....if you can play. Yeah, I know that most of you already know about this guy but every time I listen to him it just re-enforces Paul's signature note, "It's not the keyboard, it's the musician" (or words to that effect). Forget the usual complaints; "it sounds too robotic", or "it's too repetitive", etc., etc. Nothing robotic or repetitive about this performance. As someone pointed out earlier, there's nothing wrong with a rock-solid precision beat; YOU can supply the syncopation that gives it it's 'groove'.

The lesson here, as far as I'm concerned, is, in every performance, put the emphasis on what YOU'RE doing, not on what the Arranger is doing. Make what the Arranger is doing a STARTING POINT. YOU add the 'special sauce'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQJr0hklTjw

chas

Well said Chas

Whether or not you are into jazz fusion, or whatever, any musician has to applaud this young man's skill in this presentation. I can't believe there were two thumbs down.

Thanks for sharing
Bernie

saw this guy so many times in the past posts great player.....
I think he works for Roli now?..



in no way is he an inspiration for myself.....
I think the main message here is just play your own way
with what you want to use and enjoy music.
An arranger KB is just what it says..
"Arrange the Music" YOUR WAY.
Don't worry what others think, say, or do....
absorb from all sources and continue the musical journey.
Think of what's next arrangers won't be here for ever.

Ditto on all of the above . . . The beauty of the arranger is that you can play it YOUR way, with your style and your personal touch, or NOT!
I have truly enjoyed all the arrangers that I have owned (and still own), and I truly love bringing them to life, as it were, with my own brand of musical stylings . . .
It puts a smile on my face every day . . . .

So many live controls on the Korgs. I've watched this before, but every time I pick up some ideas for techniques and arrangements, not that I play like that, but still there are a lot of good ideas.
He used straight style, chord sequencer, manual bass, full pianist mode, standard arranger mode, various keyboard sets (sounds), joystick, programmable buttons, touch strip and the sliders to bring in or mute style parts.

WOW!

R.

Yeah Don. That's what I forgot to include in my original post; KNOW YOUR INSTRUMENT and learn how to get the most out of it.

chas

I get nothing out of watching somebody play like that knowing that 99% of people can't do that.... I'd rather see somebody play like the Layman if you know what I mean

Well, mr. 'gloom & doom', what are you going to learn from someone who plays on your same level? I think I'll stick with Don's approach. BUT.....to each his own.

chas

Oh you are so wrong I have learned many things from other players everybody does it different you can absorb all kinds of tricks and tips it doesn't have to be some fancy-schmancy guy there is so much talent out there I learned the song Besame Mucho from watching a guy play a battery-powered casio keyboard in the 42nd Street Times Square train station when I was a kid, .... great talent is everywhere you just have to look for it and open your mind...

WOW!! Now I wonder why my Pa4x doesn’t sound like that when I play ( never mind I know why)

Let’s not use this guy to judge arranger keyboards. If you give him two pots, a garbage can and a hum-a-zoo, and he will still sound great.

Chas, I agree with most of what you said, but some of us need a little help from our keyboards. I would say 75% player and 25% keyboard.
I used two pots, a garbage can and a hum-a-zoo, and played for two hours and got nowhere. (smile)

John C.

The one thing Chas and I agree on is that most arranger keyboard players know very little about the OS and features that came with their keyboard. Fortunately, there are some great forums such as this one and the PSR Tutorial forum where you can get answers to your questions simply by asking.

All the best,

Gary

That's because you used a PLASTIC garbage can, John; you gotta use METAL. METAL is the only way to go . Oh, and those POTS; you got the wrong information. It's not POTS, it's just POT; and you're supposed to smoke it, not play it. The audience may not like your performance but YOU will .

The advice found in my posts is always free.

chas

I'll never be an "arranger keyboard player"
I'm a musician/singer/entertainer, and I sometimes use arranger keyboards as a tool to provide accompaniment for my show. I also use many other instruments, like guitar, banjo, uke, sax, Rhodes, and real pianos ... "arranger player" is just not the right way to describe what I do. The kb is just something that I USE, not something that defines me, or my style.
Rant over.
(whew)

That's all well and good Dave but there is in many circles an underlying bad vibe "shame stigma"
within pro musicians that never goes away,
....mentioning that someone is an arranger kb player is becoming almost as bad as saying the K-Word ...
I don't agree & appreciate all art forms especially music.
Maybe we need an Arranger KB Pride Day!!!

I am from the complete opposite extreme. Because I am not at all so talented, I've learned to use all the bells and whistles on my arrangers to the max efect. I am not even ashamed to think of myself as mostly a button pusher. Let the technology work for me - I paid a lot for it and it can do most things much better than I ever could. I absolutely love automation and an arranger is as close as it happens in the musical world!

I guess I am as close to an arranger player as they come. I do PLAY mine (buttons and all) and never use midi for any live performance.

I no longer hear much about the "stigma". And ordinary musicians around here are not even familiar with the term "arranger". They are used to hearing, and using, recorded tracks and playing and/or singing with them, so most assume that's what I'm doing.
The good news is that they can't get my job, hard as some of them try.

