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#475350 - 09/03/19 12:35 PM Why don't you sing when you play?
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Why don't you sing when you play as a one man act?
I have heard every silly excuse why players don't sing or have convinced themselves they can't,....
or think its too difficult to sing and play at the same time?..
would love to hear the actual reasons... confused1 keys


Edited by Dnj (09/03/19 01:40 PM)

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#475351 - 09/03/19 01:27 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
ekurburski Offline
Member

Registered: 03/22/17
Posts: 449
Loc: Mountain Home, AR
I sing but when I started customers suggested I stop. Not everyone can sing. I'll go even further and state there are some folks here who believe they are great singers who really shouldn't embarrass themselves. At the least they need to work on getting a good pa and a good mike. Using inferior equipment for vocals is a huge problem with the bulk of local entertainers.
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#475352 - 09/03/19 01:38 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
I can answer that with ease smile

Exceptional players have no need to sing, their skill shines through their play..

Secondly, when you are a great player, there is more involved then playing 2-5 chords, or following tracks.

They have mastered their skills..

I believe I have only really known one great player that sang .. He was also an average singer.. (Brent).

I do know many "singers" in the next group that play to back themselves... I don't believe many if any are great players..

Personally I rather listen to a great instrumentalist ( and appreciate the skill level, then a "pop" type singer. The exception would be throwback to old groups that I grew up with) grin
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#475353 - 09/03/19 01:42 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Fran Carango]
Dnj Offline
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Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Originally Posted By Fran Carango
I can answer that with ease smile

Exceptional players have no need to sing, their skill shines through their play..

Secondly, when you are a great player, there is more involved then playing 2-5 chords, or following tracks.

They have mastered their skills..

I believe I have only really known one great player that sang .. He was also an average singer.. (Brent).

I do know many "singers" in the next group that play to back themselves... I don't believe many if any are great players..

Personally I rather listen to a great instrumentalist ( and appreciate the skill level, then a "pop" type singer. The exception would be throwback to old groups that I grew up with) grin


Great excuse Fran...haven't heard that one yet.. confused1

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#475354 - 09/03/19 02:57 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
bruno123 Online   content
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Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 4912
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
We are not all wired the same way. I would have become an excellent guitar player, but I loved singing more. If I played a guitar solo like misty with the band, no matter how good it was, they appreciated a vocal more. The majority of people out there do not understand an instrumental solo. Not talking rock here.

It was needed in my band, so I sang. There are those who met the need and should not sing. And there are those on the fence, they have doubts. The good part is that we can all do what we want, regardless.

John C.

PS, when I married, my wife asked me if she could sing on the job with me --- I turned on the keyboard, handed her the mic, and she sang. I gently took the mic out of her hand and asked her to promise not to touch the mic again. I love my wife, she is a winner, but she can not sing.

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#475355 - 09/03/19 02:59 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
solomon8 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/20/05
Posts: 98
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Fl USA
Believe me I can't sing. Helen Keller asked me to stop singing.

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#475357 - 09/03/19 03:45 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
hammer Offline
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Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2397
Loc: Texas
Pretty simple, I tell folks I don't sing cause I don't want them to leave!

Deane

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#475359 - 09/03/19 03:59 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: hammer]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
All these excuses I have heard before many times.
Why not practice and work out some songs to sing so that it gives your act variety....even a few songs makes it more entertaining.
I've also noticed non singers don't even talk to the audience either....really? I don't get it.

