Since my focus is on "styles" these days, and being a "style aficionado" I thought I'd drop this comment I've been thinking about for years.

What will kill off arrangers for people like me is the lack of "pure" dance styles and the lack of diversity. Great instrument sounds will always be there but the styles are becoming more bland and more unremarkable and more complex.....and more in control of the player rather than the player in control of the style.

I've heard it said a few times here that most of us only use a dozen basic styles. That goes for me too. When I see a keyboard that advertises 20,000 styles, I already know what to expect. 5,000 C&W 4/4's, 5,000 8 beat ballads, 3,000 bossanovas, etc. They all sound the same to an audience so do you (or your audience) really care?

I find it difficult working around these contemporary jazzed up styles. There is so much going on in the style itself, that I have to "play around it." Not so with the older simplistic styles. With them you had freedom to be yourself and not be a slave to the automation!

You can always strip down the style to just bass and drum . Or even try and edit the style to your liking . There is so much there to play with , it’s hard to understand the situation you are describing being the result of the suggested styles the instrument comes with . Treat them as merely suggestions and start to experiment just swapping instruments in the style and it will open up avenues of creativity for years of fun .

Nothing will kill arrangers or other sophisticated musical instruments off quicker than perhaps lack of imagination , creativity or just lack of desire or interest or time to develops the skills needed to extract the best from these instruments .

This is the same for all musical equipment. I have noticed over the years the interest in learning to play piano , guitar etc have all decreased . Especially amongst the school kids who are focused so much on academic success . I lose most of my piano students by the time they reach age 13-14 because of pressures of school work . And it only gets worse for adulthood .

I think there will come a point where arrangers can't sound any better, just different, unlike 20 or so years ago where you could say that certain brands always sounded better over another (or more professional) than others, not so much now, they have all caught up and reached a peak. For example for me, talking about TOTL models, I noticed from the Tyros 5 onward whereby for the first time I wasn't envious of wanting the next model so much, that goes for the Genos as well, although both are fantastic, neither of them have wowed me enough to change from my T4, that's why I'm finding the mid range arrangers more exciting to experiment around these days & at a reasonably affordable price whilst still retaining a high quality. I could have easily bought a Genos recently but instead bought an S975 & PA1000 and still would of had money left over!

As off now the choices for a keyboardist that wants full accompaniment are auto accompaniment or backing tracks ( either audio or midi) There’s seems to be advances in how tracks can controlled in a live setting with looping sections and such. But you need a pre arranged track of some sort. A musician playing live will sometimes want to play something more spontaneous like maybe a special request or perhaps experimenting with an original song.

I think the instrument will continue to develop, maybe into something we can’t quite imagine now. As long as people play keyboards I see no reason why an auto accompaniment keyboard should die.

Arrangers are already dying, and just like the easy play entertainment organs they spawned from they will become a niche market, (This will happen in the next decade) as the only people that use them will primarily be old fogies and those looking for nostalgia, (Each generation move onto things anew and like the previous generation believe that what they use will last forever) these days everything involves around apps, (Even Apple is moving their Macs to full support for apps, just like Microsoft has been doing since the advent of Windows 10) which fortunately manufactures have realised and made their instruments compatible with iPads (Even organs have done the same) to stem the continuing decline.
As I have said before, before fancy styles came out you could identify a player by his playing style, whereas now all you hear is the instrument, (The styles give everything away) and if you simplify the styles then most fall apart as they were not designed to be simple. (This is the reason I prefer styles on organs, as they are simpler and designed to allow the player through with the additional keyboards and pedals)
TIP: Rather than fighting the new, embrace it and see how you can adapt to your requirements. (Be creative and don’t think one instrument fits all, otherwise you will be in trouble)

Bill

Hi Mark, nice seeing post again. I try not to get into what might happen to the arranger keyboard, and focus on how I can make my keyboard fit my needs.
My opinion:
Styles can become boring, so this is what I am doing to make them interesting.

1-I picture a live band playing, instruments do not play all the time. When someone is singing the instrumentation might be piano, bass, and drums. At another point the brass is featured.

