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#453965 - 06/26/18 09:26 PM the bar just got lowered again
Mark79100 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/23/06
Posts: 1661
Loc: USA
Well, I promised myself never to bring up the subject again because "it ain't going to go away"....it just gets worse..but here I am back again with my usual gripe.

So I'm having a very busy day, but figured it's OK, I'll go to tonight's park concert and relax listening to good music (every summer there are hundreds of concerts around here...pick and choose, but, unfortunately, I chose the wrong one).

I knew there was something wrong when I noticed no instruments on the stage, only two Grade B Kmart self-powered speakers on posts. Then I saw the group on the side....3 men, a girl....men looked like they needed to sign up for Medicare after the show. Show starts and my suspicions were correct.....Karaoke tracks dished out on a single, solitary laptop. Total musical equipment on stage: one laptop + two speakers + three mini-monitors + four mikes, and, I guess you could throw in three pairs of shoelaces (officially on stage) to bring it up to a grand total of 13 items that you could carry to your gig in a supermarket cart.

How did it come to this? I've been seeing good bands for the last 20 years, and I mean full bands with guys who had chops (especially the Chicago Tribute Band). These guys tonight were playing to a customary audience of 500-600 people and, in addition, to mediocre sounding Karaoke discs, they couldn't even coordinate their voices. Limp patter in between songs. They should have named their group "The Sadists!"

I studied both them and the audience carefully. Singer #1 looked and walked like Rip Van Winkle. #2 dressed like he was setting up the pins for bowlers at the local bowling alley. #3 was so big I could hardly see #1 and #2. He could have passed for the Michelin Man without even a costume. Or maybe the "before" picture for some exercise emporium advertisement. I mean, really, if you're going to sing together, try and make a good visual. Then the girl.....very little singing and dressed in a "glitter" outfit...moved like she should have been teaching Zumba classes instead of singing. I actually thought she was a Xmas tree on stage until she moved.

Audience.....out of all those people I counted only 7 1/2 people dancing, and no one, NO ONE, was moving to the music in their seats. A friend who was with me, got up and left (quote) "before she ruined her hearing!"

Now here's the plus side. Thinking about the status quo, I'm sitting there wondering if this is a blessing. The audiences have been gradually "dumbed down" so much over the years, I'm wondering if it's time for a really good OMB now to enter the arena (maybe coupled with a female vocalist). I'm talking a "Jurgen Sartorius" type, good playing, excellent vocals, entertainer type, mixed bag of music, TOTL keyboard, huge bass speakers, harmonizer, and, of course, the incidentals (on the keyboard hard drive): midi files, Karaoke tracks, original recordings, etc.

If I was a young whippersnapper again, full of energy and determination and drive, I'd take up the challenge. But then again the glitch in the whole thing is, you might end up in popular demand, but your paycheck would probably be equivalent to the cost of a tuna fish sandwich. These park recreation directors who hire the groups are slaves to the "bottom line."

This should be my last "gripe" letter, because I don't think there's enough room left to lower the bar anymore!

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#453968 - 06/26/18 10:05 PM Re: the bar just got lowered again [Re: Mark79100]
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
I am doing a similar show tonight...I will have a laptop , mics, and a Marantz sound system...

I will be doing a karaoke program for a group of "special needs" stars. smile

One will be my autistic grandson (loves the Beatles) ..


For sure I will not be critical of the participants. smile
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#453970 - 06/27/18 01:14 AM Re: the bar just got lowered again [Re: Mark79100]
Bernie9 Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5508
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
I will be doing a program for a "special needs" group of adults tomorrow. Despite their problems, they are the most appreciative and enthusiastic group I entertain. One should never assume they are mentally challenged in all areas. They each have their areas of expertise, but their common thread is music and a loving disposition. It is, by far, the most rewarding group I have.
_________________________
pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact

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#453974 - 06/27/18 02:15 AM Re: the bar just got lowered again [Re: Bernie9]
bruno123 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 4912
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
"This should be my last "gripe" letter"
One of the best easons for not writing a gripe letter is what it does to me. IT KILLS MY DAY.

The world is what it is. How we handle it is what we are.
John C.

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#453980 - 06/27/18 05:48 AM Re: the bar just got lowered again [Re: bruno123]
Stephenm52 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/05
Posts: 5126
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By bruno123


The world is what it is. How we handle it is what we are.
John C.


Although at times the quote below is easier to write than practice, it’s good to remember.

And acceptance is the answer to all my problems today. When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thing, or situation—some fact of my life —unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment.

