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#463646 - 12/22/18 01:14 PM Re: Sd90 questions [Re: IMMusic_Curt]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By IMMusic_Curt
Couple more comments - First, I don't agree with the term "GM" voices. To me, I instantly think of GM as in General MIDI. Not the case in the world of Ketron. This isn't what you are looking for I only share it in the event you haven't see it. It shows more about editing a voice on SDxx. https://youtu.be/be5xI9G_ugc

From your comments, it sounds as though you would like to go one step below what is offered and change the components that make up what Ketron calls a GM Voice. I'm wondering how much is terminology in the disctussion?

I'm making up this example and didn't really look at the SD90 when I typed this. If you take a Ketron GM voice that is made up of let's say two sounds(voices). Let's say Jazz Organ. On the main screen, that is all you see. However, if you go into edit mode you see that that sound is composed of two other sounds let's just say it's organ1 and organ2. Now, you can change a number of things regarding both of those sounds and how they interact to make up the Jazz Organ sound (GM Voice). How different is that from looking at an edit screen and instead of combining organ1 and organ2 the screen is labeled Part A, Part B, or some other description allowing you to mix those elements together to create a new sound or modify an existing sound?

As you can probably tell - We don't do much voice editing other than something as simple as change reverb level, perhaps a little detuning or chorus effects. With hundreds and hundreds of sounds at our fingertips just don't find a need to change them all that much. But I do know some folks that are very deep into voice creation/editing. What do some of the other manufacturers offer in this area and what do they call the various components of a sound/voice?


There are quite a lot of things i change in voices..
- attack and release.. for obvious reasons
- filter and eq for changing soundcharacteristics.
- lfo’s for adding vibration and things like wha
- modulation, reverb, delay and dsp.. altough these are effects, and more like added to the sound..

And much much more...
All these things are available in the edit section for the right hand sounds..
Sadly not for the midi file and style voices...

For me its more important to be able to edit these basic voices then it is to add my own samples...but i have high hopes that the sample option also adds this much needed option to create basic user voices..

Another thing i noticed that there are only 12*12=144 GM voices available for styles.. even tough there seem to be 4 banks of 128 GM voices in the SD instruments... so many of them are not available in styles and midi files..
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#463670 - 12/23/18 03:54 AM Re: Sd90 questions [Re: Bachus]
IMMusic_Curt Offline
Member

Registered: 06/17/18
Posts: 314
Loc: New Symrna Beach, Fl.
I went back to the thought that we both agreed on which was to not modify a factory voice. Tried a quick test to see what would happen:

I made a simple change to one of the factory voices and rather than save it as a user voice I overwrote the factory voice. Next I tested the "button" labeled restore factory voice, and it did work so you can "get back" to the original voice should you decide to change one. Here's what I didn't expect - Even though I modified and overwrote the original voice when I went to a style and selected that voice the style still plays the original factory sound - not the modified factory sound that I "overwrote."

In summary what you said appears to be true - You can modify a voice and either overwrite it or save it as a user voice. You can select and use that "new" voice as a right-hand voice - What you can't do is use that voice in a style, even though you assign it from the factory sound location. Hmm...
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Curt
https://immusic.co
MIDI, Music and Keyboard Fun!

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#463680 - 12/23/18 08:29 AM Re: Sd90 questions [Re: IMMusic_Curt]
Dusan Offline
Member

Registered: 05/04/09
Posts: 559
Loc: Slovenija
Simpy save revoiced style like User Style and change a name of Style.Shuld work.

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#463698 - 12/23/18 01:34 PM Re: Sd90 questions [Re: Dusan]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By Dusan
Simpy save revoiced style like User Style and change a name of Style.Shuld work.


No, it will not...

We are not talking about changing voices to other voices
But about editing the voices in the style..

Which is a neccesarity to make styles coverted from other brands work..
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#463705 - 12/23/18 05:00 PM Re: Sd90 questions [Re: Bachus]
hammer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2397
Loc: Texas
Gentlemen,
There is one other extremely important issue with the Ketron OS when creating and saving USER VOICES. This issue has to do with how the Ketron OS finds voices for selected styles. The voices are NOT saved within the style. Instead the OS looks for the position the voice holds in its folder. Example: Say you are creating a style that will be in the USER SWING folder. If that folder contains 10 voices your newly created voice MUST be put in the 11th position in order not to mess up voicing of other styles using voices from this folder. The work-a-around for this problems is to number EVERY voice in every USER VOICE folder and simply add any newly created USER VOICES to the end of your folder as you create them. This problem existed on my Ketron SD7 keyboards, my SD90 when I had it, and my new SD40. AJ knows about this issues and so does Italy but they have not seen fit to have the voices saved within a style in their OS yet. I hope this info is helpful.