Karaoke singers are far more common, and possibly more popular than "arranger players" ... of which I'm neither,
... but I employ both skills to my financial, and creative benefit as the need arises in this changing entertainment marketplace.

I'm an arranger keyboard player. That's why I'm on this forum.

Naw ... you're like me - a keyboard player who embraces the technology of arrangers for what they offer our performance. Don't let the instrument define the player!

Why the stigma by pros exists in the first place
is really the question isn't it?

That said, I am now inspired to sit down and play my
Yamaha S670 Arranger keyboard

I think it's media driven - if they don't see these instruments on TV, or in concert, they aren't aware of them. I blame Casio for sounding so cheesy for so long.

I think the stigma (among professional musicians) comes from the fact that 1) most don't consider it a legitimate instrument; 2) very few mainstream professional musicians use them (or even know what they are ); and 3) they assume that if you're using one, you can't play. And yes, I believe the stigma is still there. I think this is borne out by the fact that pro's refuse to embrace them, even tentatively.

This does not reflect my personal feelings, just my opinion about 'why the stigma?'.

chas

Ditto!

The "stigma" has been this way for 40 years or more since inception,....
then add on all the newer technology introduced to the masses,
all that time and you end up with a big mish-mosh
of devices to play music with. Who's right or wrong?,
no one really knows till this day & beyond..
Let's not forget that no matter what "circles think"
the fact that the "Talent" & what it sounds like is KING
bottom line, no matter what you use, or how it's done.

Arranger Keyboards were designed primarily for the home hobby player, and replaced the home entertainment organ as they were smaller and cheaper, they were also easier to play as you could press a button and everything was done for you without needing to learn how to play bass or accompaniment, (Just use a canned style) there main downside compared to organs and synths etc. is that expression is limited, hence while with organs and synths you could identify who was playing by their style, with an arranger keyboard you just here the keyboard. (Yes there are a few players that make it their own but they are few and far between)

Bill

THIS HAS GOT TO BE THE BEST POST ON THIS TREAD ... STILL RECOVERING FORM LAUGHING HARD !!!! HEHEHEHEHhheeeeeeeee.....

That Chas is a smart witty guy, alright.

Bernie, my father was a VERY witty guy, except to my mother. Ultimately, she wisely chose divorce over murder. I think she went to her grave thinking she made the wrong decision.

chas

Naw Bernie, Chas ain’t that nice. (smile)
John C.

ditto...

Why would a pro even consider using one. They HAVE BANDS AND BACKUP HARMONY SINGERS ETC ... Arrangers are entirely for those THAT DON'T HAVE BANDS ETC. For those that don't have bands then arranger keyboards are the obvious choice. I don't think it is even a question of pro performers avoiding them. Pro performers and arrangers are worlds apart.

I'm sure glad I didn't know that during the past 20 or 30 years. I would have had to get a real job!

An arranger keyboard is still a keyboard 😳. Why would a pro not use a keyboard of any kind ? If I sat in a concert with other live musicians as I often do playing the keyboard parts or supplementing the horns or playing sine wave lead or synth pads , do you think anyone knows including the other musicians I am playing with that my keyboard is an arranger ?

It has been said over and over that an arranger keyboard is a multipurpose instrument and it’s versatility is its greatest strength but unfortunately least known strength because of a basic prejudice that still persists that somehow the automation is essential when playing an arranger keyboard . It simply is not . But it’s great to have it when you do t have a band in situ and you need to sketch out a musical idea , as well as produce partial or complete tracks or surprise surprise just sit and play keyboards .

Spalding, I love your post. It is the lack of imagination and not the instrument that gives an arranger it’s so called a bad rep.

I was tuning a piano in a high-end country club. I heard that were looking for a piano player for their dinning room. When I told them, I played a keyboard they said no, they wanted a piano player. I asked them to give one night, I got an OK.

I turned my Kn7000 into a piano. Every instrument in the styles, except the drums and bass, were replaced by a piano. What they heard was soft drums, a gentle bass, and piano. They replaced me after fours years, the powers to be wanted to see a piano in the dinning room.

John C.

You’re missing the point Spalding, even if you are correct, an Arranger Keyboard is an Arranger keyboard because of its Auto Backings, (It’s just a modern version of the old Easy Play Organ backings) take these away and it is no longer an arranger keyboard, just a normal synth/workstation, however if you look on the market you will find much better synth/Workstations with better voices, features and flexibility then an arranger keyboard for considerably less money, so why would a pro pay more money for less, just to get features (Auto-Backing) that he doesn’t want or need.

If you are in a band/group then you do not need auto backings as the band/group supplies far superior backings to the arranger, the same applies in the studio, as you can use software/hardware to make a far superior backing than an arranger keyboard with canned styles. (In most cases for considerably less money)

For what they are, (The home hobby player who no longer wants an organ) arranger keyboards are brilliant, and as you say great for OMB and a sketch pad, but when you have much better available for less money geared to the pro market, they are an unnecessary luxury.

