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#450328 - 04/13/18 02:29 AM SPOILED FOR CHOICE............. REFLECTIONS.......
john smies Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/05/00
Posts: 1384
Loc: koudekerke, Holland.

We certainly have come a long way as regards arranger keyboards but also as regards the way things are being discussed here on the SZ forum. I vividly recall the days, fortunately in another decade when there were acid exchanges of views as to which brand was the better one or as to whether Tom's keybaord was better than Dick's keyboard so to speak. As I said we have come a long way and seem to be rather spoiled for choice , even if that choice is basically limited to less than 10 keyboards. All three topkeyboards Genos,Korg PA4X and Ketron SD9 offer tremendous quality be it at a price and in fact the same can be said for their middle-of-the-range counterparts, the PSR975, the Korg PA1000 and the Ketron SD7. Odd man out would be the (extremely cheap) Roland EA-7. And of course there is the gamut of cheaper boards such as the lower range PSRs and PA 300/600/700......

Having to make a choice among these the operative words are :
Money, Taste, Gigging and Vocalist.

If money is no issue whatsoever I guess anyone would simply buy all three topmodels or at least two of those. Depending on taste solely one may opt for any of those three or combine a toprange arranger from one brand with a motr arranger from another make.

As it seems to me that most musicians will have to make choices or sacrifices the factors Gigging and Vocalist kick in.

If you are a gigging artist your needs will/might slightly differ from folks like me who only play at home. PA's are to be considered ( another hefty investment) and built in speakers and amplifications become less relevant. Also regards software there are options to be observed. It has been countlessly mentioned how Yamaha players can fall back on an almost unlimited source of thousands of styles, most of them song related. to the gigging artis this may turn out to be a deciding factor. After all the audiences expect to be entertained and often want to recognise the song being performed, being close to the original.

The fact whether you are a singer or not contributes significantly to the choice or arranger keybaord imho. As someone pointed out very recently , being a singer you do not need a lot of fancy sound stuff but excellent basics, that is :
drums and bass ,guitars, piano and for your right hand sounds:
piano,guitars, brass, sax, and a few more. And it should sound as close to a real band as possible, hence one's predilection ( until recently) for either Korg or Ketron. Of course the introcution of the Genos has widened the playing field....
For those who do not sing or prefer instrumentals a wider gamut of (fantasy) sounds is often desirable hence no doubt that many (home) players, at least here in Holland, would go for the Tyros series, rather than Korg or Ketron.

But in a nutshell, I think we are spoiled for choice and that basically all that is currently on offer is absolutely stunning each in his or her own way.

Happy playing,

regards,
John

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#450331 - 04/13/18 04:19 AM Re: SPOILED FOR CHOICE............. REFLECTIONS....... [Re: john smies]
Bernie9 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5507
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
John,
One could say spoiled in one sense, but confusion in another. You are right that it is nice to have choices, but to weed out the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, entails a whole lot of investigating and decision making. However, when all is said and done, the old days may have been simpler, but not near as much fun.
_________________________
pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact

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#450366 - 04/13/18 10:33 AM Re: SPOILED FOR CHOICE............. REFLECTIONS....... [Re: Bernie9]
john smies Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/05/00
Posts: 1384
Loc: koudekerke, Holland.

Bernie,

thanks for this short reflection. Seems folks are more interested in what's next though !!!! smile smile

regards,
John

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#450370 - 04/13/18 11:58 AM Re: SPOILED FOR CHOICE............. REFLECTIONS....... [Re: john smies]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By john smies

Bernie,

thanks for this short reflection. Seems folks are more interested in what's next though !!!! smile smile

regards,
John


Or whats not available...
Like an 88 key top of the line arranger workstation...

And yes, i do agree we are spoiled by choice...
So much goodness available on the market today...
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Roland Jupiter 80, Ipad pro.

http://keyszone.boards.net

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#450372 - 04/13/18 12:11 PM Re: SPOILED FOR CHOICE............. REFLECTIONS....... [Re: john smies]
Kabinopus Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/04
Posts: 698
Loc: Russia
As my resources are quite limited, I’m rather dissatisfied with the choice I have. I just see that Yamaha has such a keyboard as PSR-EW410, with 76 keys, quite lightweight and affordable, and it takes only giving it a decent polyphony and few more decent piano and epiano voices (which Yamaha has) to make it suitable for professional usage, but Yamaha protects their sales of more (much more) expensive equipment.