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#453984 - 06/27/18 07:38 AM Re: the bar just got lowered again [Re: Mark79100]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Originally Posted By Mark79100
Well, I promised myself never to bring up the subject again because "it ain't going to go away"....it just gets worse..but here I am back again with my usual gripe.

So I'm having a very busy day, but figured it's OK, I'll go to tonight's park concert and relax listening to good music (every summer there are hundreds of concerts around here...pick and choose, but, unfortunately, I chose the wrong one).

I knew there was something wrong when I noticed no instruments on the stage, only two Grade B Kmart self-powered speakers on posts. Then I saw the group on the side....3 men, a girl....men looked like they needed to sign up for Medicare after the show. Show starts and my suspicions were correct.....Karaoke tracks dished out on a single, solitary laptop. Total musical equipment on stage: one laptop + two speakers + three mini-monitors + four mikes, and, I guess you could throw in three pairs of shoelaces (officially on stage) to bring it up to a grand total of 13 items that you could carry to your gig in a supermarket cart.

How did it come to this? I've been seeing good bands for the last 20 years, and I mean full bands with guys who had chops (especially the Chicago Tribute Band). These guys tonight were playing to a customary audience of 500-600 people and, in addition, to mediocre sounding Karaoke discs, they couldn't even coordinate their voices. Limp patter in between songs. They should have named their group "The Sadists!"

I studied both them and the audience carefully. Singer #1 looked and walked like Rip Van Winkle. #2 dressed like he was setting up the pins for bowlers at the local bowling alley. #3 was so big I could hardly see #1 and #2. He could have passed for the Michelin Man without even a costume. Or maybe the "before" picture for some exercise emporium advertisement. I mean, really, if you're going to sing together, try and make a good visual. Then the girl.....very little singing and dressed in a "glitter" outfit...moved like she should have been teaching Zumba classes instead of singing. I actually thought she was a Xmas tree on stage until she moved.

Audience.....out of all those people I counted only 7 1/2 people dancing, and no one, NO ONE, was moving to the music in their seats. A friend who was with me, got up and left (quote) "before she ruined her hearing!"

Now here's the plus side. Thinking about the status quo, I'm sitting there wondering if this is a blessing. The audiences have been gradually "dumbed down" so much over the years, I'm wondering if it's time for a really good OMB now to enter the arena (maybe coupled with a female vocalist). I'm talking a "Jurgen Sartorius" type, good playing, excellent vocals, entertainer type, mixed bag of music, TOTL keyboard, huge bass speakers, harmonizer, and, of course, the incidentals (on the keyboard hard drive): midi files, Karaoke tracks, original recordings, etc.

If I was a young whippersnapper again, full of energy and determination and drive, I'd take up the challenge. But then again the glitch in the whole thing is, you might end up in popular demand, but your paycheck would probably be equivalent to the cost of a tuna fish sandwich. These park recreation directors who hire the groups are slaves to the "bottom line."

This should be my last "gripe" letter, because I don't think there's enough room left to lower the bar anymore!


Who are we to judge?.....they are getting paid......
it's a free night out for people on a summer night....,
and anyone is free to leave if they choose.
That said on a positive note you also learned what is going on in the changing music performance scene today and into the future. Enjoy

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#453987 - 06/27/18 08:07 AM Re: the bar just got lowered again [Re: Mark79100]
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
It's ironic that a lot of the "band" guys, who for years criticized arranger players for doing "canned music", are now showing up with their cell phones and a guitar! And, trying to undercut the prices being paid.
_________________________
DonM

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#453990 - 06/27/18 08:24 AM Re: the bar just got lowered again [Re: Mark79100]
zuki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/20/02
Posts: 4716
For sure, we are not supposed to judge. But it sure is hard when I read stories that Mark posted (tongue in cheek - humor).

Damn, bringing in a car full of $6000 worth of equipment for a handful of patrons, might be stupid. But that load only takes 15 minutes to set up. I cannot tell you how many people are marveled by the technology and the skill set that must be accomplished to satisfy and 'keep' the crowd. A performance is analyzed by how many people stay. Mark's example showed that listeners really do know, IMO.
_________________________
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Studio: Korg PA4X/Yamaha DGX670/Yamaha PSR SX900/Boss BR900CD/Tascam DP24SD/MTM Iloud/Senn 935/K&M stand/Shure SM57/Sony C80 (2)/Blue Encore 300

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#453995 - 06/27/18 09:13 AM Re: the bar just got lowered again [Re: Mark79100]
Mark79100 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/23/06
Posts: 1661
Loc: USA
I DO believe in "Live and let live." I also believe the following: you can do anything you want with your life (assuming it's lawful), but NOT if it affects other people!!!!!"

