In this demo the VH2 sounds pretty good to me.
What do you think?
Eric

Eric nice find ...BUT....
regarding this video and what we are talking about is this
....if you notice this guy is wearing a headset mic...
with that on your head and your mouth SQUARELY pressed on top of the
mic when singing is fine to a point, but certainly not the
quality at all of a TC Helicon unit. That said if you don't use a headset mic and sing with a traditional hand held one and your coming
to the mic from different angles while your playing & singing it is a whole new ball game,....first and foremost power singers use distance dynamics to control nuances in their voice with different head gestures in, out, side, etc,....the Yamaha VH2 is notorious for DROPOUTS, especially with TRIO harmony, that's why so many Yamaha players although there is VH2 on-board still use an external TC Helicon unit for their vocals.. I should know that vs a TC Helicon unit which has a superb TRACKING mechanism inside,
....and no drop outs no matter how you approach the mic, superb tracking, much better vocal harmony, robust sound quality.
IMO If you really care about your Vocal Harmony TC Helicon outmatches VH2 by a mile every time.
Yamaha needs to update VH2 in a big way, It's just how it is sorry.

I agree with you.
That's why I still use my TC VL3 ...
However this was still a good demo IMHO
For certain people this might be just enough.
Eric

This type of singing is perfect to showcase the VH2. It's not very expressive, it's compressed, and highly rhythmical. His voice, while very nice, is more a part of the drum section than a melody. (IMHO) My style is more fluid, and very spontaneous. I need to punch in and out of a harmony, sometimes 2 or three times in the same sentence. I try to sound like the 4 freshman, 4 tops, Mills bros, Beach Boys .... that lush, wall of sound with moving voices in the chord. A simple third above can me made to sound great for Everly Bros, and the like, and most other styles, but my signature has always been more of a Manhattan Transfer-ish approach to vocals.

The biggest problem is not with the tone of the vocals ... it's the erratic behavior when you try to sing with more expression.

Yamaha VH2 needs a solid, steady vocal with little or no variance in dynamics. The compressor, and noise gate help make it more usable, but it's been said many times ... even the Digitech units from 30 years ago performed better. The TC stuff blows it away. (Go ahead Fran ... tell us how much you love the G-70 processor)

There are no power singers on this forum - NONE! I see lots of power singers on America's Got Talent and BGT, but not on the Sythzone.

I've used both the TC Helicon Harmony-M and the VH2 on my S-950. When properly tuned, the VH2 worked equally as well, no drop outs for someone that does not use the pull-away effect (proximity effect), and utilizes vocal control instead. It really doesn't make a bit of difference if you use a headset mic or handheld mic. I have achieved equal results with both types of mics. Keep in mind that if you use the proximity effect, you pull the mic out of effective signal range, which would, obviously produce dropouts with any vocal processor. They all, including the best TC Helicon, need adequate signal strength in order to process the signal. Maybe the gain on the TC is set higher by default than the VH2, but the VH2 can be set to any level you wish. However, when the gain is increased, so is the possibility of feedback.

I know several performers that use the proximity effect, but none are what I consider power singers. This is not to say they are not good singers, but when they attempt to hit notes that are obviously out of their vocal range, they tend to pull that mic away and hope that no-one notices they cannot hit that particular note.

Vocal control takes a bit more concentration and training. I learned it many years ago when I was a newscaster for a local radio station. You had to be able to place emphasis on certain words of a news story while maintaining the same audio level. Under these circumstances, the proximity effective would be totally useless.

Just my .02 cents worth,

Gary

Good discussion,
Maybe Yamaha will read the forum and update their Harmonizer in the next generation?
Meanwhile its TC VL3 for me.
Eric

Thanks, guys:

Interesting exchanges of opinions, solidly developed over the years as vocal harmony methods have been invented and improvedd. It is the weakest link in my pitiful array of "armor" to hide an ancient set of vocal chords and lack of singing experience. I am thankfully, not a performer like most of you. I only need to get one good performance out of a recording session.

It's almost too late to justify acquisition of any of the great VH products out there. Dave's indirect support of Eric's chosen video artist and his headset mic makes me wonder if it might work for what I do.

Wish I had the experience and vocal (plus other) capabilities of my highly talented and respected Uncle Dave. (He's really not my uncle... but I'd be proud if that turned out to be the case! LOL!)

----West Mayberry Dave

I doubt it Yamaha couldn't give a rats A$$ about vocal harmony or else they would certainly have come up to the quality of TC helicon or better yet licensed Tc helicon units to be used in their keyboards for singers.