2-I am using a Pa 1000. The keyboard has three dedicated buttons which I have set up #1 to mute the 5 Accompaniments, leaving only drum and bass. #2, mutes the bass and #3m mutes the drums.

3-Pads are next. I spend a lot of time selecting which pad will add to the style. A cymbal might be playing on all four for Jazz. Strings, and brass quietly in the background. A simple finger snapping on the second and fourth beats.

Imagination, imagination, imagination. I listen to the style with the 5 Acc. muted, then add all the pads and I have a variation of the style. Instruments, and volume can be adjusted in the style. The left-hand instrument is important, it should complement the right hand. The volume of the left hand is set somewhere between 70 to 95, I want to hear the left hand slightly below the rest of the instrument.

The last step is to setup the four OS settings, they need to compliment the style and song. This takes a bit of time, but the end product is that the style is me, and the style is not as boring.

My middle name is teaching, I love to help, John C.

PS, Bill there is so much truth and understanding in your posts, NICE.

There is so much style tracks available on my Genos, to combine
Using both the multipads as well as the arps on the modx to add some diversity..

Just create your own jazzy styles..
or in your case switch of some tracks and they are much more simplistic..
Less is more..
i think its all there in my Genos...

The only thing that will bring about the demise of arranger keyboards is the lack of creativity and imagination of users. Nothing more - nothing less. The same holds true with any other musical instrument.

When I hear a style, any style, the very first thing that happens is my aging brain kicks into gear and searches through the cobwebs of my mind for a song that fits that style. The next thing that occurs is I massage that style to make it fit even better than it did originally, tune it to perfection, then try to record that song. This could take just a few minutes, but more often, nearly an hour, or more.

From my perspective, the arranger keyboard is one of the most incredible, musical instruments on the planet. When I lose my sense of creativity and imagination, which I suspect will happen the day I die, at that point it will not make any difference to me.

All the best,

Gary

+1 agreed,......
let's add that the arranger KB is the most
MISUNDERSTOOD instrument also.

Yep, that's why they've always fascinated me - from the first moment as a child I saw my dad purchase an Elka organ for the house (couldn't stop me playing on it), and then from my first experience of a "keyboard", a Casio VL-Tone and then several years later when I got my first job and could afford my own, my first keyboard being a PSS-790 I knew I was going to be in it for life....

Exactly what the home entertainment organ players said when they were told home entertainment organs were dying out, however as predicted they became a niche market, just like arrangers will. (You can’t stop progress or how things change with later generations)

Bill

Lets look at this closer, Bill. We still have animal skins stretched over wooden frames (drums), I think guitars have been around for a couple centuries or so, I clearly recall reading about flutes being carved from hollowed out, wooden sticks about the same time man discovered fire. Around 1400-1413 the earliest known S-shaped trumpet was developed, which was later followed by the folded trumpet and slide trumpet. It was out of the slide trumpet that the trombone developed around 1450. The violin, viola, and cello were first made in the early 16th century, in Italy. The earliest evidence for their existence is in paintings by Gaudenzio Ferrari from the 1530s, though Ferrari's instruments had only three strings. Christian Friedrich Ludwig Buschmann is often cited as the inventor of the harmonica in 1821, but other inventors developed similar instruments at the same time. The Greek engineer Ctesibius of Alexandria is credited with inventing the organ in the 3rd century BC. He devised an instrument called the hydraulis, which delivered a wind supply maintained through water pressure to a set of pipes. The hydraulis was played in the arenas of the Roman Empire.

Bill, all of these instruments are still in existence today in one form or another, and will be around long after we are both dead and buried. Same goes for the arranger keyboard. It's just another new, and often exciting, musical instrument. To my knowledge, NO musical instrument has gone by the wayside. And, there are still at least three major retailers in my part of the world that sell those very expensive home organs and they sell a lot of them. Every musical instrument has a niche, with no exceptions. My song loves to play his solid body guitar, though at times he will sit down at the PSR-3000 I gave him and use it for a drum machine while playing the guitar.

Bill, do you still play an arranger keyboard? If so, why?