Bill

I think Bill is 100% spot on. To point out it's NON-arranger features as justification for pro use misses the point. He DID acknowledge it's potential value as a 'sketch pad' or for OMB use, but aside from that and 'home' use, there would be little reason, musically or economically, for a 'pro' to choose an arranger over a conventional synth/workstation. Based upon who buys them, at least in the American market, I'd say this analysis is pretty much indisputable. To say otherwise is just being unrealistic and/or defensive about something we PERSONALLY like and use. What we perceive as a stigma by other musicians may in fact just be a well-thought out decision by a professional musician based upon their needs and economic considerations.

I think the whole concept of auto-accompaniment, from 'easy-play' organs to modern Arranger keyboards, was to help the less-accomplished musician improve their performance. The best way to do that is to provide 'professional' accompaniment with an 'amateur' skill level. As with anything, the more skilled the player, the better the performance, whether using an arranger keyboard or an acoustic piano. And no, I don't 'hate' arranger keyboards (I have three of them). I don't think Bill does either. Just pointing out the facts.

chas

Like my dear friend, DonM, I'm sure glad I didn't know all this or I would have had to find a real job, too.

Also like many others on this forum, we have been in bands for many years, some still are, such as TonyM, but for one reason or another, we prefer being on stage with our arranger keyboards. In my case it was a combination of economics and reliability. The guys I performed with were all considered great musicians in their own realm - no doubt about it. The problems I encountered with some was they failed to show up on time, and some had a drinking problem, which by the end of the night effected their performance ability.

Economically, even when we played the highest paying jobs locally, at best we managed to scrape out $100 per person before expenses for a 4-hour job. Jobs for a full band didn't come along more than once a week, and it was impossible to support a family on $100 a week, even back then. Consequently, I went solo, switched to the senior circuit, switched from a 12-string guitar and singing to an arranger keyboard and singing, and was able to find work 7-days-a-week. I wasn't a better player or worse player because I switched to an arranger keyboard, well, maybe a bit better because it really improved my timing.

Ironically, my audiences were all about the same age, despite whether I was playing in an upscale restaurant in Baltimore's Little Italy or a retirement community on the outskirts of town. Even when I performed at The Raven Inn, a local nite club in Towson, MD, the audiences ranged from 55 to 75 years of age, with an occasional 25 to 35 year old couple on the dance floor.

Now, when I was a have guitar will travel entertainer, I thought I was pretty versatile, but in reality, I was not. Sure, I could vary my style of strumming and picking, but it was still just a single person on the stage with a guitar and singing.

When I switched to an arranger keyboard, that single entertainer on stage was transformed into the most versatile player in the area. I could play just about any song there was and do it with a style that lent to that song sounded very close to the original rendition, which is what the audiences wanted to hear. Yet, I still had lots of latitude to be creative, add some licks of my own, throw in some neat breaks and utilize sounds that I never had access to with the band. I was having fun, making lots of money, and only working a couple hours a night, or day.

Ironically, most of the pro musicians I worked with were still working one day a week or less, they were still just as proficient as they were in the past, but ALL had other forms of income other than music. I was not nearly as musically skilled as some of them, but I was working every day, often more than one job a day, putting money in a savings and retirement account and able to support my family. For me, the arranger keyboard is probably the most versatile, musical instrument ever created - bar none! There is absolutely no limit to what you can do with it both on stage and off. You just need to use some creativity.

When it comes to stigma of playing an arranger keyboard on stage, I believe the only stigma comes in the form of professional jealousy. Yep, I'm on stage, singing and playing to a variety of audiences, and making a damned good living doing so, while those guitar players, sax players, horn players, piano players, etc... are sitting in the audiences and not working.

Good topic,

Gary

I used to play guitar in a church band. Some services, when everyone was in perfect unity, the music was awesome and extremely uplifting.

Then came the next Sunday and it was just the exact opposite for whatever reasons. This drove me into the arms of an arranger. As long as I am tuned in to the Holy Spirit, the music is awesome. Only myself to blame if not.

I am not a professional in any way or form. But the arranger sure works for me. When we do open air outreaches we unpack our stuff and then wow!!! The area comes to life with vibrant music with only me and Monica on "stage".

I sure love my arrangers with all their automated features!!!

Gary, even if every thing you say is true, it is so NOT THE POINT. Every time someone tries to make a valid point about arranger keyboards, some devotee' will perceive it as some kind of slight and immediately go to defcon 1 and rattle off the same old irrelevant BS. Even when the OMB, 'sketch pad', home amusement exceptions are noted, it seems to make scant difference. Out come the sabers (in the form of unrelated arguments). You don't need to be a great driver to make a living driving for Uber or Lyft but you do to compete in Formula One. What does job frequency or your saving habits have to do with anything Bill or I said? It just means that you're a responsible family man who was able to maximize a minimal skill set with the help of a semi-automatic keyboard. It does NOT de-legitimize anything Bill or I said in our last post.

