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#469147 - 04/25/19 03:19 PM
Why piano?
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
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Bachus 'new toy' and his primary (musical) reason for purchasing it, got me to wondering; why do we place so much emphasis on the quality of the 'piano' sound when buying (or evaluating) a new keyboard. Most of us are not (primarily) pianist and few of us do arrangements that feature solo piano or piano solos within an arrangement. The fact is, most of the mid and TOTL arrangers AND workstations have piano voices that are more than adequate for most of our mixes. In fact, some of the 'factory' piano voices may even be better suited to the other voices in the mix than some of the very expensive SUPER-DUPER software samples that require powerful computers with loads of memory. The same with the even more expensive dedicated 'stage pianos', although I can see the justification for a stage piano (but only if you're a pianist, NOT just for providing a superior piano voice for your regular arrangements).
I am not a pianist by any stretch of the imagination but I have found that the pianos in my Tyros II, Fantom G7, BK7m, or even my latest toy, the very inexpensive Numa Compact 2x, are more than up to the task if the performance is us to snuff. What's more important to me is the feel of the keybed and in that regard, the Fantom is lightyears ahead of the others. Some people like the new offering for the SEVEN (a free upgrade) but I'm not a huge fan, probably because I don't like that keybed for AP (although it's perfect for 'Rhodes'.
Your thoughts on why the quality of the piano voice is so important to you even though you're not a pianist.
chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]
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#469154 - 04/25/19 05:31 PM
Re: Why piano?
[Re: cgiles]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15560
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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Not a piano guy, but many of my audience members know how a good piano sounds. There is always someone in the lobbies that is a resident that is a piano player and wailing away at the Yamaha or Steinway grand. And, more often than not, there is a group of folks standing around the piano singing (howling).  A few years ago, there was a guy with a cheap Casio that relied heavily on the piano voice - which was just awful. It didn't take long for the resident council to tell the AD not to bring him back. He was a very talented player, but the sounds coming out of the amp were not on par with today's TOTL and mid range arranger keyboards. Now, DonM relies heavily on his guitar sounds/voices, but he too uses the piano for a lot of his on stage productions. I have heard him play using both guitars and pianos and he really does a fantastic job with both. I'm fairly confident that he would have problem with any keyboard that didn't have great piano sounds. Many years ago, when I was experiencing phase cancellation using Yamaha's Grand Piano that was heavily, stereo-sampled, I spent the better part of three months creating a mono grand piano based on a midi grand piano. It took a lot of time to get it to sound great, but I finally managed to get what I considered an acceptable, end product. I posted the piano voice on line and it has been downloaded more than 1,000 times since I posted it. Many users tell me it is their go-to piano voice, which is quite flattering, at least to me. All the best, Gary 
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)
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#469158 - 04/25/19 08:47 PM
Re: Why piano?
[Re: cgiles]
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Senior Member
Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
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Bachus 'new toy' and his primary (musical) reason for purchasing it, got me to wondering; why do we place so much emphasis on the quality of the 'piano' sound when buying (or evaluating) a new keyboard. Most of us are not (primarily) pianist and few of us do arrangements that feature solo piano or piano solos within an arrangement. The fact is, most of the mid and TOTL arrangers AND workstations have piano voices that are more than adequate for most of our mixes. In fact, some of the 'factory' piano voices may even be better suited to the other voices in the mix than some of the very expensive SUPER-DUPER software samples that require powerful computers with loads of memory. The same with the even more expensive dedicated 'stage pianos', although I can see the justification for a stage piano (but only if you're a pianist, NOT just for providing a superior piano voice for your regular arrangements).
I am not a pianist by any stretch of the imagination but I have found that the pianos in my Tyros II, Fantom G7, BK7m, or even my latest toy, the very inexpensive Numa Compact 2x, are more than up to the task if the performance is us to snuff. What's more important to me is the feel of the keybed and in that regard, the Fantom is lightyears ahead of the others. Some people like the new offering for the SEVEN (a free upgrade) but I'm not a huge fan, probably because I don't like that keybed for AP (although it's perfect for 'Rhodes'.
Your thoughts on why the quality of the piano voice is so important to you even though you're not a pianist.
chas I always judge a keyboard by the acoustic piano sound.. I want it to be dynamic and playable.. I believe if the manufacture takes care in the piano sound, you can bet they also take care in the development of other sounds.. Bad piano, I pass over the brand.
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#469195 - 04/26/19 09:18 AM
Re: Why piano?
[Re: cgiles]
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Senior Member
Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
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Bachus 'new toy' and his primary (musical) reason for purchasing it, got me to wondering; why do we place so much emphasis on the quality of the 'piano' sound when buying (or evaluating) a new keyboard. Most of us are not (primarily) pianist and few of us do arrangements that feature solo piano or piano solos within an arrangement. The fact is, most of the mid and TOTL arrangers AND workstations have piano voices that are more than adequate for most of our mixes. In fact, some of the 'factory' piano voices may even be better suited to the other voices in the mix than some of the very expensive SUPER-DUPER software samples that require powerful computers with loads of memory. The same with the even more expensive dedicated 'stage pianos', although I can see the justification for a stage piano (but only if you're a pianist, NOT just for providing a superior piano voice for your regular arrangements).
I am not a pianist by any stretch of the imagination but I have found that the pianos in my Tyros II, Fantom G7, BK7m, or even my latest toy, the very inexpensive Numa Compact 2x, are more than up to the task if the performance is us to snuff. What's more important to me is the feel of the keybed and in that regard, the Fantom is lightyears ahead of the others. Some people like the new offering for the SEVEN (a free upgrade) but I'm not a huge fan, probably because I don't like that keybed for AP (although it's perfect for 'Rhodes'.