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#475360 - 09/03/19 04:01 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
montunoman Offline
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Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 3208
Loc: Dallas, Texas
I took up singing pretty late in life. I wish I had started when I was a kid but I just never had the inclination. I just thought of myself as a musician and focused on my playing skills. After years of working with many not so great singers and often times training them, I thought, “ I can do this too”
To my surprise I got way more positive comments from audience members on my vocals then I ever did on my playing, which I’ve worked so hard on. I started singing more out of necessity and now I actually enjoy singing. I say if I can do it YOU can do it too if you want to.
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#475364 - 09/03/19 05:35 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
Bill Lewis Offline
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Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 2441
Loc: Bluffton/Hilton Head SC USA
If we're referring to preforming outside of your home singing is a must. Haven't seen an act yet and I've seen alot that doesn't have vocals and thats whats fearured. Many mediocore,guitar players here but no one cares if the vocals are good. Even at the more pro level its all about singers.
As far as " I can't " yes you can it may just take more work than someone else. I sang all the way up thru college but never as a soloist. Found a great teacher who used to sing at the Met. She helped me "find my voice" and in time I was preforming out at gigs I,m not great, but have been told I have a good voice. I taught music in schools and worked with a lot of kids who said "I can't" So do it , find a teacher or youtube some lessons and take some time to work on it every day. It willl happen.
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#475391 - 09/04/19 02:28 AM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
Bernie9 Offline
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Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5507
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
I do both fairly well with both, but not at the same time. I don't know how to accompany myself, except chords on my left hand. I can sing over my melody, but I read that was not acceptable, except in church. I really should work on it. Don Mason gave a few hints on how he did it a while back, but lost the thread.

Bernie
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#475395 - 09/04/19 04:15 AM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Good luck Bernie, your audiences will notice and appreciate it emensly.

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#475397 - 09/04/19 04:53 AM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
bruno123 Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 4912
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
At the beginning of my career 9 out of 10 songs were instrumental, Latins, waltz, polkas, ethnic, and big band, no vocal, you had to be a good musician. How things have changed.

Some of my guitar students started forming their bands after taking lessons for three months.
John C.

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#475399 - 09/04/19 06:33 AM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
Bernie9 Offline
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Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5507
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
"Good luck Bernie, your audiences will notice and appreciate it emensly."

Thanks Donny, but where do I start. Left hand chords, block or arpeggiated on right ? I think Don was saying to put in little riffs that would follow the song.
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#475403 - 09/04/19 06:49 AM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Bernie9]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Start by eliminating the moldy line with your RH
and let your vocal take it's place.
LH triggers the chords and the right hand is free to comp
solo and chord arpeggiate thruout the song arrangement.
You will be juggling Three things at once.
There are no rules... do it as you see fit for the song that what makes it unique.
Start off easy with songs you don't need charts,
lyrics, etc, and just play and sing without playing the melody line.
Do it every day and after a while you will get used to doing it for sure. have fun.


Edited by Dnj (09/04/19 06:50 AM)

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#475405 - 09/04/19 07:06 AM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Berie and others here is a few short demo songs that I have played live on the S950 with vocals to give you an idea of what I am talking about regarding singing, playing, & solo at the same time ...
hope it helps you a bit to get started..

https://app.box.com/s/as8ngfvw1tesg22cq9dn5ce5dn541zvj

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#475406 - 09/04/19 07:10 AM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
montunoman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 3208
Loc: Dallas, Texas
Let me add this: part of being a complete musician is the ability to sing. In college besides music theory we also did sight singing ( solege) and ear training.

I hear too many players complain they had years of piano but can’t sing or play by ear. That tells me their training was incomplete. It’s not too late. Music is a life long study. There’s always something new to learn or improve.
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#475407 - 09/04/19 07:21 AM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: montunoman]
Dnj Offline
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Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Originally Posted By montunoman
Let me add this: part of being a complete musician is the ability to sing. In college besides music theory we also did sight singing ( solege) and ear training.

I hear too many players complain they had years of piano but can’t sing or play by ear. That tells me their training was incomplete. It’s not too late. Music is a life long study. There’s always something new to learn or improve.



Wise words Paul it's not Rocket science..in fact its alot of fun!

https://app.box.com/s/as8ngfvw1tesg22cq9dn5ce5dn541zvj

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#475409 - 09/04/19 07:31 AM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Donny one of the points I was trying to make in an earlier post..

An accomplished player that plays rhythmic style in the left hand with moving bass notes and chord structure in the right hand that goes beyond a basic 1-2-5 .. A player with a much higher skill level, and to be fluent as a singer is very rare ( sure Barry Manilow)..