Hey, my thing is organs, specifically Hammond organs or their digital clones. Everybody doesn't share my love of organs; truth is, I literally can't stand the sound of theatre organs and/or pipe organs; they grate on my nerves the same way accordions and bagpipes do. So I guess you could say I'm more a fan of the JAZZ organ/rock organ sound rather than the physical instrument. Whatever. No need to take every observation about arrangers (especially the true ones) as arranger bashing. Also, the old "why are on this forum?" thing is getting kind of old as well. I can't speak for Bill but for me, after all these years, there are people on this forum that I genuinely like and enjoy communicating with AND...I OWN THREE (3) ARRANGERS (and two more in storage).

chas

Henni, I was a church pianist/organist/choir director ever since my teenage years. So I am familiar with "church music" and I'll say an arranger keyboard is a double-edged sword to use a biblical expression, especially in a church setting. However, it seems that you know how to wield it. So more power to you!
Chris

Abacus and chas I genuinely respect you both . But if I may I would like to suggest that you both are missing the point .

What sets an arranger apart from most other keyboards is not want it can’t do compared to other keyboards but absolutely what it can do compared to other keyboards .

Most musicians know that an arranger has auto accompaniment and like bill and chas mistakenly pigeon whole the keyboard as this one trick pony .

Most do not know what else the instrument is capable of !

That’s the point .

It’s literally like saying I have a mountain bike that has multiple gears including very low gears but I would never ride it on the road because it has low gears . its high gears are ignored , it’s comfortable seat and seating position light but incredibly strong frame don’t matter as it’s unsuitable for use in the road because it has these pesky low gears that I probably won’t use cuz their associated with mountain biking !

Similarly I don’t know why you both bring in issues that have very little to do with whether one uses an arranger keyboard or any keyboard to argue why a pro won’t consider using an arranger keyboard .

When in a studio setting , does the equipment , software hardware you are connecting to realise you are using an arranger keyboard and decide it won’t connect ? When making tracks does your client know whether you used an arranger to lay down the tracks ? Even if you used styles or laid down each and every note yourself ? Does the sound engineer immediately say “get that arranger out it’s only good for hobbyists and one man bands! “

If I buy a great sampled piano or guitar for an arranger or workstation can you hear the difference when that sample is played on either board ?

Furthermore chas to use the argument that most pro players don’t buy arrangers to explain why most pro players would not play an arranger is simply circular reasoning .

They don’t buy them for lots of reasons whether that’s expense or availability’ or lack of awareness or whatever does not explain why they would not play one .

Last time I looked , they come in various sizes the keys are black and white , they can have lots of wonderful sounds and editing facilities and split points and set ups and songbooks (incidentally that the workstation world borrowed from arrangers )so why would they not play them ?

As for cost , does a pro player look at the keyboard they are about to play and then say “how much did it cost ? Nope I can’t play that !! It’s too expensive !! “

In short talk to me about the things 40,50,or 60% of things a pro musician does routinely in the pubs and clubs and studios and stages and holiday resorts around the world that they routinely could not do on an arranger . I’d really like to know .

Listen I am tired and a bit grumpy today after having to explain to my boss why serena Williams is not the greatest player to have ever played the sport of tennis 😩 including every male player . That the wage gap is a mathematical hoax and not everything is determined by hierarchy power . Don’t get me started . Enjoy your evening folks .

"There is none so blind as he that WILL not see".

chas

Love you chas as my musician brother 👍. But as an expositor you could use a little coaching 🤣.

Gary, Obviously, I don't know what years you are talking about when you were squeezing out $100 each before expenses, but from around the mid 70s we were charging $1000 to $1200 for 5 guys, 4 hours ... Late 70s to 1984 when I moved to RI it was$1300 - $1500 ...
Guess I was lucky to be playing in the greater NY area ...

If I were playing in a full time band today I would probably opt for a multi voiced digital piano that also had strings and vibes, and a Hammond clone of some sort ...

And Gary, just as a point of information, 99% of my work is OMB ... when I do have the opportunity to play with other musicians, it's usually just a guitar player or sax player ...

But what does all of this waste of bandwidth prove?!? - NOTHING ...
We should all just be happy we are still here and able to provide music and enjoyment for others - even if we are using wax paper on a comb !!!

(Wow, I haven't needed a comb in years ! ... oh, wait, that's another thread )

Ok, had to look up the word (expositor) , but in my defense let me say, it is incumbent upon the other party to listen without bias. Oh, and love you too, Bro', mainly because of the work you do with our youth. That may be the single MOST important thing any of us can do (personally, I can't stand the little maggots but I do recognize the importance of providing a positive environment for them to grow into good productive citizens). I assume (and hope) you're still working with the youth choir. Have a good day and in the meantime I'll work on trying to articulate things in a way that's easier for you to understand . I'll ask Bill to do the same .

chas

What we have here, Chas and Bill, "Is a failure to communicate." That's OK. I can see this thread is going nowhere fast.

Spalding - you hit the nail on the head!

