of musicianship and technical (playing) ability. I've heard it asked many times on this forum why kids (young adults) aren't interested in arrangers. I think videos like this pretty much illustrate why. I think for most folks, interest in arrangers starts around age 50-60 OR when one cannot physically play a 'traditional' instrument at the level they could in their youth OR when they realize that their talent and ability is never going to allow them to create their desired quality of music OR they have little or no interest in playing at a professional level on a traditional instrument.

In any case, check out these youngsters and even if you don't care for this type of music, it's still amazing to watch the ease with which they play these difficult compositions. Not bashing Arrangers, they definitely fill a need, but watching these kids, you have to think, "hmmm...looks like technology has some catching up to do".

chas

Fantastic playing and so refreshing to see kids looking for different styles of music than the pop junk of the main stream.
As far as why we play Arrangers for me it was a matter of survival. It became evident years ago when DJ's came on the scene big time and bands were struggling. From numerous bands over the years II was down to a duo of keys and drums and even that was a hard sell. To keep doing parties which were my main source of gigs I went with a drum machine ( the drummer was tired of playing and ready to leave ) and joined the enemy and DJ'd too. Worked well, made good $$$.
Then got a demonstration of an early arranger ( Roland Pro E ) from a friend who owned a music store. So now I could leave the bass pedals and one of my keyboards at home and still play with a full sound and concentrate more on my singing.
So here I am in SC from NJ. Next gig is a Wedding I will do along with my BK9 and an old friend from NJ playing sax. And yes, DJing the heavy party tunes.
I will soon be rehearsing with a newly forming 7 piece jazz/pop ensemble but it will be just for fun and to really get to play. No where to book such a group unless its a benefit preformance. Play at home for myself and still hope to find that Unicorn solo keyboard gig.

I think the attraction of arrangers is that they successfully combine every kind of keyboard in one convenient package. I’ve used them as my main gigging keyboard for 30 years+, whether live band, small duo, solo, studio work, you name it...

Compared to workstations, I have always found the overall soundset FAR more balanced, easily going from one sound to another without having to grab a fader to turn it down or up, without having to spend days setting up all my setups to avoid a volume calamity on a gig!

And in thirty years of playing them, I have never ONCE had anyone ask with incredulity ‘That’s an ARRANGER you’re playing?!’. The honest truth is, as long as you play well with a good sound, no one cares...

The convenience of using one piece of kit you are intimately familiar with rather than a variety of commonly used keyboards for different situations that you struggle to remember where everything is is worth everything. The last thing a band or an audience or a producer wants to see is you fumbling around for any reason.

But... pro tip..! NEVER turn on the automatic sections when playing in a band! You don’t need that kind of abuse 😂

Yes, it's great to see young folks playing music from yesteryear and putting their own stamp on it, like these youngsters did. Great playing, and I hope they will find plenty of bookings and an appreciative audience.

Also I think there are many arranger players that are fine musicians but playing in a full band for profit seems to get harder and harder. Having some sort backing is essential if you're playing for parties and dancers. Do think a great solo pianist like Art Tatum could pack a dance floor in this era?

Art Tatum didn’t really do solo dance music in the first place!

Diki, you missed the point of my post. No need to defend arrangers or justify why you use them...that's nobody's business but yours. Rather than trying to explain it, I'd just ask you to go back and re-read it.

For the entire 15 or more years that I've posted here, any post that doesn't glorify arrangers or declare them to be the end-all/be-all in music is generally regarded as arranger bashing. It's not true. While I freely admit that I will never view them as a comparable substitute for 'live' music played without the assistance of computers or AI, I can certainly see them as a viable substitute in certain given situations. HOWEVER, we mustn't ever forget that their whole purpose in life is to imitate/emulate their competition; traditional instruments played by competent musicians. Frankly, I just posted this to remind us of the professional and quality levels we're trying to attain (by whatever means).

For the record, I'll listen to Marco Parisi play arranger (or washboard or anything else) all day, proving Paul's point..."it ain't the keyboard.....".

BTW, glad to see you back, missed you.

chas

Sorry, Chas, my post wasn’t really a response to your OP, but more to Bill’s points. Sorry we took it a bit off topic. But you DID open the door a bit talking about why kids in a band don’t use arrangers!

The truth is, at this level, probably the kids aren’t having a tough time getting booked (or at least, once Covid vaccinations get the clubs and theaters reopened) but the fact is, compared to say the 80’s, the number of live club level venues has been completely decimated, at least in my area. An area that had 20+ full bands playing most nights of the week has contracted down to maybe 5 playing one or two nights and only one or two venues doing week nights.

But plenty of solo guitarists, some with loopers or canned backing. It’s just a taste thing, I think, more than any real reason arrangers aren’t getting used by youngsters. There aren’t ANY young keyboard players working solos in my area. Whether on workstations, loop stations or just piano... It’s mostly acoustic guitarists.

I’m pretty confident that, if the demand was there, youngsters would find the arranger as useful as it has ever been if they could find any solo work in the first place!