Point being: I have no problem accepting "what is, is" for MYSELF. It's society in general that is being affected......so slowly they don't even realize what's happening. That's my concern.

You've got to remember I've been playing for 50 years now to 50 years of audiences. Simple as this......I remember the days when live music made people HAPPY....genuinely happy. Today, it's not a stimulus for "happiness"....it's nothing more than a distraction and training grounds for learning tolerance. And.....something to do at night (because there's very little to do nowadays socially..relative to years ago).

Real, authentic food took that path already (remember Mother's home-made apple pie?). Movies took that path (remember Singin' in the Rain, etc?). Television took that path (remember Father Knows Best type shows?). Music was the only holdout, and now that's going the way of the aforementioned! What's left to make people feel good in a world as chaotic as it is today?

What really bugged me last night (contrary to what Donny wrote above) was NOT that the act was bad, but it was the degradation of and lack of respect for the people who took the time out of their busy lives to attend something they assumed was worth seeing. These fellows belonged NOT on stage playing to 500 people but in someone's cellar enjoying a beer and a pizza and watching Youtube videos on how to play music and entertain!

I'm sure most of you feel the same way as me. We play for humanitarian (correct word?) reasons to bring joy to people. It's NOT about glorifying yourself in front of an audience as SuperMusician. It's about affecting people in a positive way with your music. People need that and deserve that. They DON'T deserve what they got last night.....a bare-bones, amateur musical performance.



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#453999 - 06/27/18 09:30 AM Re: the bar just got lowered again [Re: Dnj]
Mark79100 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/23/06
Posts: 1661
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By Dnj
Who are we to judge?.....they are getting paid......


So does that mean, as long as you're getting paid, my plumber, my mechanic, and my income tax accountant can perform too?

Originally Posted By Dnj
it's a free night out for people on a summer night....


so was the Jim Jones clan a "free night out for people" and where did that lead to? (Google Jim Jones)

Originally Posted By Dnj
and anyone is free to leave if they choose


No, I watched everyone closely. People chose to get up and take short walks, have conversations with each other, amuse themselves on their smart phones, etc. In short, it's a beautiful summer night, great weather....you're out already...make the best of it.

Donny.....I appreciate your posts but sometimes I wonder: do you actually get the point the "poster" is making? Do you really think things through before you comment or do you just have "post-itis" (obsession to post)?

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#454000 - 06/27/18 09:33 AM Re: the bar just got lowered again [Re: Mark79100]
tony mads usa Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 14376
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
A number of years ago, some other musician friends and I went to a jazz club in Boston to see the group Spyro Gyra ... the band was dressed in jeans or khaki slacks and tee shirts or golf style shirts ... one of the guys I was with commented "remember when the musicians dressed better than the audience?" ...
A couple of years ago I saw the Ron Carter trio at the Newport Jazz Fest - blue blazers, dark slacks, white shirts, dark ties - class is class ...
_________________________
t. cool

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#454001 - 06/27/18 09:34 AM Re: the bar just got lowered again [Re: Stephenm52]
Mark79100 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/23/06
Posts: 1661
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By Stephenm52
Originally Posted By bruno123


The world is what it is. How we handle it is what we are.
John C.


And acceptance is the answer to all my problems today. When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thing, or situation—some fact of my life —unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment.



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#454006 - 06/27/18 10:16 AM Re: the bar just got lowered again [Re: Mark79100]
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 12800
Loc: Penn Yan, NY
Originally Posted By Mark79100
The audiences have been gradually "dumbed down" so much over the years, I'm wondering if it's time for a really good OMB now to enter the arena (maybe coupled with a female vocalist)


It sounds like those performers would have left you wanting more, even if they had a terrific backing band. The performance is what failed you, and not their choice of media. There are many fine singers who entertain with tracks, and if the show is well executed, and performed with humility, and style ... the crowd will love it. I don't think the set-up lowered the bar for you ... it was the lackluster performance of the entertainers. The same thing could happen with a sub par OMB ... even with great gear. Using an arranger is not a step "up" from using tracks. It's a creative choice, and the right performer can captivate an audience with almost anything. The tools are just a means to an end.
_________________________
No longer monitoring this forum. Please visit www.daveboydmusic.com for contact info

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#454021 - 06/27/18 12:03 PM Re: the bar just got lowered again [Re: Mark79100]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Originally Posted By Mark79100

What really bugged me last night (contrary to what Donny wrote above) was NOT that the act was bad, but it was the degradation of and lack of respect for the people who took the time out of their busy lives to attend something they assumed was worth seeing. These fellows belonged NOT on stage playing to 500 people but in someone's cellar enjoying a beer and a pizza and watching Youtube videos on how to play music and entertain!