Sure glad I drink,

Gary

No, I think he hit his thumb, the nail was untouched .

chas

It was a thumb I wasn’t using much anyway chas 🤣 I play arrangers keyboards after all . Only need to press buttons . In fact my thumb is so big now I can press multiple buttons at once ! That’s got to be a good thing right ? because everyone knows that being able to press multiple buttons is consistent with making great music on an arranger . The converse is true when playing them workstation thingies like wot the pros use. .....

It's been fun.

chas

Just a side note...

Just within my friends here are some Pro players that chose and use "arranger" keyboards..

Don Mason
Donny Pesce
Dave Boyd
Jerry Treoce
Harve Mann
Joe Flanagan
Paul Kasper
Kristin Coryell

There are many more.. Sure we use the arranger keyboard in different ways, but we use it as our preference.

There are so many Professional players I know that are clueless about arrangers.


Several of these folks are the best at what they do.

Thanx Fran I am honored to be mentioned on that list among such talented professionals who I admire & respect...
and I would also without a doubt add your name
to the top of the list as a true friend and mentor..

If Arranger keyboards are not for professional musicians...I guess Keith Jarrett is not a professional musician. If I’m not mistaken...he bought this Tyros 4!

Fran, we already omitted OMB's, home users, and songwriters using them as sketchpads, from the population of pro users, so could you redo your list. If everybody wasn't so hell-bent to defend something that's not even under attack, we could have had a much more meaningful and productive conversation. There is one thing that is for sure about old men; once they settle on a mindset, no matter how irrelevant or unrelated, that's IT. Any effort to get them back on track is doomed to failure. Oh well, luckily no one takes old men seriously anyway .

chas

Keith is a known nutcase. The proof is that he chose a Yamaha over a Korg.



chas

PS: I don't think Keith Jarrett is representative of the average pro musician.

There are several connotations related to the term "Professional".
It may be used when referring to someone who does a certain job for money.
It may be used when referring to someone who has a job with which having a college degree or higher is the norm, such as doctors, lawyers, accountants, people who were suits, etc.
And it may be used when referring to someone who has attained a very high level of expertise in a certain discipline.
Or, evidently, it may be used when telling someone they can't be a professional because that person uses a certain type of equipment. This perception may or may not be caused by some degree of ignorance of the aforementioned equipment, or the use of it.
I'm a professional entertainer who uses arranger equipment. I'm not sorry if I don't fit certain criteria but, I do make money doing it, I do have a couple of college degrees, I often wear a suit, and have attained a fairly high level of expertise in my chosen discipline.
But still, many people who play guitar and/or sing, and play a little on weekends when they are off from their "real" jobs, find it necessary to criticize my choice of gear. Go figure.
And as Forest Gump said, "That's all I'm gonna say about THAT".

Anyone can talk...
But Again and again let's hear what you got...
Is always the Bottom line... Plain and simple.

Just got home from the boat (sailing yacht), went through the thread again, then poured some Jim Bean Honey Bourbon in a 12-ounce glass filled with ice cubes. Then I went back to listen to Marco again, noted all those automatic things he relied heavily upon, break buttons, variations, multi-pads, automatic, exact tempo and neat, synthetic instruments. Great things that are primarily on an Arranger Keyboard. Granted, he a very accomplished player, which I never claimed to be - Hell, I'm just a hack entertainer that made hundreds of dollars while playing an arranger keyboard and singing in front of audiences up and down the East Coast. That's what allowed me to retire, buy a sailing yacht, and sit here and drink bourbon. Guess I must be in the pro category as well, but didn't make Fran's list, but that's OK, too.

Bottom's Up!

Gary

Gary, don’t feel bad, I did not make the list either. My keyboard helped to support four children, a wife, bought a house in Florida, and I am retired with enough dollars to support me worry free.

aaaaaaaah, I just had to write that, it makes me fell good. Fran is high on my list, he’s OK.
Life is good, John C.

I think, as Don alluded to, that the designation 'Pro' or Professional denotes a level of expertise over and above the 'amateur' level. Proficiency, not the ability to make a buck, should be the measure of a Professional. Legends such as Charlie Parker, Bud Powell, even the great Billie Holiday, all died broke or at least much poorer than most of you guys, but no one would ever question whether or not they were Professionals. The kid that cuts your grass for money is NOT a professional landscaper. If he cuts enough lawns, he can actually make a living doing it.....but he still isn't a professional landscaper.

What's sad about this post is that, like all others before it, no matter what the original point or premise was, it always deteriorates into a defense of arrangers and/or arranger players. I love stuff like "well Keith Jarrett played one, I think he even bought it". Really, well did you ever see him play one in concert, on a stage, in a recording? No, I didn't think so. This entire post is so far south, mainly because in their eagerness to defend the honor of arrangers and arranger players, almost everyone missed the gist of the post. The fact that in the world of professional musicians, very few use arrangers, is merely a fact (for whatever reason), not a criticism of your choice of equipment. Even when a poster acknowledges it's value in a OMB act, it's ignored and the battle lines are still drawn. Sad that our (misguided) emotions won't (or can't) allow for any kind of meaningful discussion about arrangers that doesn't shower the instrument with praise and glory. Oh well.

chas

Guys, I think we have all missed a critical element here. For me, the choice of equipment is shaped by the intended final product.