The arranger keyboards cover up the ability to excel as a player, but when you have relied as an instrumentalist and developed your skill, it is much harder to sing or even want to sing. Nor is it a necessity.

Just as an example, comfort zone counts... You prefer to play in the key of "C", Play your material in C# or B, does it effect your vocal?

It surly will, because you are not in your comfort zone, and the added awareness and thinking about the different key.

Now for let's say a accomplished piano player that takes much more skill, the concentration to add vocals is much harder to obtain..

Not an excuse but a fact..


PS: Here is my personal example...when our brain power is pushed to limits smile Also a pet peeve.. When someone insist on having a conversation with you while you are playing "live".. especially when you are backing someone else... you can not play a turn around and hold a chord, to answer a stupid question shocked


Edited by Fran Carango (09/04/19 07:51 AM)
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#475412 - 09/04/19 07:40 AM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Fran Carango]
Bill Lewis Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 2441
Loc: Bluffton/Hilton Head SC USA
Originally Posted By Fran Carango
Donny one of the points I was trying to make in an earlier post..

An accomplished player that plays rhythmic style in the left hand with moving bass notes and chord structure in the right hand that goes beyond a basic 1-2-5 .. A player with a much higher skill level, and to be fluent as a singer is very rare ( sure Barry Manilow)..

The arranger keyboards cover up the ability to excel as a player, but when you have relied as an instrumentalist and developed your skill, it is much harder to sing or even want to sing. Nor is it a necessity.

Just as an example, comfort zone counts... You prefer to play in the key of "C", Play your material in C# or B, does it effect your vocal?

It surly will, because you are not in your comfort zone, and the added awareness and thinking about the different key.

Now for let's say a accomplished piano player that takes much more skill, the concentration to add vocals is much harder to obtain..

Not an excuse but a fact..

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
True to be great at both is rare but done. Simply lay back and simplify on the piano while singing and then put more into it on your solos.
Except for Jazz, Classical, and Church I can't think of any other preformance categories where singing is "Not a Necessity".
EX. Diana Krall-started out as a pretty good jazz pianist but what do people know her for, her silky vocals. Check out some of her vids on You Tube.


Edited by Bill Lewis (09/04/19 07:45 AM)
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#475414 - 09/04/19 07:56 AM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Fran Carango]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Originally Posted By Fran Carango
Donny one of the points I was trying to make in an earlier post..

An accomplished player that plays rhythmic style in the left hand with moving bass notes and chord structure in the right hand that goes beyond a basic 1-2-5 .. A player with a much higher skill level, and to be fluent as a singer is very rare ( sure Barry Manilow)..

The arranger keyboards cover up the ability to excel as a player, but when you have relied as an instrumentalist and developed your skill, it is much harder to sing or even want to sing. Nor is it a necessity.

Just as an example, comfort zone counts... You prefer to play in the key of "C", Play your material in C# or B, does it effect your vocal?

It surly will, because you are not in your comfort zone, and the added awareness and thinking about the different key.

Now for let's say a accomplished piano player that takes much more skill, the concentration to add vocals is much harder to obtain..

Not an excuse but a fact..


PS: Here is my personal example...when our brain power is pushed to limits smile Also a pet peeve.. When someone insist on having a conversation with you while you are playing "live".. especially when you are backing someone else... you can not play a turn around and hold a chord, to answer a stupid question shocked


Fran have no idea what your talking about but I will say this....
I am a singer that backs himself up with whatever means is at my disposal, keyboard, backing tracks, SMF, band , or whatever..
to make my vocals shine.Singing is the expression of the inner soul.