Like most things in life, we choose VH's based on how they appeal to us, which is usually based on how they are used - 1 part, 2 part 3 part harmony or more (if the VH is capable) ...
The only person I have heard on this board use multi part harmony to a large degree and with great success is Uncle Dave ... most others use 1 or 2 part harmony with varying degrees of success ...
I do believe that some VH units perform better than others, just as could be the case with any electronic device ...
I agree with Gary in that the proximity of the mic has a lot to do with the quality of the harmony parts - too far away and there could be drop off, too close and there could be distortion ...

On the subject of 'power singers', to ME, Donny comes closest to what I consider to be a 'power singer', based on what I call the timbre, and/or depth of his voice ... Dave and Gary are obviously excellent singers, but their voices - to me - are very different from Donny's ...

IMHO, a 'good' singer should not be singing a song in a key that they could not hit the highest or 'biggest' note of the song without sounding like they are straining, or needing to hold the mic far away, so that no one hears that they can't hit that note ... Some, if not most, of the top performers - the likes of Sinatra, Bennett, Whitney, Buble, etc. all used or use the 'proximity' effect, because they are well versed in vocal and mic use techniques ... and they certainly are hitting those notes ... Of course, THEIR harmony comes from the very talented back-up singers behind them ...

So the 'battle' of VH vs VH will rage on and on, with a lot of rhetoric based on our own bias towards certain brand names, and as with KBs, it doesn't REALLY determine that one is better than another, just how well it works for the individual ...

There's my humble opinion, and it may not even be worth 2 cents ...

What I enjoy most about the T.C. Helicons are the processors. They make my voice sound decent automatically.

Tony as you mentioned using 2 above or below etc,...
PLUS your own voice is considered a TRIO Vh combination also.
Also many have no idea how to use it effectively or when to use it in a song also....that in itself is an art form....just pushing the VH button doesn't mean your doing it correctly and that is easily detected when you LISTEN to the singing with VH..Yamaha wake up!

ciao

Don agreed and a BIG +1 buddy

Did any one notice he is playing a Solton MS 80 (accorden knobs) midified to the Genos?

I haven't tried all the presets on the sx900 VH, but I did find one that suits most of the "stuff" I do--Country Rock. The VH would be usable for me. I'm definitely NOT a power singer.
Maybe it's just me but I think the VH is improved over previous PSRs, but maybe it's just some better presets.

Cheers, Bachus. I was wondering what he was actually doing under the Genos.

I doubt it Don you won’t really know till you use it live on stage at performance volumes from all angles on the mic... Good luck

I think it might be better due to better DSP's and output.
Plus better presets.
At least that is what was mentioned regarding the Genos when it came out.
I use the PSR-970 for small background type gigs and the VH is certainly sufficient.
Eric

Then HOW did you decide whether it was any good after three hours!!!??

That's easy because I know vh2 hasn't been updated in years and nothing on the market matches
TC-Helicon tracking at this moment.... but you know that....... that said it was many other things that made my decision to return it for my needs....
3 hours might have been too much time call me to decide...

As I said, the VH sounds better to me than previous models, and I'm not getting any distortion.

Distortion could be a gain setting ....
But tracking and dropouts was always a problem for me..

What bothers me most about the Yamaha VH is that if you engage or disengage the VH while singing a note, there is an audible blip. In other words the voice signal is interrupted for a micro-second or so when the pedal or switch is pressed. It has always been this way, and I just remembered it.
This will most likely keep Uncle Dave from using it much. I could work around it if I had to, but I don't have to.

The StudioLogic NC2x does the exact same thing when you select a new voice (usually RH) while playing. VERY annoying, especially since I use it playing LH bass 95% of the time (it has a great bass line, BTW, which can be paired with a ride - you can/could play a nice 'walking bass' tune without drums for some tunes). There's actually a microsecond glitch/dropout/hiccup/break/whatever that is quite noticable. Changing a RH voice should not cause an interuption in the LH voice. Again, VERY annoying.

chas

VH2 is the same old thing subpar no matter how you look at it.... if it was improved in the sx900 I'm sure they will be touting it as an upgrade but you haven't seen that anywhere have you?

I only have my ears. It sounds better to me, and there are better presets. It is usable, the way I would use it. Maybe not the way others would use it.

Hi,
I would have thought that’s what it’s all about, if it sounds good to your own ears, you can sell it to your audience?

Donny, I haven’t read anywhere, where new sx owners are unhappy about the sound of the SX’s, yet you wrote you preferred the sound of the S950/970.

So gather sound is subjective.

