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#475475 - 09/04/19 03:26 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Bernie9]
bruno123 Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 4912
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
Bernie, when I have to read the lyrics, play left hand chords, and fills with my right hand the song is fare. For that reason, I study the lyrics so I can understand the story. Once I have done this, I do my best to memorize the lyrics. My attention is now on both hands and the changes I have to make in the keyboard. My memory is fair so sometimes I substitute words, but they have the same meaning, and it is accepted.

Take one of your favorite songs and do the above. Sing the song at home, when you feel comfortable go to your keyboard. The first song you do will be the hardest; it gets easier as you go.

I feel that it is not possible to sing with emotions if you are reading the lyric. Trust and confidence will come after you work through a few songs. And, once you begin singing the songs in this manner you will never go back to what you are doing now.

We have to learn to trust our memory, I remember the lyrics to a song I did 25 years ago, I am not sure how it happens, but it does. The same goes for the left-hand chords – there are times when my hand seems to know where to go.

John C.

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#475486 - 09/04/19 04:13 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
John, you are exactly right. I remember words from when I was a kid. If I start off reading them when I play though, it takes a lot longer to memorize them.
Sometimes the text file is open as a safety net. Since lately I've been using the EA7 a lot, I have realized I know a lot more words than I thought. I just did the entire Lyin' Eyes from memory and only missed a word or two. Never knew I could do that until I tried.
I've just added around 20 more songs to my Korg Songbook today, by the way.
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DonM

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#475490 - 09/04/19 04:39 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: DonM]
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Originally Posted By DonM
I think that once again many are confusing arranger playing with piano playing. They are two different instruments and require different skill sets, even though of course the arrangement of the keys are the same.
But that's another feature of arrangers, you CAN play them like a piano, to a degree.
Having never really played piano, I think more like a guitar player or other instrumentalist.
I don't think good musicianship can be determined solely by whether you play good piano.
This of course even relates to what we regard as "good feel" or "a great key bed". Having fully weighted keys can be a deterrent to good arranger playing, while being somewhat essential to good piano playing.
I somewhat envy those who can play good left hand bass while singing and playing with the right,because it opens up avenues for using the arranger that I don't have. I can play left hand bass, even bass guitar, but it contradicts the way I basically play arrangers. I haven't developed that particular skill set to a degree where it would enhance anything, and at this point I don't have a desire to do that.
The one reason I keep looking to replace the excellent Korg PA4X is because the semi-weighted keys hurt my fingers after a few hours. So far nothing else has filled the bill completely.
As far as singing, I started trying to do that when the singer quit the band and I wanted to keep getting paid. I was AWFUL and it took years to become adequate. I'm only in the past few years starting to think of myself as a decent singer, with many limitations. Maybe 50 years of doing it every night helps one learn. I'm still learning things...such as how to determine which keys sound best for me, experimenting with playing in different keys. The transpose button works in many cases, but the "licks" you play in one key can be much more difficult to achieve in another key. Actually playing in other keys often sounds different than just transposing everything. But, again, that's another great feature of arrangers; you don't have to play in keys that are difficult for you if you don't choose to invest the time and effort to do that. I can play in any key, but am much more comfortable in "white" keys, such as C,D,E,F,G,A and even Bb. Many good players are more comfortable in Eb, F#, B, but I only use them when I have to. That might be required on the rare occasions when I use music or a lead line.
Sorry for all this rambling, and it's only meant to convey thoughts that relate to the way I use arrangers, in case anyone is interested. It isn't necessarily the way anyone else should. There is no right or wrong way, as long as it brings pleasure to the player and/or the audience, if any.



Hey Don. there is another chapter for your future book smile
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#475499 - 09/04/19 07:05 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Bill Lewis]
tony mads usa Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 14376
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
Originally Posted By Bill Lewis

EX. Diana Krall-started out as a pretty good jazz pianist but what do people know her for, her silky vocals. Check out some of her vids on You Tube.


When I first saw Diana Krall in concert, I knew her as a fine vocalist ... Walking out of the concert hall I said to my wife "I love her vocals, but she is a really good piano player" ... The next day the music critic for the local paper said almost the exact same thing ...
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t. cool

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#475502 - 09/04/19 07:24 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: ekurburski]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By ekurburski
I sing but when I started customers suggested I stop. Not everyone can sing. I'll go even further and state there are some folks here who believe they are great singers who really shouldn't embarrass themselves. At the least they need to work on getting a good pa and a good mike. Using inferior equipment for vocals is a huge problem with the bulk of local entertainers.