To a certain degree, as a young inexperienced keyboard player, we all tend to start out wanting to use the gear we see our contemporary stars using, no matter if it’s a PITA to use and haul around. My back has never really recovered from lugging B3’s and Rhodes’ around and surrounding myself with every synth I could afford! I’m watching the Super Bowl pre show as we speak, and on stage is a huge Moog modular, which will only be used for one sound! Bet you that kid’s going to be using something more practical in a few years’ time!

I’ve never thought of arrangers as simply arrangers, and I have little doubt that if my BK-9 was available at the time I was a kid and playing at their level, I’d have used it... Yep, I might have got a road crew to set up the heavy stuff for TV exposure, but if I’m humping my own gear, screw that!

And really, you know why these particular kids aren’t using arrangers?

Because they don’t even have a frickin’ keyboard player, they have tracks on the drummer’s laptop...!

Back when I was very young, I was guitar player and singer. I mostly strummed the chords and sang country songs in smoke filled bars. I had lots of guitars, a couple solid body, a 6-string Ibanez, a 12-string Yamaha,they all sounded great, and essentially, I was just another have guitar will travel entertainer. I later formed a 5-piece country band, we worked weekends, the pay per band member dropped like a hot rock, and though I thoroughly enjoyed the experience and playing with other musicians, economically, it just was not feasible. None of us barely made expenses, and some nights, we didn't ever break even.

About 35 years ago, I ran across a duo, one guy playing a guitar and the other an arranger keyboard - a Yamaha PSR-500. The duo, Norm and Carlos, were booked every night of the week, they got top dollar, which back then was $150 for a 4-hour performance, the dance floor was always packed to capacity, they played 50s, 60s and 70s music, about half of it, country/western. One night, Norm came into the restaurant and Carlos was not with him - he had suffered a massive heart attack and was in University of Maryland Hospital's ICU in grave condition. He managed to survive and went back to playing a guitar for a couple years before the big one came and took his life. Norm continued to play the keyboard, and occasionally the guitar with midi files playing on the keyboard - he was still booked solid and made the same, if not more, money.

Now, I was relatively young back then (young being a relative term), still perched on a bar stool in a smoked filled bar and picking my guitars and singing for $50 a night. My regular job, an outdoor columnist for way to many publications, was falling apart as the Internet came into play. Today, none of the major newspapers I wrote for have an outdoor column. Well, I had a family to support, and decided to make a change. As much as I enjoyed playing a guitar, I was just another in a long list of "Have Guitar Will Travel" entertainers out there playing for anything the club and restaurant owners offered. I did some research, came across the PSR-Tutorial and Synthzone forums, and began to ask questions. I learned a lot from Donny, Fran, Uncle Dave, Don Mason, and many others. I took notes, kept them all printed out in a bit loose-leaf binder and one day, put the checkbook in my pocket and went shopping for an arranger keyboard. The very first one I came across was the PSR-500. My wife was furious when I came home and the checkbook was $500 lighter than when I left early that day. I also purchased a Peavey KB 500 amp and a Shure SM60. Didn't need a mixer because the amp had multiple inputs. I promised her that if I couldn't make a go of it with the keyboard, I would go back to work in the field of cardio-pulmonary medicine for my old boss at the University of Maryland Hospital Shock Trauma Unit. (Of course, she didn't believe a word I said)

Now, if you look at the top of the page, this is a "General Arranger Keyboard Forum", which it has been since I first arrived so many years ago. It's where folks that owned arranger keyboards came go learn about their arranger keyboards - not guitar picking, sax playing, horns...etc - just arranger keyboards.

After a few years, I decided to meet some of the regulars here in person, catch their performances and pick up some first-hand information. My wife and I drove more than 5,000 miles during that trip. I met so very many talented entertainers, most of which who had also played other instruments before climbing on the arranger keyboard bandwagon. Some, such as Randy, still plays a sax, Diki was playing a G-70 in the Florida Panhandle, Ed Shoemaker, was filling dance floors with his PSR3000, Donny had a Korg at the time and so did Uncle Dave, both of which were playing regularly on the Jersey Shore. Fran was playing on the boardwalk and had some gorgeous ladies and a young guy in front of him, and at the time, were all relatively young, in our late 30s.

Well, I managed to make a damned good living for more than 30 years using an arranger keyboard, made enough to buy an ocean going sailing yacht, set up a retirement account and eventually retired. None of the Have Guitar Will Travel Guys I ran across during the 30 year period were remotely successful - not one and I met hundreds of them throughout my travels.

Chas, the kid can really play a guitar very well, but so does my son, and many others out there - they just didn't post it on You Tube to be copied to an Arranger Keyboard Forum.

All the best,

Gary

Interesting...the drummer is playing crosshand. I haven't seen anyone do that in many years. Not even players like the drummer in Leonid and Friends (no spring chicken), George Dukes player and other top guys today have "turned that stick around".


Really enjoy younger players...particularly enjoy the joy they show during the discovery process.