You can say that it’s not a perfect world, but in areas where competition is much harder, the world seems more perfect – computers, phones, cameras – you can buy them on your pocket money now, but keyboards, even used ones, seem to be as expensive as they’ve always been.

I'd say, when it comes to keyboards, we have Apple, but we still don't have Android.


Edited by Kabinopus (04/13/18 12:13 PM)

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#450429 - 04/15/18 12:46 AM Re: SPOILED FOR CHOICE............. REFLECTIONS....... [Re: Kabinopus]
Nigel Offline
Admin

Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6482
Loc: Ventura CA USA
Originally Posted By Kabinopus

I'd say, when it comes to keyboards, we have Apple, but we still don't have Android.


It comes down to numbers sold that determine the price point. The number of keyboards sold doesn't even come close to the billions of phones that are sold.

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#450430 - 04/15/18 01:05 AM Re: SPOILED FOR CHOICE............. REFLECTIONS....... [Re: Nigel]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By Nigel
Originally Posted By Kabinopus

I'd say, when it comes to keyboards, we have Apple, but we still don't have Android.


It comes down to numbers sold that determine the price point. The number of keyboards sold doesn't even come close to the billions of phones that are sold.


I think he meant to say...

We don’t have the perfect can do all and everything instrument yet...
Thats not a thing of salesnumbers, but a thing of design choices...
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Roland Jupiter 80, Ipad pro.

http://keyszone.boards.net

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#450431 - 04/15/18 01:17 AM Re: SPOILED FOR CHOICE............. REFLECTIONS....... [Re: Bachus]
john smies Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/05/00
Posts: 1384
Loc: koudekerke, Holland.
[/quote]

I think he meant to say...

We don’t have the perfect can do all and everything instrument yet...
Thats not a thing of salesnumbers, but a thing of design choices... [/quote]


That is only relative. In a nutshell: If you were to include all outstanding aspects of the Genos, The PA4X and the SD9 you would have a keyboard with little left to be desired imho....

regards
John

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#450435 - 04/15/18 03:18 AM Re: SPOILED FOR CHOICE............. REFLECTIONS....... [Re: john smies]
bruno123 Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 4912
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
B y John:
"That is only relative. In a nutshell: If you were to include all outstanding aspects of the Genos, The PA4X and the SD9 you would have a keyboard with little left to be desired:

And then we would lose the excitement we all so much enjoy. The search for the perfect keyboard is very much like the search for the perfect wave -- it was never the wave or keyboard that brought the most excitement, it was the search.

IMHO, John C.
PS, John I enjoy you posts.

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#450439 - 04/15/18 04:59 AM Re: SPOILED FOR CHOICE............. REFLECTIONS....... [Re: john smies]
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Just my opinion but, as long as we look to technology to fulfill our musical dreams and ambitions, they will continue to go unfulfilled. For me, a beautiful chord or chord progression is far more inspiring than any sound (or style) an instrument can produce. Seems to me that the things we seem to value most in these new technology-laden instruments are the features that most relieve us of the chore of actually creating and playing music. We've allowed ourselves to believe that choosing a 'style' that 'almost' fits a song is better than developing the playing skills to play it 'any damn way we choose'. No matter how much you tell yourself otherwise, you're looking for an easy way to accomplish things you are unwilling to put the time and effort into to accomplish otherwise. It is the ROOT reason why arranger keyboards are either unknown to or held in low esteem by some of the very professional musicians we admire the most.