I only sing very soft when playing, with no microphone attached..

I tried singing, i could only get some acceptable results with an earpiece in.. i am not a natural singer..

I also dislike my own voice... its kind of bland, not warm, not many harmoics, a bit nasal..


But most of that, playing keyboards with 2 hands still takes all my concentration, i haven’t mastered it to the level i want to be.. however, i keep moving forward very slowly..



However, for people that want to learn to sing, there are a few ipad apps that tutor you to sing in tune.. so these days there are ways to improve your singing
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#475504 - 09/04/19 10:12 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
VERY few people like the sound of their own voices, at least at first.
When I first started I used so much reverb and bass e.q. that it must have sounded like I was in a deep tunnel somewhere. Gradually got used to hearing it and listening to advice as to how to e.q. I had (still have) a blind friend who would set my e.q. and threaten me with bodily harm if I touched a knob. smile
To this day though, I don't sing without a little E.Q. and effects, as I can't stand the sound of it.
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DonM

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#475507 - 09/04/19 10:24 PM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: DonM]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By DonM
VERY few people like the sound of their own voices, at least at first.
When I first started I used so much reverb and bass e.q. that it must have sounded like I was in a deep tunnel somewhere. Gradually got used to hearing it and listening to advice as to how to e.q. I had (still have) a blind friend who would set my e.q. and threaten me with bodily harm if I touched a knob. smile
To this day though, I don't sing without a little E.Q. and effects, as I can't stand the sound of it.


That sounds like some great advice..
If i ever decide to give singing a 2nd chance, i will certainly remember this
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Roland Jupiter 80, Ipad pro.

http://keyszone.boards.net

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#475510 - 09/05/19 01:29 AM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
Bernie9 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5507
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
"We have to learn to trust our memory, I remember the lyrics to a song I did 25 years ago, I am not sure how it happens, but it does. The same goes for the left-hand chords – there are times when my hand seems to know where to go.

John C."

Thanks John, for the reminder. As far as trusting memory is concerned, I remember my teacher telling me that in 1962. I was a slave to the written score for many years, or, so I thought. It wasn't until ten years ago that I forced myself to trust my memory( brain and finger). The same, of coarse, applies to lyrics. My problem has been in paying more attention to the music, which I remember very well. My wife, on the other hand, can sing hundreds of songs verbatim in perfect pitch, remembering every word. As John has indicated, she takes in the story presented in the song and uses the words to keep her place while playing. Though I am apparently wired differently, I see what has to be done.

Thanks all.
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pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact

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#475720 - 09/08/19 05:20 AM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: Dnj]
JimboKeys Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/21/14
Posts: 17
I perform with both singing and playing sax: I play sax to give people a rest from hearing me sing, and sing to give people a rest from hearing me play sax ;-)

Seriously, i was one of those kids who was brought up with the idea that i couldn't sing. I'll forever be grateful to the high school music teacher who took that as a challenge to make a singer out of me.

One last bit - a few months ago i was playing a NH and had a request for the Beatles' Eleanor Rigby. Told them i'd learn it and play it for them next time, went home and worked up an instrumental arrangement of it. After i played it for them next month, the response i got was "where's the singing"?

- Jimbo

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#475723 - 09/08/19 07:04 AM Re: Why don't you sing when you play? [Re: tony mads usa]
Bill Lewis Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 2441
Loc: Bluffton/Hilton Head SC USA
Originally Posted By tony mads usa
Originally Posted By Bill Lewis

EX. Diana Krall-started out as a pretty good jazz pianist but what do people know her for, her silky vocals. Check out some of her vids on You Tube.


When I first saw Diana Krall in concert, I knew her as a fine vocalist ... Walking out of the concert hall I said to my wife "I love her vocals, but she is a really good piano player" ... The next day the music critic for the local paper said almost the exact same thing ...


Just think if she stuck to just jazz piano would we of ever heard of her with the tons of really good jazz pianist out there ? It was a producer who told her to start singing and I guess it worked. Same in our business, you gotta sing.
_________________________
Bill in SC --- Roland BK9 (2) Roland BK7M, Roland PK5 Pedals, Roland FP90, Roland CM30 (2), JBL Eon Ones (2) JBL 610 Monitor, Behringer Sub, EV mics, Apple iPad (2) Behringer DJ mixer

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