Cheers,

Gary

Very well described,
And the top model arrangers get a little more flexible and with every update..

ROFLMAO - I needed that!

Nice mix of responses. I read all of them, and....gave thought to all of them.

There is no correct conclusion to ANYTHING discussed that is arranger related. We all see the product from different angles. And THAT is what makes for a healthy discussion.

So, again, you all have something well thought out to add to the brew in this ongoing saga of the arranger keyboard.

But I need to emphasize the qualifier in what I wrote. And that was....

"What will kill off arrangers for people like ME"

I've been playing arrangers since 1980 when they were still in the embryonic stage. I know some of you go back that far too. For those who don't...the styles in those days were simple but well-thought out. They didn't need any "touching up." If you heard a paso-doble style, you'd think you were in Spain at the bullfights, a cha-cha would make you want to get up on your living room floor and tear up the carpet, a Tango just plain breathed fire, a Polka would make you want to put a classified ad in the paper seeking a polka partner, and so on.

Your suggestions about taking a style and modifying it and tweaking it and eventually owning it is correct. MY problem is three-fold: time, time and time! Music branches out in so many directions now you don't know which road to take. I practice piano 1-2 hours every day and there are many a day I say to myself at the start...."what do I work on today?" Walking bass, Jerry Lee Lewis riffs, substitute jazz chords, boogie woogie, learning a new song, and you get my drift I'm sure.

The double whammy for someone like myself is I find in most modern day arrangers, the styles have strayed so much from authenticity that they drain my creativity. They don't inspire me like they used to back then. And you need inspiration to make great music.

It's really too hard to explain. But it IS something I have thought about for quite a while now. Arrangers will always be around but NOT the styles like they had in the old days.

Oh, and one more thing. Even if I DID have the time to tweak a style, I could never get it done as professionally as a good "old school" drummer would....not to mention the bassist, etc

It’s like the chicken and egg. If you don’t put in the time to practice and explore the instruments capabilities, how will you ever know how good it can sound or how realistic you can mimic a bass or drum just like the style makers do ?

As you practice piano sometimes two hours a day how about just adding 20 minutes a day on replicating a drum track or groove ? See how far you get. It doesn’t take long to develop that skill. Then move on to perhaps a simple baseline. See how that locks with the drum pattern that you made. Try and replicate your favourite still from scratch

We always make time for the things we really want . I have never seen that rule broken .

What will kill arrangers as they currently exist is the death of the user base (old fogies) which is inevitably happening. The manufacturers will have to change the product to fit the needs of the younger player. There is some evidence that they understand this when you look at the Genos which is being marketed as a song writing tool with Beth Nielsen Chapman and others. IMO, they will need to make a system of "mix and match" styles using the touch screen to allow the user to very easily create new styles. That would differentiate the arranger from the workstation enough to make it a viable seperate entity.

I sure hope not. In 20 years, my 53 year old son will be an old fogie, same with my 49 year old daughter. What categorizes an old fogie? Old fogies will be around till the end of time. With luck, everyone will eventually become one - I did, though I've been playing an arranger keyboard since I was in my late 40s. For me, it really changed my musical life and I suspect that will be the case with anyone that decides to delve into the inner workings of an arranger keyboard as a serious musician/entertainer.

Up to that point I was a singer/guitar player with a 5 piece country band, we played weekends, mostly at American Legions, Animal clubs, VFWs, etc... None of us made enough money to cover expenses, but we had a lot of fun. There were times when I would pick up the M-Honer for certain songs, the mandolin for others, I tried the fiddle, but was not very good at it.

Along came the arranger keyboard, I tried one out at the local music store, fell in love and never looked back. The rest is history. Now, after 30 plus years, songs still pop into my head and when I finish this breathing treatment and the dizziness wears off, I'll be at the keyboard trying a new rendition of The Nearness Of You. Yep, it's an old song, but I'm going to try a new spin on it. When I finish, I might post it here.

Good luck, from an old fogie,

Gary

I sure hope so Gary! Looking forward to hearing it!
I am on the list of those musicians/entertainers that have played several instruments over many years, and when I played my first arranger, I was in love, and never looked back!!!