If you want to sound like a 10 piece band, you "ain't" gonna get there with just a piano. If you are playing where dancing is a part of the deal an arranger gets you mostly there, with some significant limitations/compromises.

If you are an entertainer doing show material as a single, the arranger may be the way to go if you don't want to do karaoke
or use tracks in some other way.

Use equipment, but don't become dependent on it, I say. Decide what satisfies your need to play, and DO IT!

I am cutting back, and a local restaurant wants me 2 hours Thursday and 4 hours on Friday and Saturday. It's in a bar, attached to a dining room, so I am contemplating using an SD-5 for the drums, a Hammond SK-1 on top for the organ and left hand
and a Roland synth over an electric piano on the right hand.

Frankly, part of the reason will be for looks. I'll also have a double neck, a Strat, a nylon string, a jazz box and a hi bred, with a pick-up and piezo. And, yes, if the tune(s) and crowd requires it, I may use the arranger function occasionally. And, yes, the equipment will stay on the band stand.

Look, rarely is any situation ideal. If it were, I'd be making $50,000 a night playing fusion.

I am not particularly fond of my restaurant gigs, and it's hard to get off on playing music to be used to sell paint. But to not realize how lucky I am to be making a great living doing all the things I love would be silly.


For me, as the poster boy for those who are entertainment skills shy, I'm satisfied playing guitar and keyboards without the help of an arranger. That's because I'm now in a dining room, playing 2nd fiddle to a ham sandwich.

However, when I want to do a film score rough quickly, with complete orchestration, the arranger fits the bill. In fact, many people think the rough is the final product.

For me to bemoan the fact that I don't play what I like would be really ungrateful of the opportunities I've had.

So, at my age (too old to change), I'm gonna play any damn thing I want to, any way I want to.

You should, too.

Russ (the grump) Lay

Simple...Just use what You like and works for YOU! Who cares about what others think...Know Nothing Harold

Alright Chas I will redo... somewhat.

Dave, Joe, Harve, Paul, and myself, play mostly left hand bass.

Paul doesn't play solo (except accordion gigs). He plays in a 5 piece band for over three decades.

I don't play arranger mode on a job or very rarely.
I usually use the arranger to record a track, save as a SMF, and add lyrics for my needs..

Chas, though we rarely agree on anything at all, which is just fine, maybe you should research why certain, pro-musicians DO NOT embrace an arranger keyboard, then report your findings here so we misguided arranger performers can fully understand why they look down at this wonderful instrument. I know you have loads of pro-musician friends that you can ask about this.

Inquiring minds would like to know,

Gary

Chas...I think your statement pretty well sums it up. If we ain’t havin’ fun...then what’s the point!

Well Gary, we DO agree on religion, and that's why I cling to you like a beacon of hope on this forum . As to your other question, I think (along with Bill (Abacus)) that I alread answered it. Go back and read it again, this time without the Jim Beam Honey .

chas

I didn't make the list either, but compared to some I'm just an amateur ... but then, I get paid for what I do, and in some circles that DISqualifies you from amateur status ...

You guys are in the many more group

The ones I listed are people that I have, worked with or heard.. except for Don M, but I have heard a lot of his realtime recording.

Donny was the only Yamaha guy Right now!!!

I'm firmly in the Bontempi camp now.

Let’s simplify this, ask any musician why he chose the instrument he plays and they will tell you that it does what it wants and was at the right price, ask him why he didn’t choose another type of instrument and he will tell you that they do not do what they want or were too expensive, there is no one size fits all and to get upset because someone didn’t choose the instrument you play is immature.
A number arranger players complain that pro musicians look down on arrangers and their players, then they do exactly the same and look down on other musicians that chose a different type of instrument to an arranger, however as I said in my first paragraph, there is no one size fits all, so just accept it like musicians have been doing for 100s of years. (Throwing your toys out the pram because someone has different needs to you is a pointless exercise)

Bill

Fran ... No harm, no foul ... the list didn't mean anything to me ... All 'tongue in cheek' ...

Bill no one has thrown their toys out the pram . It’s an arranger discussion board and we are politely and courteously discussing ideas about the use of (and misunderstandings about arranger keyboards ) in relation to professional use .

I can frame it this way , we know that the automatic styles differentiate arranger keyboards from other workstation or performance keyboards . The automation element means that the pro musician can sound like a full orchestra , or a pop jazz or funk band or a trio and pretty much anything in between immediately without the use of supplementary software or hard ware . Something that only very talented musicians can do with multiple keyboards , not just one . So we are clear , we know that if a pro musician never ever requires to earn a living by supplementing his/her income from this type of functionality then styles may not be essential .

We also know that the vast majority of pro musicians don’t make mega bucks , don’t tour with Jay Z , don’t have roadies and don’t go on world tours . That’s a very small proportion of pro musicians .

