Don: Berlin was a stones throw from my recording studio in Appleton. Nice little town. I played a gig at Berlin High School back in the early 70’s

Wow! Talk about deflection. Everything in my post had to do with what constitutes a PROFESSIONAL MUSICIAN. I did not mention once (nor do I care) what kind of instrument they choose to use. In fact, I saw very little in your dictionary references that refuted what I said. YOUR point was very clear...if you got paid, you're a professional. I disagreed with that definition, explaining (or trying to) that that singular criteria was not enough to clearly define a 'professional'. As usual, the 'league of arranger-defenders' hastened to change it to 'OMG, he's trying to say professionals don't use Arrangers'. The truth is, MOST professionals DON'T. There are literally tens of thousands of TRUE music professionals out there; because you know TWO that use Arranger keyboards is hardly conclusive proof of whatever it is you're trying to prove. I reiterate, I never brought up the subject of arrangers or whether their use had any bearing on whether someone is a 'professional' or not. It's HOW you play, not WHAT you play, that's important. 'Entertainer' is too broad a field for me to a say if someone is a 'professional' or not, but then, this is a MUSIC forum so I tend to base my judgments on someone's music skills. A lion tamer, a bull rider, an alligator wrestler; they're all entertainers. I guess you could say, if they don't get themselves killed, they're professionals. My whole point was, just because you get paid a fee doesn't NECESSARILY make you a professional. That was my ONLY point. I stand by it.

chas

My definition is simple, someone that plays for a fee.

Generally, this definition is used to differentiate an 'amateur' from a 'professional' for the purpose of competition, such as in a 'pro-am' sports tournament ... it has little if anything to do with the ability of the individual ...
When I was competing in accordion competitions, if you were being paid as an accordion instructor, or were getting payed to play gigs, you could not compete in the ' amateur' categories ... you had to compete in the 'open' categories ... Believe me, there were 'amateurs' with far more talent and ability than a lot of the 'professionals' ...

Of course there are at least two widely recognized meanings of "professional". If you get paid for doing something it technically makes you a professional.
If you are extremely accomplished at doing something, you are recognized as being a pro, or professional, regardless of whether you make your living at it.
That is my ruling. Now play nice or I'll come back to haunt you. Hope not soon though.

I was mistaken. When I was in Berlin, it was in my capacity as advertising manager for Murphy Oil Corporation. We were marketing at the time under the Spur brand. I would travel around the country helping set up sales promotion programs in every state from Florida to Minnesota.
The place I was thinking about where I played was in West Allis, near Milwaukee, at the state fair. That was in about 1969 or 70. I don't even remember many of the names of the young ladies I encountered along the way back then. However the one in Milwaukee was Jeanine Jueguere. She was special. . . She thought I had a cute southern accent.
DNJ, I have pix of her.

Chas, though I like your definition much better myself, I'd say that Gary is also right about his definition. Years ago, a fellow musician told me, "Now that you played your first paid gig, you are a professional musician." I thought that was a silly statement. I thought he just wanted to make sure that he himself was referred to as a professional musician though he can't really function without an arranger. He said that he played a lot of gigs in Hollywood just because people liked to hear his latest $6,000 electronic instrument(Cordovox) even though he played basically 3 chords on it.
Sounded like he did make a living for a few years playing 3 chords. Well, his full-time "profession" was playing music (whether it involved 3 or 14,000 chords). Full-time profession - professional. You may not like how the word is used but the thing is that language is never static, but always fluid. A case in point; I saw a large painting of a San Francisco bar in a pioneer village. The caption read, "Life in SF back then was gay." The spelling han't changed, but the meanings have changed.

I am all ears when Fran and Gary speak because I've read lots of posts by both and I enjoyed their "amusing" discussions on Bose vs Roland speakers. (I went with the Roland BA330, and read a long article on the internet as to why "professional" musicians don't use Bose speakers) Both Gary and Fran have made a great case and yet I never remember they got personal with each other. My hats off to them. I can't speak for Gary, but I remember Gary saying a few times, "I am not a musician, but an entertainer." Just as Tony gave an example of how the words professional and amateur are used in music competitions or in sports, often meanings can change depending on the context. A text taken out of the context is a pretext. An important concept for me especially when reading the Bible.