Hi Rikki reading and listening are two different things correct?... I am truly happy for all of you sx900 owners use it well be happy with it and enjoy making music as for me I'm still on the journey...

Hi Donny,
true. You didn’t like the sound of sx as much as you liked the sound of psr950/970
I suppose that comes under the heading of Listening? in which case why isn’t it possible that Don thinks he can hear a sound improvement on theVH2 harmoniser.

I don’t sing so never used a harmoniser.

I personally believe my sx900 sounded better than my S950, had them side by side for a week.
I definitely believe my PA4X sounded better than my PA3X.
That relates to what I hear. Some may agree some may not. It’s subjective.

Functions on the other hand are not. One either has to compromise and find a work around, or give it a miss.

For you the SX obviously wasn’t a good fit. When does your Roland arrive?

I have it side by side with PA4X, PSRS950 and EA7. The x900 sounds great, as do the Korg and Roland. They all have a different "personality".
It blows the S950 away in all categories, sounds, drums, styles, functions.
Drums are MUCH better, styles are much better, many of the old styles are revoiced and rebalanced. New country and R&B styles are great. Guitars are great, especially the Pedal Steels. The OOHs and AAHs are very well done, better than Korg and Roland. New Cajun accordion is authentic. Most sound insert effects are great.
I can't see giving up the EA7 because it is a good arranger and very portable. However I am now entertaining the thought of adding the SX900. Seriously.
It is really deep and there is a learning curve, even though I am very familiar with operating previous Yamahas. Too much to get into right now...I'm still learning lots of new features.
I haven't run it into my Big PA system, just a small one at the house, but if the VH isn't satisfactory, I already have Harmony M's in both my setups.
Oh, and the built-in speakers are by far the best I've heard in an arranger.
Negatives: (they all have some). USB ports poorly located...no lettering on the top of the keyboard to indicate where to plug connections in...no VH on/off indicator...Leslie on/off needs work, but the switch can be re-programmed for other functions...only two pedal inserts. Organs are the weakest sounds on the 900, of course in my opinion, as all of this is.
I'm sure there are more, but I'm still experimenting.
If I do get one of my own, I think I'll start completely over on Registrations.. Either that or go through each one individually to see if the new styles and sounds are better than what I have saved. In almost every case they are, even though my S970 registrations work fine as they are. Why make your new arranger sound like the old one?

Hi Rikki.... Hopefully mid week.. as far as the sound comparison I hardly ever use onboard speakers on my Yamahas to setup, tweak, edit etc as they sound terrible to me so when I am referring to sound I am talking about going thru my PA system with the right EQ... out of all S units I've had and I've had them all I still have an affection for the s970 which was my favorite out of all of them.

Have a great evening..

Don- is there a decently visual indication on the screen if no light?

I think you need to go into the VH menu to see it?

No indicator that I have found.

So there's no quick reference from the home screen or indicator light on button? I use a foot pedal and like to see the light peripherally to confirm the switch was depressed enough and that I hit the right switch. A lighted button isn't an expensive option. I believe ketron has same issue on sd7 and similar?

At least Ketron SD40, and I suppose the SD7, has a small display saying it is on or off.

Older Yamaha arrangers had the VH light on deck if I remember correctly psr3k?

S970 didn't have it.

I said Old... Lol

So the signal-Mic setting/vocal harmony button to the right of the touch screen, that looks like it has an led in it, does not engage/disengage the vh and light up?

Sparky did your order a SX900 also?

Hi Rikki.... Hopefully mid week.. [/quote]

Good one Donny. Fingers crossed they’re nice and prompt. That’s the worst part, THE WAIT.

No, it just shows that the mic is being used, and the input level. It would be SO easy to assign it to show VH on/off. Maybe in an update some time.

Good question.
I've often wondered about why so many do as best as they can to adapt the new keyboards to sound exactly as the old ones.. 🤔

No,waiting for things like this issue to pop up. Just looking at the face of it you would think the button was for on/off.

Helpful to see other users experience. Anything short of downloading and reading the manual ahead of time doesn't give you the whole function picture.

And at this point, it would be an outboard vh with an sx700 or ea7 (I've read that manual)..

nothing is perfect especially arranger keyboards...
might as well at this point just wait till
2020 Winter NAMM and MusiKmesse to come
as mew models pop up all the time ..

Besides that said above ....
I always wondered whey people buy a NEW keyboard and then go spend money on so called sound & style packs from third party vendors?

Dave ... you just might be one of the most polite people I've ever met! My Dad is a great peacemaker, very tactful, and gracious. You (and of course, my buddy Don Mason) remind me a lot of him. Thanks for the nod.