Think how often the term 'bored' comes up when contemplating buying a new arranger keyboard. A lot of us buy cars and other gadgets for the same 'new car smell' reason. But music is different; it is an art form, something that is spiritual, emotional, that touches the soul. IMO, it's unlikely that TECHNOLOGY (alone) will ever satisfy that emotional need. JMO though, only valid for me.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#450444 - 04/15/18 05:35 AM Re: SPOILED FOR CHOICE............. REFLECTIONS....... [Re: cgiles]
john smies Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/05/00
Posts: 1384
Loc: koudekerke, Holland.
Originally Posted By cgiles

Think how often the term 'bored' comes up when contemplating buying a new arranger keyboard. A lot of us buy cars and other gadgets for the same 'new car smell' reason. But music is different; it is an art form, something that is spiritual, emotional, that touches the soul. IMO, it's unlikely that TECHNOLOGY (alone) will ever satisfy that emotional need. JMO though, only valid for me.

chas


clap clap clap

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#450446 - 04/15/18 07:38 AM Re: SPOILED FOR CHOICE............. REFLECTIONS....... [Re: john smies]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15556
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
I've thoroughly enjoyed every keyboard I've owned - every single one of them. What technology provided for me was incredibly realistic instrument sounds, for which in turn, provided me with the inspiration to learn more and play better. Not only did I want to learn more songs and chord structures, but I also wanted to explore every aspect of the keyboard's features. More often than not I would spend 3 to 6 months with each new keyboard before putting it in use on stage. That to me was what technology provided.

All the best,

Gary cool
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#450449 - 04/15/18 08:43 AM Re: SPOILED FOR CHOICE............. REFLECTIONS....... [Re: travlin'easy]
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Gary, just for the sake of discussion:
You have clearly either missed the point of my post OR (and most likely) chosen to deflect by mounting an offense/defense against a completely different issue (one that is more likely to be supported by other forum members).

Originally Posted By travlin'easy
I've thoroughly enjoyed every keyboard I've owned - every single one of them.


This is not about how much you enjoy a gadget; I ENJOY playing with my drone....for about 15 minutes. This is more about prioritizing the art form (MUSIC) over the technology.

Originally Posted By travlin'easy
What technology provided for me was incredibly realistic instrument sounds, for which in turn, provided me with the inspiration to learn more and play better.


I find it hard to believe that any ARRANGER KEYBOARD is going to inspire ANYONE to PLAY BETTER. For the best players, a love of music is what inspired them to play better.

Originally Posted By travlin'easy
Not only did I want to learn more songs and chord structures, but I also wanted to explore every aspect of the keyboard's features.


And which features on an arranger keyboard gives you a better understanding of chord structures?

Originally Posted By travlin'easy
More often than not I would spend 3 to 6 months with each new keyboard before putting it in use on stage.


....compared to the 10-15 years before the average professional pianist or violinist considers themselves ready for a professional (as in FOR PAY) performance.

Originally Posted By travlin'easy
That to me was what technology provided.



OR, one could view it as a way to avoid the long and tedious years of practice and dedication necessary to make a living as a professional musician.

I understand that my post may come across as somewhat "preachy", but as I stated previously, it was purely to present a different point of view on the ever recurring topic of technology 'gear-lust' as an approach to making us better musicians. I'm just saying that technology MAY not be the problem. In the words of our POST-master general, 'just sayin'.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#450451 - 04/15/18 08:53 AM Re: SPOILED FOR CHOICE............. REFLECTIONS....... [Re: john smies]
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
I have always considered the arranger a true instrument. In the sense that it must be learned, practiced with, and explored fully. Yes, it is different from learning a horn, or guitar or even piano, but nevertheless one must learn to play it and being familiar and using the technology is a part of it.
I can play trumpet, organ, guitar, bass and drums, to various levels, but still consider the arranger the most fun and the most challenging to play.
I fully understand the point Chas is making, and I agree, but one shouldn't need to defend using an arranger on an arranger forum, or using the optimum technology for your needs or desires! smile
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DonM

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#450454 - 04/15/18 09:44 AM Re: SPOILED FOR CHOICE............. REFLECTIONS....... [Re: DonM]
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Originally Posted By DonM
I have always considered the arranger a true instrument.


I think an arranger keyboard is a chameleon, and can only be defined (in the moment) by HOW it is being used and by WHOM. As with most instruments, traditional or electronic, they are going to sound better in the hands of a professional than an amateur. As Abacus so often says, it's the 'easy-play' features that relegates it (in the minds of most people) to the status of a 'home' instrument, and in many cases, is marketed as such. They are usually the least featured or displayed instrument in most music stores and, feature wise, the least understood by music store salesmen.

If you're looking for a triangle or a cowbell (the musical kind), I'm sure you can find a 'cheapo' or a 'professional' model (with the corresponding disparity in price smile ). I'm not sure what that has to do with anything but I'm sure I was about to make some kind of point smile ....eh, old age.