Russ

Russ, not to nitpick but the correct term the grip the drummer in the video is using is called "traditional grip". Yes, a lot drummer now play "matched grip" but still many young drummers are still playing traditional grip. The snare drummers at the school I teach at have to learn both. In fact, most top level pros can play both grips but prefer one over the other. I mainly play matched grip but always play brushes with traditional grip, but either grip can achieve great results.

I heard the term "crosshand" from Louie Belsom. I think it is a little bit of a geographical thing. This was in Apple Valley/Victorville California in the early 60's.

Whatever, it's your area of expertise.

Be well,


Russ

I’m still a little confused as to how a video clip of a power trio says ANYTHING about why kids today don’t play arrangers (or at least, don’t post here much if they do!)?! 😂

There are tons of clips out on YouTube of young keyboard players, I’m just perplexed as to why a clip without any keyboard player at all supports that supposition?

Yes, it’s true that today’s music (which is generally what kids want to play!) is pretty synth heavy, and loop and audio clips dominate the field of production, so naturally the kids are using computer rigs and Eurorack modular systems for recording work. But you still tend to see them play out on workstations live.

But that’s only if the band even uses a keyboard player. I think the bigger trend has been the ‘karaokeization’ of live bands on TV, and nine times out of ten, if there are keyboard parts short of an outright solo, the band is like here... bass drums and guitar (and a pretty singer if needed!) because they are pretty visual.

So, I guess the bigger question isn’t about that kids aren’t playing arrangers... it’s that, on stage, they aren’t playing anything at all!

Of course, Louie Bellson was a mater technician, right up there with Buddy Rich, but some would say more musical. I studied with one of Louie's drum teachers, Murray Spivack, who besides being a master of classic snare drum technique, was also a Academy Award wining sound engineer for such motion pictures as "King King", "Hello Dolly" and the "Sound of Music"

Anyways, I did meet Louie Bellson in 1984, when my high school jazz band got invited to play at the Playboy Jazz Festival at the Hollywood Bowl. When we were playing I noticed Louie Bellson was on the side of the stage. I thought I might loss it, but he smiled and gave me a big thumbs up. After our set, he said to me that I have some "good hands" and it looked like I have been studying with Murray Spivack. But I digress....

In the common jargon of drummers "cross handed" means when the right hand crosses over the left side to play the hi-hat. This is the way most drummers play the high hat or a ride or crash cymbal that may be on the left side of the drum set.

Some drummers such as Billy Cobham, Carter Beauford, and Simmon Philips play what is called "open handed", by keeping there left hand on the hi-hat or other any cymbals on the left side of the drum set. It's a more natural way to play because the right does not have to cross, but it's harder for right hand players because the left hand has to work harder. Think of a basic straight eighth note pop drum groove- the hi hat plays (usually with the right hand) plays 8 notes every measure while the snare drum (usually the left hand) plays on "2" and "4"

"Traditional grip" (the left hand grip the young man in the video Chas posted) dates back to the 1400's when military marching drummers carried snare drums on a sling hung around their neck and shoulder, which made the drum tilt. Look at some paintings of the military drummers of the Amerian Revolution or Civil War for some examples. Traditional grip carried over into the jazz era when the drum set was developed and as rock music gained popularity, drummers staring going back to using matched grip because it is easier to get the strong sanre drum back beat that the music calls for and it's easier to reach for the multiple tom set up that drummers started using in the 60's.

I know, too much information, and I apologize to Chas for going off topic, I am a total drum nerd and could talk about this stuff all day. But good observation Russ that the young drummer in the video was playing "traditional grip" or as you say "cross handed". Most drummers since Ringo have played matched grip, so it's nice see a young drummer, play traditional grip. The kid can play a very strong back beat, so he proves that you don't have to play like the majority of matched grip drummers.

After that lecture (I mean that in a good way), I'm convinced that I misunderstood what Louie said. Even at my age, I really appreciate learning stuff about the business I have been in for so long.

It takes someone like you to care enough to "fill in the blanks".

For some reason, I missed the fact that you played drums.

Thanks for the info.

I REALLY enjoy our occasional visits.


Be well,


Russ (cross-brained) Lay

Thank you Russ, I am glad you learnt something new! Now, I am pretty sure what Louie Belson was referring to was the "cross-over" technique that drummers like him, Joe Morello, and Buddy Rich were all so great at.

Check out the beginning of this Louie Bellson solo at around 30 seconds into the video. That is a "cross over" or some people call "cross sticking" (not to be confused with "cross stick" where the stick plays on the rim, like in bossa novva...."

Louie's wife, "Pearlie Maye" was an investor in the club I played in in Apple Valley in 1962-63.

Occasionally, I would play a charity job with her, Ray Brown and, sometimes, Herb Ellis.

I was a dumb-assed kid and didn't realize that I was playing with 1/2 the Oscar Peterson trio.

I thought it was cool that, one every television appearance o by Pearl Bailey, thee was a quick shot of the drummer-her husband and often the only white player in the group.

Good memories!


R.