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#475420 - 09/04/19 08:29 AM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
Bernie9 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5507
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
This thread has me going now. Whereas, I see where Fran is coming from, I am looking at this as an attainable skill set at this late date. Donny, your explanation, coupled with your examples, has shown me the added excitement that can be added. Maybe simple at first, but I see what can be done with impromptu embellishments. As long as I stick to proper timing and chord structure, I know I can add something meaningful to my performance. Thank you.
_________________________
pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact

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#475421 - 09/04/19 08:37 AM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
montunoman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 3208
Loc: Dallas, Texas
For solo player, singing may not be a necessity if your playing jazz or classical, or background music for some situations. Good luck on getting work anywhere playing instrumental music on an arranger keyboard. Even the seniors venues are now be filled up with folks that didn’t grow up with instrumental music. They stopped playing MUZAK at the dentist office, grocery stores and elevators years ago!
_________________________
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www.youtube.com/channel/UCV94i--V-A8kZShmGTKyDOw

https://www.facebook.com/elgrupocache

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#475422 - 09/04/19 08:38 AM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Bernie9]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Originally Posted By Bernie9
This thread has me going now. Whereas, I see where Fran is coming from, I am looking at this as an attainable skill set at this late date. Donny, your explanation, coupled with your examples, has shown me the added excitement that can be added. Maybe simple at first, but I see what can be done with impromptu embellishments. As long as I stick to proper timing and chord structure, I know I can add something meaningful to my performance. Thank you.


Bernie I know with your experience and a little dedication to practice you WILL be successful singing and playing.
It doesn't take much RH comping to make it happen with an arranger or SMF....you have all the tools don't let them go to waste.
I feel happy I could help in my own small way using these simple examples where you can hear the RH comp......GO FOR IT!

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#475423 - 09/04/19 08:39 AM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
captain Russ Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7285
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
Mel Torme, Ella (she taught me chord inversions), Aretha, Nat King Cole, Michael McDonald, Kenny Rankin, Harry Connick Jr, Sarah Vaughn, Diana Krall....the list of excellent musicians who are superb singers is long, covering many styles of music.Even Joey D is an excellent vocalist.

Like many others, I played in mostly instrumental bands until someone had to sing. I resented the fact that singing took the focus off improvements in instrumental playing.

Now, playing and singing is 2nd nature. I regularly sing tracks
for for fortune 500 companies and can go out on the road as a playing back-up singer for 3 or 4 nationally known acts.

Don't particularly like singing, but it helps pay the bills.

Russ (tone deaf) Lay

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#475425 - 09/04/19 08:42 AM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
captain Russ Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7285
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
Fran, Agree! Happens every week. Dumb-asses!

Russ (Can't You See I'm busy?)Lay

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#475427 - 09/04/19 08:51 AM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
I think that once again many are confusing arranger playing with piano playing. They are two different instruments and require different skill sets, even though of course the arrangement of the keys are the same.
But that's another feature of arrangers, you CAN play them like a piano, to a degree.
Having never really played piano, I think more like a guitar player or other instrumentalist.
I don't think good musicianship can be determined solely by whether you play good piano.
This of course even relates to what we regard as "good feel" or "a great key bed". Having fully weighted keys can be a deterrent to good arranger playing, while being somewhat essential to good piano playing.
I somewhat envy those who can play good left hand bass while singing and playing with the right,because it opens up avenues for using the arranger that I don't have. I can play left hand bass, even bass guitar, but it contradicts the way I basically play arrangers. I haven't developed that particular skill set to a degree where it would enhance anything, and at this point I don't have a desire to do that.
The one reason I keep looking to replace the excellent Korg PA4X is because the semi-weighted keys hurt my fingers after a few hours. So far nothing else has filled the bill completely.
As far as singing, I started trying to do that when the singer quit the band and I wanted to keep getting paid. I was AWFUL and it took years to become adequate. I'm only in the past few years starting to think of myself as a decent singer, with many limitations. Maybe 50 years of doing it every night helps one learn. I'm still learning things...such as how to determine which keys sound best for me, experimenting with playing in different keys. The transpose button works in many cases, but the "licks" you play in one key can be much more difficult to achieve in another key. Actually playing in other keys often sounds different than just transposing everything. But, again, that's another great feature of arrangers; you don't have to play in keys that are difficult for you if you don't choose to invest the time and effort to do that. I can play in any key, but am much more comfortable in "white" keys, such as C,D,E,F,G,A and even Bb. Many good players are more comfortable in Eb, F#, B, but I only use them when I have to. That might be required on the rare occasions when I use music or a lead line.
Sorry for all this rambling, and it's only meant to convey thoughts that relate to the way I use arrangers, in case anyone is interested. It isn't necessarily the way anyone else should. There is no right or wrong way, as long as it brings pleasure to the player and/or the audience, if any.
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DonM