But pretty much everyone agrees styles are useful for sketching out quickly ideas and prototype songs which might have income generating benefits . Think tv , radio , promotional musical snippets . I believe at least one member here makes a healthy living doing just this or mostly this .

The question I have asked multiple times and to date have not even heard a plausibly relevant answer is why would a pro musician not use an arranger to play in professional use ?

I would like to know what functions does a pro musician use their instrument for 90% of the time , whether live in a band , on the road , in a pub club or studio ,that they can only do on a non arranger keyboard ?

Is it stacking multiple layers of sounds ? How many layers do most pro’s use , 2,3,4,8 ? When does it start to sound like crap ?


Is it the manipulation of sound ? Filters , sweeps , effects editing , envelope editing and sculpturing ? Is it polyphony or split points ?

Is it controller functionality ?

Is it sampling sounds and manipulating the sample to make your own sound ?

Is it sequencing songs within the keyboard before taking it to the studio to do the full flush production ?

Some one please enlighten me what is it that pro musicians do with their instruments 90% of the time that they could not do on let’s say the korg pa4x keyboard. I have mine set up in the house so I can see if the answers I get “it any “ are plausible.

Not looking for an argument . I am looking for answers . I am not a pro musician but as gospel musician I get to work with pro musicians and I can tell you that ignorance and peer pressure is very real in the gospel semi pro circuits I move within certainly in the uk

I actually prefer using arranger keyboard playing in live band, I can select sounds to left or right hand faster and change octaves etc. also new arranger keyboards (like Genos) come with better sounds than many of the workstation keyboards

I don't know but it must be some reason pro musicians buy synth/workstations probably 100/1 over arrangers. And trust me, manufacturers know this. Who knows, maybe pro's are just dumber than the rest of us. Oh, and one more factor; AGE. I'm willing to bet that the average arranger keyboard buyer is over 60 while the average age of the synth/workstation buyer is probably 20-35. Same as back when there were only easy-play home organs.

chas

Funny you should mention layers. (and more layers) Fran and I discovered long ago that the more layers you add, the more it turns into a FARFISA ... not that that's a bad thing, but you start to loose the individual integrity of each voice, and they combine to make a brand new (organish) entity. Some like that sound. Even I like the mega timbre of a theatre organ, but not for what I usually do. I like a more stripped down tonality ... like I was playing in my favorite band. Good solid bass player, Ringo on drums (not flashy), tasty keyboard comps, with string, choir, organ layers when needed, and a funky rhythm guitarist. Add a tight horn section, and I'm in heaven.
An arranger keyboard puts all those elements at my fingertips.

Chas, I'll take a stab at this

First and foremost Pro caliber players are clueless what can be obtained from a top arranger keyboard.. and yes it has the ability to do anything they can do live with a workstation synth.

Secondly, They do not want to be affiliated with average players that actually can sound as good as they do, to the average listener..

3rd,,, The stigma of what they were taught to believe as true , but never understood the truth..(sort of like a democrat)

No I don't want to talk politics

Great answer Fran

Great answer??? Why would a "professional caliber" player be more "clueless" than some ol' fart who after 50 years has barely risen to the status of competent amateur. What we're talking about here is TECHNOLOGY. Can you honestly say that 'Grandpa' knows more about Xbox and playstation than the average teenager? Grandpa can barely figure out the object of the game. We say that pro musicians are clueless about arrangers and their capabilities but how much does the average (elderly) arranger player know about the capabilities of modern synth/workstations? I'm guessing, not much. Among arranger players, you will find that it's the most technically sophisticated (about 5%) that are most likely to include synths, workstations, and VSTi's in there arsenals. They are also usually younger than their arranger-playing peers. There are acclaimed pianist, acclaimed organist, acclaimed violinist, acclaimed guitarist, even acclaimed synthesist (sp) ie. Jan Hammer to Corry Henry, but to my knowledge, NO acclaimed Arranger players. This may speak to it's legitimacy as a distinct instrument (that's for you to decide).

So many of the posts in this thread have had such a strong defensive nature, but wasn't triggered by the original post (go back and read it). That started with DONNY'S series of 'stigma' posts and went nuts from there. Ironic too, since he is one of the biggest complainers of taking a post 'south'. Since the consensus here is that I am an arranger hater (totally untrue - I've owned a string of them going back to the G800), every post that appears to be aimed at me, no matter how far-fetched or factually inaccurate, always gets a rousing cheer from the rank and file. Oh well, it's lonely here at the top .

chas

I have no comments you folks have said just about everything that needs to be said.

Chas, my point was the Pro guys don't need the auto play for the type of performance.. But since the arranger has auto play , they look pass it, even though it is every bit as powerful as what they play..

BTW: the same pro players will think nothing about using arpeggios (auto), and they are inferior to the results that an arranger will give you..

I have seen many pro caliber players (that would be talent wise), that will also never get rich playing :), they are surprised when you show them how a top model arranger is faster and more efficient than their keyboard. Why would you think that just because they have a high skill level , that they understand technology as it concerns arranger keyboards.. They block it out of their mind just like most musicians.