Play On!

Playing arranger kb is a multitasking art form that not many have the talent to pull off. And to add singing to the mix makes it all the more enjoyable and efficient. They tend to think it's too difficult
and in turn go to the easier way of just playing a single type kb, piano, synth, etc,.
That is fine with me, I'm happy and proud to be able to play one to the best of my ability and learning more every day. ....
As far as killing it off that is not gonna happen IMO.

Well said Donny . . .

Lest I be misunderstood, long live all the old fogies, a group of which I am a proud member!

Another factor that will sound the death knoll for arrangers.

So I'm in the Guitar Center a few weeks ago talking to the keyboard manager (we have great music conversations) and he said exactly what we already know. I asked him what kids are buying these days and he answered mostly "production" equipment. Seems they all want to use technology to be great record producers. Not many are interested in actually learning an instrument. I dug deeper. He said they want to be Youtube stars. I scratched my head and asked him what he meant. Seems that everyone wants to be a "star" somewhere..anywhere and the easiest place to do it is to develop a following on Youtube. You see, you can be anybody, and make up anything in front of a Youtube camera.

So fast forward to this week. Would you believe on the 11 o'clock news, that's just what they said. Kids wanted to be astronauts growing up back then.....now they aspire to be Youtube stars.

I personally don't understand it.

One more thing. Arrangers are going to go into extinction also because no one knows how to play one anymore. Not even the salespeople (being PC...politically correct....they're no longer salesmen!). If a salesperson can't demonstrate what they do and CAN do how do you expect to sell one. That's IF you can even find one in the store.

It's all OK for me...I've saved all my arrangers over the years with the Pro-E being #1 in my inventory.

There are lots of people in other countries buying and using arrangers, and a lot of them are young. There are hundreds of YouTube videos of arrangers, especially EA7.

I guess that applies to all real instruments really .

It's my firm belief that if you practice (any instrument) for just the "two hours," and you're doing it correctly, focusing, concentrating, then at the end of that two hour session you'd have to be put on an oxygen tank!

I don't believe practicing is doing finger exercises over and over again. It's about creativity and "creativity" is another word for "mind fatigue." Creativity example: take any song and play it in 100 different arrangements...or play it in a different key, or figure substitute chords, etc

So adding 20 minutes to my two hours would be the "death knell" for me. I'm not drained physically, but "mentally!" I just about fall on the floor when I'm done.

Good thought though, Spalding.

Are they still using live musicians over there in the working men's clubs? One man bands? DJ's? Nothing? The "cabaret" shows in the East End pubs were great breeding grounds for musicians!

Yep, there are still plenty of live bands in the pubs and clubs over here although as you would expect in this day and age there are also plenty of DL’s and Karaoke.

Practice is important providing it is the correct practice (Just do a google search to find out which is best for you) however you should not fee drained at the end of it, (If you are you are practicing wrong) I always remember being told by teachers and musicians that the only difference between home and professional players (Apart from the money) is that a home player practices till they get the piece right, whereas a professional practices till they cannot get the piece wrong.

Bill

I know what you're saying Bill, and in most cases you are correct. However, the type of practicing I'm talking about is what I, myself, do to get better. I think I said it already...taking a song and playing it in different keys, playing left hand arpeggios to every chord the right hand plays, playing left hand scales instead of arpeggios, playing a song in different styles, and all kinds of creative stuff. Believe me. I'm drained at the end of a session.

I've lifted weights all my life and one of the things we learn is: if you're not tired at the end of a workout, and your muscles are not pumped, then you've just wasted two hours of your time!

But....one of the members in the Synthzone said to me a while back: I have to remember that "what works for me might not work for the next person!" I do always keep that in mind.

Walking around casinos in Las Vegas and going on cruise ships arranger keyboards are everywhere.

YEP! Same goes with the all inclusives in Mexico.

Gary

Seriously, what is a better option for a Keyboardist that wants a full backing sound and doesn’t want to play to pre recorded tracks?

A band.

What is wrong with playing along with tracks?