Deane

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#463718 - 12/24/18 03:27 AM Re: Sd90 questions [Re: hammer]
IMMusic_Curt Offline
Member

Registered: 06/17/18
Posts: 314
Loc: New Symrna Beach, Fl.
I am aware of the voice numbering and the way that works (not a fan). What I didn't see was a way to assign a user voice to a style. Now, I didn't try it from a user style, only a factory style. I'll take another look at that, and I also have one other idea that I was going to try this morning. More coming later this morning.
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Curt
https://immusic.co
MIDI, Music and Keyboard Fun!

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#463731 - 12/24/18 07:44 AM Re: Sd90 questions [Re: Bachus]
hammer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2397
Loc: Texas
Curt,
With both the SD90 and the SD40 I was able to add a USER VOICE to a style. That said, I then must save that style as a USER STYLE and rename it.


Deane

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#463744 - 12/24/18 11:38 AM Re: Sd90 questions [Re: Bachus]
IMMusic_Curt Offline
Member

Registered: 06/17/18
Posts: 314
Loc: New Symrna Beach, Fl.
Darn - I just don't see a way to do that! I've been messing around for that past hour, and I can clearly change to any factory sound that I want, but nothing gives me the option to select from the user sound bank (so far).

Sad to admit but this must be the moment of RTM (Read The Manual)! What fun is that? I'd much rather explore, push buttons and learn as I go. (Even if I pull out some of my hair in the process)!

It's been quite a while since we did a Ketron video. Once (if) I get this figured out it might warrant filming something to share with others. Am I the only one struggling with this simple concept?


Edited by IMMusic_Curt (12/24/18 05:06 PM)
_________________________
Curt
https://immusic.co
MIDI, Music and Keyboard Fun!

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#463757 - 12/24/18 10:50 PM Re: Sd90 questions [Re: Bachus]
Ketron_AJ Offline
Moderator

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3583
Loc: Middletown, DE
Folks,

You cannot use a User voice within a style or midifile ... and here is why.

Due to the design implementation of USER VOICES, you can have up to 3 individual voices/tracks which make up 1 USER VOICE. With the right hand/lead voice, you simply play and even though you 'see' this as a voice, it is actually 3 voices which are being played on 3 Midi tracks. Now the Arranger/Style has a maximum of 10 tracks it can use out of 16 and the Midifile engine has a maximum of 16 tracks.... if you edit a voice which uses 3 individual voices (let's say), then you will run out of tracks in either case when you want to use a bunch of USER VOICES within either a style or midifile.
Just imagine you have 3 USER VOICES you want to use for Chord 1, Chord 2 and Chord 3 ... (that is already 3 X 3 = 9 tracks in voices ALONE ...) but the ARRAGNER has a max of 10 tracks... what/where do the other tracks go (Drums (2 tracks), Bass ... etc)? This is th problem which stems from the way we route the signal on KETRON products. To change it would require a hardware modification.

Hope this explains it better.

Thanks, and Merry Christmas to you all!

AJ
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[KETRON - USA]
Design Engineer & Product Specialist.
www.KetronAmerica.com

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#463771 - 12/25/18 01:43 PM Re: Sd90 questions [Re: Ketron_AJ]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By Ketron_AJ
Folks,

You cannot use a User voice within a style or midifile ... and here is why.

Due to the design implementation of USER VOICES, you can have up to 3 individual voices/tracks which make up 1 USER VOICE. With the right hand/lead voice, you simply play and even though you 'see' this as a voice, it is actually 3 voices which are being played on 3 Midi tracks. Now the Arranger/Style has a maximum of 10 tracks it can use out of 16 and the Midifile engine has a maximum of 16 tracks.... if you edit a voice which uses 3 individual voices (let's say), then you will run out of tracks in either case when you want to use a bunch of USER VOICES within either a style or midifile.
Just imagine you have 3 USER VOICES you want to use for Chord 1, Chord 2 and Chord 3 ... (that is already 3 X 3 = 9 tracks in voices ALONE ...) but the ARRAGNER has a max of 10 tracks... what/where do the other tracks go (Drums (2 tracks), Bass ... etc)? This is th problem which stems from the way we route the signal on KETRON products. To change it would require a hardware modification.

Hope this explains it better.

Thanks, and Merry Christmas to you all!

AJ


So much was clear to me...


But it should be possible to edit the gm voices inside the Styles?
Just dont see how?
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