But Don is right, you shouldn't have to defend using an arranger, not only on an arranger forum but on ANY forum. What I was attempting to address was the concept that more and better technology (and the never-ending lust for it) is the way to improve our musical prowess. Also, the trend towards prioritizing the technology over the music.

There is no question that in some musical situations, an arranger keyboard is the absolute best tool for the job. To paraphrase Capt. Russ, it's only when it's used as a CRUTCH (instead of a tool) that it's stature and status among instruments is diminished.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#450455 - 04/15/18 10:07 AM Re: SPOILED FOR CHOICE............. REFLECTIONS....... [Re: cgiles]
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Originally Posted By cgiles
Originally Posted By DonM
I have always considered the arranger a true instrument.


I think an arranger keyboard is a chameleon, and can only be defined (in the moment) by HOW it is being used and by WHOM. As with most instruments, traditional or electronic, they are going to sound better in the hands of a professional than an amateur. As Abacus so often says, it's the 'easy-play' features that relegates it (in the minds of most people) to the status of a 'home' instrument, and in many cases, is marketed as such. They are usually the least featured or displayed instrument in most music stores and, feature wise, the least understood by music store salesmen.

If you're looking for a triangle or a cowbell (the musical kind), I'm sure you can find a 'cheapo' or a 'professional' model (with the corresponding disparity in price smile ). I'm not sure what that has to do with anything but I'm sure I was about to make some kind of point smile ....eh, old age.

But Don is right, you shouldn't have to defend using an arranger, not only on an arranger forum but on ANY forum. What I was attempting to address was the concept that more and better technology (and the never-ending lust for it) is the way to improve our musical prowess. Also, the trend towards prioritizing the technology over the music.

There is no question that in some musical situations, an arranger keyboard is the absolute best tool for the job. To paraphrase Capt. Russ, it's only when it's used as a CRUTCH (instead of a tool) that it's stature and status among instruments is diminished.

chas


Russ knows some stuff! smile
_________________________
DonM

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#450462 - 04/15/18 11:44 AM Re: SPOILED FOR CHOICE............. REFLECTIONS....... [Re: john smies]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15556
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Chas, I think YOU have misunderstood what I posted, but as you have stated many times, age has a way of interfering with things.

Now, I can play a guitar, and did so for many years and made side money performing in honky-tonk bars in Baltimore. I also can play a harmonica, and at one time, owned a half dozen very expensive models. I played a mandolin in a country band, then hung it on the wall as a decorative piece and went back to playing a 12 string guitar. I was never good at a trumpet (didn't have the lip for it), and tried to master a fiddle, but never did. Never tried to play a B3, and never really wanted to after watching those bands wrestle those things on to the stage.

For me, when I purchased my very first arranger keyboard, I considered it an instrument, a very complex instrument. I never considered them a crutch or a toy or treated them as such. Throughout the many decades I have played music, I have always striven to improve my playing skills and ability. It made no difference which instrument I was playing at the time. That is my point entirely, Chas.

Gary (The old fart!) wink
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#450465 - 04/15/18 12:22 PM Re: SPOILED FOR CHOICE............. REFLECTIONS....... [Re: travlin'easy]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703

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#450466 - 04/15/18 12:27 PM Re: SPOILED FOR CHOICE............. REFLECTIONS....... [Re: john smies]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By john smies


I think he meant to say...

We don’t have the perfect can do all and everything instrument yet...
Thats not a thing of salesnumbers, but a thing of design choices... [/quote]


That is only relative. In a nutshell: If you were to include all outstanding aspects of the Genos, The PA4X and the SD9 you would have a keyboard with little left to be desired imho....

regards
John [/quote]

Which means that after that...
companies need to become innovative again and find new things that people want..

And i was more thinking along the lines of all the tools of Genos, Montage, Motif and CP1/4...
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Roland Jupiter 80, Ipad pro.

http://keyszone.boards.net

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#450469 - 04/15/18 12:44 PM Re: SPOILED FOR CHOICE............. REFLECTIONS....... [Re: Bachus]
sparky589 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 1461
Loc: NJ
Looking for a "No wedge-driving zone"..can anyone point me in the right direction?
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