Yes, words are important, but I'd say more important are the heart condition. I'd think that a true professional musician doesn't really have to emphasize that he or she/is a professional. The world will say it for him/her. Earlier I called up my friend(the Hollywood 3 chord guy) and told him about this thread. When I told him about Gary, I could feel it; if he was 10 years younger, I bet he would have asked me for Gary's phone number to learn the trade secret.

Don, If you were playing a gig at the Wisconsin State Fair...you are definitely a “Professional”💰

“I
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: September, 29 2005
Posts: 4658
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
My take is that very few combined-function/swiss-army-knife devices (of ANY sort) perform as well as a separately developed dedicated device performing the same function. Sure, you can put a hammer head or saw on the end of a screwdriver but nobody would buy it, simply because it is simply not as good as it's single-function counterpart.

Arrangers (and Workstations) will continue to evolve because developers are constantly trying to create the 'perfect' arranger (or workstation). If arranger-functions were merely a 'feature' on some 'Master do-it-all keyboard', it probably wouldn't get the same level of R&D. Let's face it; Arranger players want the ultimate ARRANGER, and Workstation players want the ultimate WORKSTATION, and never the twain shall meet. Also, what Donny said; it's probably way more profitable to keep them seperate. Trust me, the corporations know what they're doing (marketing wise). JMO, though.

chas “

I respectfully disagree with you Chas. The reality of the situation is that most musicians do not fall at the extreme ends of either group. Most musicians actually fall somewhere in the middle. For example most arranger players use probably 30% -50 percent of the arranger features even though you can do so much more in terms of actual performance related style playing. And most workstation please probably use a similar percentage of their workstation keyboard. Most do not know how to design sounds from scratch and can only tweak or buy professional sounds and import them .

In general all musicians simply want to use the tools available to them to get the job done to a reasonable standard. No one is trying to paint a picaso or craft the most perfect musical production that can be crafted on one keyboard like a record ready production.

. However they do want to be able to make great music relatively easily , authentic in every way when desired, or quick rough and ready when the circumstances demand it

. And most working musicians will take sigle , duo and band or studio work if your skills are up to it.

Why then would they not desire one keyboard that could cover all bases reasonably well?

There is a reason why the Swiss Army knife is a world renowned name in most cultures everywhere but only a handful of people can name a specific type of blade like the Bowie knife or Stanley knife or scalpel let alone how to use them properly .

There is more ignorance amongstkeyboard players about strangers than any other instrument . Just look how hard it has been to define the difference between a “true”” workstation and a “arranger “ workstation.

Spalding, you're more than welcome to disagree, respectfully or not, after all it's just one opinion vs. another. In most of these type 'discussions', the free-thinkers will use logic and observable facts to decide on an issue; the 'herd' will decide based on the popularity of the poster (It's one of those "you can't prove it but you know it's true" kind of things).

I will always call it as I see it and try hard not to be one of those 'check to see who the poster is, read the first three words of the post, immediately start writing a rebuttal ). But hey, that's one of the things that make THIS forum less boring than most of the other forums---it's a cult of personalities, some good (like me ) and some not so good, like ....... uh, you know who you are . For those that don't know me well, that last statement was said in jest....mostly.

BTW, how are things over there? We'll trade you Theresa May for......never mind, don't want to start a riot . BTW, not a big fan of church or religion (as you well know), but I love and admire the work you do with the youth groups in your church. I so much rather see them in a youth choir than hanging out on street corners (I'm ol' school, I guess ).

chas

Hi chas I had actually taken a couple of years hiatus from the children’s choir I work with but I kind of didn’t like to see them falling into disarray so have stepped back in . It’s really hard to find committed people who will sacrifice their time and talents to work with younger children .

But having said that , their isn’t a more rewarding job 😉. I love children and I know in today’s climate (post Kevin spacey ) that’s a dangerous thing in particular for a man to say , but it’s true . And if they don’t have strong positive role models to follow , then this world will show them plenty of negative ones .

Interms of the montage , I get the impression it has not been anywhere near the success as the motif range was . I play with a fair amount of gospel musicians and I have not seen a montage on stage yet but plenty motifs and Roland synths/workstations.

I think Yamaha know they made a mistake with the montage and are trying to recoup their losses ,