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#475446 - 09/04/19 12:46 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: solomon8]
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 12800
Loc: Penn Yan, NY
Originally Posted By solomon8
Believe me I can't sing. Helen Keller asked me to stop singing.


... how'd she know it was you?😇
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#475447 - 09/04/19 12:48 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 12800
Loc: Penn Yan, NY
Originally Posted By Dnj
Singing is the expression of the inner soul.


..."IF" you can sing.
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#475466 - 09/04/19 02:33 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
Riceroni9 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/15/04
Posts: 1298
Loc: TX, USA
Regretfully, I don't play well and do my best to sing my song creations. The arranger is a "means to an end" for me. I am not a performer in any sense of the word. This unique "club" is made up of roughly 75% performers who make a living with their vocals and arranger KBs. They are a collection of great players with adequate voices and another group of great singers who have mastered all or most of the many facets of an arranger... no matter which make or model.

I feel very lucky to be able to "rub shoulders" and share "war stories" with this talented group. So much to learn and so little time left to master anything... but you folks are so generous. It is much appreciated.

----The other Dave

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#475475 - 09/04/19 03:26 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Bernie9]
bruno123 Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 4912
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
Bernie, when I have to read the lyrics, play left hand chords, and fills with my right hand the song is fare. For that reason, I study the lyrics so I can understand the story. Once I have done this, I do my best to memorize the lyrics. My attention is now on both hands and the changes I have to make in the keyboard. My memory is fair so sometimes I substitute words, but they have the same meaning, and it is accepted.

Take one of your favorite songs and do the above. Sing the song at home, when you feel comfortable go to your keyboard. The first song you do will be the hardest; it gets easier as you go.

I feel that it is not possible to sing with emotions if you are reading the lyric. Trust and confidence will come after you work through a few songs. And, once you begin singing the songs in this manner you will never go back to what you are doing now.

We have to learn to trust our memory, I remember the lyrics to a song I did 25 years ago, I am not sure how it happens, but it does. The same goes for the left-hand chords – there are times when my hand seems to know where to go.

John C.

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#475486 - 09/04/19 04:13 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
John, you are exactly right. I remember words from when I was a kid. If I start off reading them when I play though, it takes a lot longer to memorize them.
Sometimes the text file is open as a safety net. Since lately I've been using the EA7 a lot, I have realized I know a lot more words than I thought. I just did the entire Lyin' Eyes from memory and only missed a word or two. Never knew I could do that until I tried.
I've just added around 20 more songs to my Korg Songbook today, by the way.
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DonM