Just recall how many times "pros" come in to see Don Mason, and have no idea what he is doing.. They think he is playing mp3 tracks.

Musicians in general are not as aware as you think..

Chas I must be in that 5 percent group, I have used workstations(named appropriate ) and synths.. What drawn me to arrangers, was the ability to do the same thing I was using 3 keyboard to do... with much more ease, and better sound. And that is where folks are missing the boat.

How can you expect "pros" to no anything about arranger keyboards when music store personnel are also clueless
Now there is another stigma

PS: Chas you are just mad because I made fun about a democrat

Not at all Fran. Unlike some among us, I know when you're serious and when you're just kidding. But since you mentioned it, looking back on the last 2 1/2 years of divisiveness, racism, misogyny, nepotism, self-enrichment, pathological lying, rollback of environmental protections, climate denying, bullying, personal attacks on political adversaries including the press and longtime national allies, coddling of murderous tyrants and sworn enemies of America, and a highly UN-American treatment of immigrants legitimately seeking asylum from abject poverty and extreme violence; I guess I have to say I AM proud to be a Democrat. Oh well, as I always say "There is none so blind as he that WILL not see". I love biblical quotes even if I'm not a big fan of the whole book .

chas

Eze 11:19-20 & Eze 36:26-27 sums up the whole book.

Big Ditto

There are things going on here that have nothing about keyboards. It stinks!

Nigel’s creation was created for people to visit and have a place to share; and add to their love of music.

One of the best things I have learned is --- when a ball is rolled to you, and you do not like the game –and you do not roll back, the game is over.

John C.

Exactly John.... That's why there is a Bar

I think Fran was just 'pulling my chain' as I sometimes do his...all in fun. Perhaps he should have chosen a way that didn't have political overtones BUT I also probably should not have responded (I knew he was only kidding). For that I apologize. I would hate to see someone leave a great forum like this for something that I participated in (however trivial), even if I didn't initiate it. Still, as adults, I also think we need to not be so thin-skinned. There's also such a thing as OVERreaction.

Again, my apologies for not just accepting a friendly (and harmless) jab for what it was and just smiling and ignoring it.

chas

Donny, don't exacerbate it. Just leave it alone.

chas

It's OK guys, Chas has the right to be wrong. He works very hard at it!

All the best,

Gary

Politics may be an inappropriate subject here, but, damn it, now is the time to fix some very bad things going on.

R.

I read you loud and clear Gary, always have. No surprise that you view ME as the culprit here. What's new.

chas

After this date I will no longer be responsible for what my friends say

BTW: take all political nonsense to the bar... that is also why you will not see me in the bar.

Just because I am stubborn I will push back one last time .

You will notice that yet again the folks who claim arrangers keyboards for professional use as a regular gigging keyboard for 90% of the use a pro would need (no automated Styles involved ) , have still not commented on why an arranger like the korg pa4x would be inappropriate for general professional use .

So here we are again . Strong opinions with no substance .

I had an hour long conversation yesterday with one of my fellow musician friends who is semi professional ( like most pros are as it’s hard to make living and provide for your family on just music ) .

I asked him the same question as in my previous post . He owns the Yamaha XF workstation . Do you know that when he gave examples like

“ assignable switches and controls “ I asked him what for ? And when he told me answers like “ to change filters , resonance , release and mix sounds on the fly like adding phaser and tremolo effects , mixing multiple parts like drum tracks etc “ and I told him I could do that too , he was genuinely surprised .

He told me that he sometimes used his assignable faders to control the draw bars on the organ simulations he had .I told him I Did the same . He said but what about percussion and controlling the Leslie effect or adding dirt “distortion “ to the sound ? I told him I could do that and explained how these effects can be assigned to specific buttons or directly on screen in real-time .

He said “what about customising your sounds and saving them as performances for specific songs ? “ I told him about the multiple keyboard set ups , effects volumes mixes and assignable functions I could store and recall on a single button push called a keyboard setting ,and then save them to specific or multiple songs , and save set lists of songs for multiple types of gigs like Christmas songs , worship songs , dance and celebration songs etc including the optimum eq settings for the venues / rooms I perform in even down to the different amps I might be using to put my sound through .

After an hour he finally said I just don’t think arrangers have good enough build quality for regular gigging as they are often made from plastic . I told him that my korg was made from the same material as the Kronos which he accepted was gig suitable . I also reminded him that the Yamaha modx is made from plastic .

It became apparent to him ( no surprises ) that he had pre Pre conceived ideas about arranger keyboards that blinkered his view about their suitability but when pushed , it was about how he felt he might be perceived by other musicians that was the real objection , who pretty much had the same ignorance of arranger keyboards he had .

It had nothing to do with his musical needs at all .

Nobody on this forum who believes arrangers are not suitable for professional use has to respond directly to my points . I am not trying to bully anyone or sell my view above anyone else , but it would be nice if just once folkes who actually Disagree ,engaged in the specifics so we can all learn something new rather than just remain embedded in what is often an ignorant ( in the precise meaning of the word ) position .