Your thoughts on why the quality of the piano voice is so important to you even though you're not a pianist.
chas In my case, i am mostly playing piano voices... about 70% of my time behind the keyboards. Half the time its layered with another sound.. but allways prominent .. Often with a backing of only drums or drums, base, guitar.. Its only logical to me that for the sound you use most, you have the best options available.. And while i really like the piano sounds of the modx8 (CFX and Bösendorfer), like them more then the Kronos piano’s. I prefer the Steinway and the Fazzioli grandpiano sounds (not just the samples, but the real thing to) But again, as stated in the other topic, are they a need or a want? Could i live witouth them? Offcourse i could. And yes, i also have a fair collection of software piano’s.. but i am in a phase where i want to keep the macbook as far away as possible from my setup... so this choice seemed only logical to me.. its better to have a few extra sounds you keep on using, instead of a few 100 (yammex/integra) ... for solo piano, the difference between the brands of grands is deffinately there
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#469200 - 04/26/19 10:10 AM
Re: Why piano?
[Re: cgiles]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
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Bachus, this post was not aimed at you....or Steve, or Russ, or Sam CA, or any of the KNOWN pianists in the group; we KNOW why you guys want a great piano/(s); for the same reason these durn guitar players (sorry Russ, Nigel, Eric, John C.) HAVE TO HAVE 8 gazillion guitars; it's their PRIMARY instrument and they want as many options as possible. Although we welcome your replies, this was mainly aimed at those keyboardist for whom piano is NOT their primary instrument. I believe Fran's answer came closest to the truth; we hold the piano up as the 'gold standard' and assume that the quality of the PIANO voice will probably reflect the quality of the other voices in the instrument. In any case, very interesting responses and another opportunity to peek into the mind of that mysterious creature, the keyboard player (and his sub-species, the arranger player  ). chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]
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#469201 - 04/26/19 10:28 AM
Re: Why piano?
[Re: cgiles]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
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Bachus, this post was not aimed at you....or Steve, or Russ, or Sam CA, or any of the KNOWN pianists in the group; we KNOW why you guys want a great piano/(s); for the same reason these durn guitar players (sorry Russ, Nigel, Eric, John C.) HAVE TO HAVE 8 gazillion guitars; it's their PRIMARY instrument and they want as many options as possible. Although we welcome your replies, this was mainly aimed at those keyboardist for whom piano is NOT their primary instrument. I believe Fran's answer came closest to the truth; we hold the piano up as the 'gold standard' and assume that the quality of the PIANO voice will probably reflect the quality of the other voices in the instrument. In any case, very interesting responses and another opportunity to peek into the mind of that mysterious creature, the keyboard player (and his sub-species, the arranger player ). chas Either your a piano player or a arranger kb player... No matter how good the piano is in an arranger kb, module or whatever if you play it in a MIX of other instruments like a style, sequence etc...you will most definitely lose the true nuances of the piano. IMO Piano should be play as such, a solo acoustic instrument so the player can express all their talents when doing so which is beautiful when done properly...and the Piano is then showcased as it should be. But MIX the piano sound with the band, style, etc,.... it's just another sound within the MIX and no one can really hear it's attributes vs a solo piano. JMO
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#469205 - 04/26/19 12:00 PM
Re: Why piano?
[Re: cgiles]
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Member
Registered: 11/11/04
Posts: 699
Loc: Russia
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As a matter of fact, I have an idea that piano is a kind of instrument that can be easily overused. Like other instruments, piano has its own beautiful voice. But unlike other instruments, it is much more advanced in terms of its range and ease of playing. As a result, it provokes to compose and perform types of music which, let’s say, are hard to get.
I was able to really appreciate the piano only when I came across records of Richard Clayderman. We can say that it’s “poppy”, but I believe that if music touches you emotionally, then the job is done.
Also, as one producer I know says, if you want your mix to sound cool when it’s done, then take a really good care of an each sound in the first place. If initial materials are weak, nothing will make it to sound strong on the output.
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#469208 - 04/26/19 01:42 PM
Re: Why piano?
[Re: cgiles]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15560
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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" affectianato" I didn't run across any of them in the places I performed. Ferrante & Teicher, Libberache, Cole Porter, etc... were not residents or customers in the places where I played. Gary
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)
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#469209 - 04/26/19 01:46 PM
Re: Why piano?
[Re: cgiles]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15560
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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Paul and other Yamaha arranger keyboard players. Attached is the piano voice file I created nearly a decade ago. It will work on ALL Yamaha arranger keyboards manufactured after the PSR-2000. There are also some other neat voices I created in the file as well, sax, guitar, etc... You can download the files from HERE Have fun, Gary
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)
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#469212 - 04/26/19 01:57 PM
Re: Why piano?
[Re: cgiles]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15560
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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Yes, there were several voices that produced fairly strong phase cancellation, all were heavily stereo sampled. The voices I posted are all MONO voices, thus solving the problems of phase cancellation, while still providing some neat effects and depth quality.
Gary
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)
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#469234 - 04/27/19 03:56 PM
Re: Why piano?
[Re: cgiles]
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Member
Registered: 03/22/17
Posts: 449
Loc: Mountain Home, AR
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Piano is just one more of the voices on the arranger. I tend to be more impressed with guitar sounds and good horn sounds. Also of great importance to me is ability to switch between sounds on the fly.
_________________________
PSR 740,PSR 3000, Mirage, tx7, mp32, Pro Tools 10,11 SONAR, Reaper, BIAB 2020 and a pile of Computer Music mags w/disks
College student was working on Doctoral, Education Now just doing courses to do courses
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