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#475490 - 09/04/19 04:39 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: DonM]
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Originally Posted By DonM
I think that once again many are confusing arranger playing with piano playing. They are two different instruments and require different skill sets, even though of course the arrangement of the keys are the same.
But that's another feature of arrangers, you CAN play them like a piano, to a degree.
Having never really played piano, I think more like a guitar player or other instrumentalist.
I don't think good musicianship can be determined solely by whether you play good piano.
This of course even relates to what we regard as "good feel" or "a great key bed". Having fully weighted keys can be a deterrent to good arranger playing, while being somewhat essential to good piano playing.
I somewhat envy those who can play good left hand bass while singing and playing with the right,because it opens up avenues for using the arranger that I don't have. I can play left hand bass, even bass guitar, but it contradicts the way I basically play arrangers. I haven't developed that particular skill set to a degree where it would enhance anything, and at this point I don't have a desire to do that.
The one reason I keep looking to replace the excellent Korg PA4X is because the semi-weighted keys hurt my fingers after a few hours. So far nothing else has filled the bill completely.
As far as singing, I started trying to do that when the singer quit the band and I wanted to keep getting paid. I was AWFUL and it took years to become adequate. I'm only in the past few years starting to think of myself as a decent singer, with many limitations. Maybe 50 years of doing it every night helps one learn. I'm still learning things...such as how to determine which keys sound best for me, experimenting with playing in different keys. The transpose button works in many cases, but the "licks" you play in one key can be much more difficult to achieve in another key. Actually playing in other keys often sounds different than just transposing everything. But, again, that's another great feature of arrangers; you don't have to play in keys that are difficult for you if you don't choose to invest the time and effort to do that. I can play in any key, but am much more comfortable in "white" keys, such as C,D,E,F,G,A and even Bb. Many good players are more comfortable in Eb, F#, B, but I only use them when I have to. That might be required on the rare occasions when I use music or a lead line.
Sorry for all this rambling, and it's only meant to convey thoughts that relate to the way I use arrangers, in case anyone is interested. It isn't necessarily the way anyone else should. There is no right or wrong way, as long as it brings pleasure to the player and/or the audience, if any.



Hey Don. there is another chapter for your future book smile
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#475499 - 09/04/19 07:05 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Bill Lewis]
tony mads usa Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 14376
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
Originally Posted By Bill Lewis

EX. Diana Krall-started out as a pretty good jazz pianist but what do people know her for, her silky vocals. Check out some of her vids on You Tube.


When I first saw Diana Krall in concert, I knew her as a fine vocalist ... Walking out of the concert hall I said to my wife "I love her vocals, but she is a really good piano player" ... The next day the music critic for the local paper said almost the exact same thing ...
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#475502 - 09/04/19 07:24 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: ekurburski]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By ekurburski
I sing but when I started customers suggested I stop. Not everyone can sing. I'll go even further and state there are some folks here who believe they are great singers who really shouldn't embarrass themselves. At the least they need to work on getting a good pa and a good mike. Using inferior equipment for vocals is a huge problem with the bulk of local entertainers.


I only sing very soft when playing, with no microphone attached..

I tried singing, i could only get some acceptable results with an earpiece in.. i am not a natural singer..

I also dislike my own voice... its kind of bland, not warm, not many harmoics, a bit nasal..


But most of that, playing keyboards with 2 hands still takes all my concentration, i haven’t mastered it to the level i want to be.. however, i keep moving forward very slowly..



However, for people that want to learn to sing, there are a few ipad apps that tutor you to sing in tune.. so these days there are ways to improve your singing
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#475504 - 09/04/19 10:12 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
VERY few people like the sound of their own voices, at least at first.
When I first started I used so much reverb and bass e.q. that it must have sounded like I was in a deep tunnel somewhere. Gradually got used to hearing it and listening to advice as to how to e.q. I had (still have) a blind friend who would set my e.q. and threaten me with bodily harm if I touched a knob. smile
To this day though, I don't sing without a little E.Q. and effects, as I can't stand the sound of it.
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#475507 - 09/04/19 10:24 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: DonM]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By DonM
VERY few people like the sound of their own voices, at least at first.
When I first started I used so much reverb and bass e.q. that it must have sounded like I was in a deep tunnel somewhere. Gradually got used to hearing it and listening to advice as to how to e.q. I had (still have) a blind friend who would set my e.q. and threaten me with bodily harm if I touched a knob. smile
To this day though, I don't sing without a little E.Q. and effects, as I can't stand the sound of it.


That sounds like some great advice..
If i ever decide to give singing a 2nd chance, i will certainly remember this
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#475510 - 09/05/19 01:29 AM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
Bernie9 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5507
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
"We have to learn to trust our memory, I remember the lyrics to a song I did 25 years ago, I am not sure how it happens, but it does. The same goes for the left-hand chords – there are times when my hand seems to know where to go.

John C."