And who's fault is that? ...the people that hired them correct?..
Aside from judging them again,....ever think just maybe some people enjoyed the act? My point is absorb from good or bad always as a player, and playing 30,40,50 years etc, doesn't mean anything I Know many players who perform longer then that and still have alot to be desired,.....length of time means nothing.

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#454023 - 06/27/18 12:09 PM Re: the bar just got lowered again [Re: Mark79100]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Originally Posted By Mark79100
Originally Posted By Dnj
Who are we to judge?.....they are getting paid......


So does that mean, as long as you're getting paid, my plumber, my mechanic, and my income tax accountant can perform too?

Originally Posted By Dnj
it's a free night out for people on a summer night....


so was the Jim Jones clan a "free night out for people" and where did that lead to? (Google Jim Jones)

Originally Posted By Dnj
and anyone is free to leave if they choose


No, I watched everyone closely. People chose to get up and take short walks, have conversations with each other, amuse themselves on their smart phones, etc. In short, it's a beautiful summer night, great weather....you're out already...make the best of it.

Donny.....I appreciate your posts but sometimes I wonder: do you actually get the point the "poster" is making? Do you really think things through before you comment or do you just have "post-itis" (obsession to post)?


Believe me I get it,......what I don't get is your complaining and so call anger toward musicians performing however they are trying to do it, you post YOUR opinions don't be surprised to receive other peoples feed back who Don't agree sorry,.....show some helpful support or better yet I would of went up to them during a break or at the end of the show and talked with them as a fellow musician and offered my thoughts good or bad, many times it's very appreciative.....and btw I've been playing over 50yrs myself..

have a nice day if you can


Edited by Dnj (06/27/18 12:16 PM)

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#454098 - 06/28/18 10:52 PM Re: the bar just got lowered again [Re: Dnj]
Mark79100 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/23/06
Posts: 1661
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By Dnj

Mark writes: Donny.....I appreciate your posts but sometimes I wonder: do you actually get the point the "poster" is making? Do you really think things through before you comment or do you just have "post-itis" (obsession to post)?


Originally Posted By Dnj
Believe me I get it,......


No, Donny...I don't believe you 'cause you DON'T get it. Read the heading of my message, then read it again, and again until you DO get it...my heading was "the bar just got lowered again.” That means I’m noticing musicians are showing up with less and less equipment regularly and that this might not end until they show up on stage with a tin can and a spoon as backing and both Sam Ash and Guitar Center go out of business. I could have said it all in the first three paragraphs. I just thought I’d throw in some additional tongue-in-cheek patter as someone already noted.

Originally Posted By Dnj
what I don't get is your complaining and so call anger toward musicians performing however they are trying to do it,


Hmmmmmmm Let’s use an analogy. Donnie pays $200 for a ticket to see a first class Broadway musical. Goes through the time and trouble of getting into NYC, pays $50 to park his car, walks in and sits down saying to himself “it was all worth it, the next two hours are going to be magnificent.” In walks the performers…they’re all convicts from the Pentonville State Prison choral group who are doing the show because it meant temporary parole for them. In walks the band…..they’re a harmonica player and a drummer whose only equipment is a pair of drumsticks that he uses on a kitchen scrub-board. Would that make YOU angry?

And, really Donny, quite frankly I don’t care if you see me as angry. Do I need to remind you this platform is presented as a public forum and I was graciously given the right to post anything I want within Nigel’s parameters?

Originally Posted By Dnj
show some helpful support or better yet I would of went up to them during a break or at the end of the show and talked with them as a fellow musician and offered my thoughts good or bad, many times it's very appreciative


Have you ever given advice to a musician or anyone even who took it without getting insulted? Most are so fragile they can’t take any kind of critique unless it’s positive BS.

I never forgot this, I had a close OMB friend back in the 80’s. Never met him but we spoke regularly on the phone 2-3x a week about the music business, getting gigs, equipment, etc. One day I went out to watch his show. Good performance, very good vocalist, very good guitarist, very professional. But he was using a 10 year old rhythm box. When I asked him why the next day, he got insulted and from that day on he was very cold to me. Never could figure that one out but never forgot it.

Originally Posted By Dnj
.
....and btw I've been playing over 50 yrs myself..


Donnie, this is a low blow, but I couldn’t resist.....it doesn’t show! But......I DID like your version of We'll Meet Again....very well done, very well orchestrated, very good arrangement (if it was yours).

Originally Posted By Dnj
have a nice day if you can

Yes, I can, now that I finished writing this.

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