Thanks John, for the reminder. As far as trusting memory is concerned, I remember my teacher telling me that in 1962. I was a slave to the written score for many years, or, so I thought. It wasn't until ten years ago that I forced myself to trust my memory( brain and finger). The same, of coarse, applies to lyrics. My problem has been in paying more attention to the music, which I remember very well. My wife, on the other hand, can sing hundreds of songs verbatim in perfect pitch, remembering every word. As John has indicated, she takes in the story presented in the song and uses the words to keep her place while playing. Though I am apparently wired differently, I see what has to be done.

Thanks all.
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#475720 - 09/08/19 05:20 AM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
JimboKeys Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/21/14
Posts: 17
I perform with both singing and playing sax: I play sax to give people a rest from hearing me sing, and sing to give people a rest from hearing me play sax ;-)

Seriously, i was one of those kids who was brought up with the idea that i couldn't sing. I'll forever be grateful to the high school music teacher who took that as a challenge to make a singer out of me.

One last bit - a few months ago i was playing a NH and had a request for the Beatles' Eleanor Rigby. Told them i'd learn it and play it for them next time, went home and worked up an instrumental arrangement of it. After i played it for them next month, the response i got was "where's the singing"?

- Jimbo

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#475723 - 09/08/19 07:04 AM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: tony mads usa]
Bill Lewis Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 2441
Loc: Bluffton/Hilton Head SC USA
Originally Posted By tony mads usa
Originally Posted By Bill Lewis

EX. Diana Krall-started out as a pretty good jazz pianist but what do people know her for, her silky vocals. Check out some of her vids on You Tube.


When I first saw Diana Krall in concert, I knew her as a fine vocalist ... Walking out of the concert hall I said to my wife "I love her vocals, but she is a really good piano player" ... The next day the music critic for the local paper said almost the exact same thing ...


Just think if she stuck to just jazz piano would we of ever heard of her with the tons of really good jazz pianist out there ? It was a producer who told her to start singing and I guess it worked. Same in our business, you gotta sing.
_________________________
Bill in SC --- Roland BK9 (2) Roland BK7M, Roland PK5 Pedals, Roland FP90, Roland CM30 (2), JBL Eon Ones (2) JBL 610 Monitor, Behringer Sub, EV mics, Apple iPad (2) Behringer DJ mixer

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#475735 - 09/08/19 07:02 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
Stephenm52 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/05
Posts: 5126
Loc: USA
I recently played a gig at a social/dinner. Initially I played instrumentals while guests arrived, then during dinner I did the same. After dinner I started with the vocals and some upbeat tunes and the crowd came alive, the reaction was completely different to just instrumentals. I attribute it to the vocals.

One of the most successful one man band and band leaders now retired that I know in my home state told me when he first started singing with his band the club owner told him if you continue to sing I WILL FIRE YOU. He didn’t stop singing, got fired, never gave up and years later he was hands down one of the busiest musicians I know. He gave up his very lucrative sales career in the wholesale furniture business to become a full time musician, he did real well. I will add he was also a savvy business man that helped attribute to his success as well.


Edited by Stephenm52 (09/08/19 07:03 PM)

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#475738 - 09/08/19 09:19 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
Mark79100 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/23/06
Posts: 1661
Loc: USA
The reason you can't/won't sing? Is it "inhibition" or simply "lack of confidence in yourself?" Is the singing ability there just waiting for you to tap into it?

A teacher once told me "singing is nothing more than speaking in pitch. If you can talk, you can sing!

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#475767 - 09/09/19 08:20 AM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Mark79100]
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 12800
Loc: Penn Yan, NY
Originally Posted By Mark79100
If you can talk, you can sing!


That's a great "Rudy-esq" speech, but it's SO not true for everyone. Pitch is a gift, and some got it, and some ain't. I never want to hear "bad" anything. I'd rather hear an in-tune Casio than an out-of-tune Steinway etc.
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#475838 - 09/10/19 09:35 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Uncle Dave]
Mark79100 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/23/06
Posts: 1661
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By Uncle Dave
Originally Posted By Mark79100
If you can talk, you can sing!


Pitch is a gift, and some got it, and some ain't.


Pitch can also be learned (if you ain't got it).

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#475839 - 09/10/19 09:53 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Bill Lewis]
Mark79100 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/23/06
Posts: 1661
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By Bill Lewis

As far as " I can't " yes you can it may just take more work than someone else.....find a teacher or youtube some lessons and take some time to work on it every day. It will happen.


In my early 20s, I met "Jane." Jane and I both loved the song More (Mondo Cane). I wanted desperately to sing it to her but, unfortunately, I sounded like an electric garbage disposal unit. In my 30's I started vocal lessons. It was a struggle....good at music, but a plain "struggle" to learn (good) singing. One day, after many years the penny dropped. Actually TWO pennies dropped.

#1: My teacher casually told me "singing is nothing more than speaking in pitch. If you can talk, you can sing!

but....#2 was the blockbuster that catapulted me forward

#2: listen to yourself ....repeat: LISTEN TO YOURSELF

That's when I realized I WASN'T "listening to myself." Not listening to my notes, but focused on the physical dynamics of singing: breath control, mouth position, posture, etc. It's called "over-thinking!" Once I went into "simple thinking mode," and started listening to the notes I was singing, everything fell into place. From not believing I could sing in any way, shape or form (even though I was a good musician), that one statement turned everything around for me. It might not do it for YOU, but it made a world of difference for me. From that point on, I've developed (what I consider) a really good singing voice that I'm happy with.

Don't let anyone tell you you can't do something. You can, but like Bill said, it might just take a little longer. But if you are relentless in your quest to sing, it WILL eventually happen for you.

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#476064 - 09/15/19 01:45 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Mark79100]
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 12800
Loc: Penn Yan, NY
Originally Posted By Mark79100


Pitch can also be learned (if you ain't got it).


Can't agree with that. Maybe "some" can learn, but the initial gift has to be there. Singing is like floating. Not everyone can float.
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No longer monitoring this forum. Please visit www.daveboydmusic.com for contact info

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#476117 - 09/16/19 04:24 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Uncle Dave]
Bill Lewis Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 2441
Loc: Bluffton/Hilton Head SC USA
Originally Posted By Uncle Dave
Originally Posted By Mark79100


Pitch can also be learned (if you ain't got it).


Can't agree with that. Maybe "some" can learn, but the initial gift has to be there. Singing is like floating. Not everyone can float.


But they still show up on Kareoke nights and drown !!! rotfl
_________________________
Bill in SC --- Roland BK9 (2) Roland BK7M, Roland PK5 Pedals, Roland FP90, Roland CM30 (2), JBL Eon Ones (2) JBL 610 Monitor, Behringer Sub, EV mics, Apple iPad (2) Behringer DJ mixer

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#476119 - 09/16/19 04:32 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Bill Lewis]
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Originally Posted By Bill Lewis
Originally Posted By Uncle Dave
Originally Posted By Mark79100


Pitch can also be learned (if you ain't got it).


Can't agree with that. Maybe "some" can learn, but the initial gift has to be there. Singing is like floating. Not everyone can float.


But they still show up on Kareoke nights and drown !!! rotfl


No doubt. Scary. My son loves singing, knows every word for 100s of tunes, ranging from musicals , to pop , rock, rap, loves it all. As for the voice well, enough said. Haha
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Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
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#476121 - 09/16/19 05:40 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
Bill Lewis Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 2441
Loc: Bluffton/Hilton Head SC USA
Good for him. Singing is a great mental stress reliever and fun. No harm no foul
_________________________
Bill in SC --- Roland BK9 (2) Roland BK7M, Roland PK5 Pedals, Roland FP90, Roland CM30 (2), JBL Eon Ones (2) JBL 610 Monitor, Behringer Sub, EV mics, Apple iPad (2) Behringer DJ mixer

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#476126 - 09/16/19 08:37 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Bill Lewis]
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Originally Posted By Bill Lewis
Good for him. Singing is a great mental stress reliever and fun. No harm no foul


Yep, he’s far braver than me. Haha
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best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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