....and what do they want in an Arranger keyboard? First of all, (respectfully) Bachus, by his own admission, is not your typical Arranger player, either home OR Pro, so although HIS wishlist is long, creative, all-encompassing, and well thought out, it sounds far more like a STUDIO WORKSTATION GEEK SQUAD list than the wishlist of the average Arranger player. Donny is 100% correct in saying that most arranger players have little or no interest in sound editing (they buy the instrument because they LIKE the sounds that are already there), DAW integration, etc. As Bill (Abacus) has pointed out repeatedly (and I do mean REPEATEDLY ), most arranger buyers are 'home players' who mainly just want to 'open the box, plug it in, and PLAY). I'm guessing that Yamaha also knows this since they've done pretty well so far on just glitz, hype, strategically timed feature releases, and great marketing. Hey, 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it'.

Along with Donny's (above) observation, here is another similar one that intrigues me. People get carried away with these professionally produced, flowery, ethreal, exotic DEMO'S, using sounds, layers, combi's, ect. that we would never, ever use in real-life playing (home or gig), and we (well, not me ) immediately put it on the top of our must-have list, sell our hardly-explored previous model, deny our wives any frivolous purchases for the next six months, and then rush off to make our annual donation to the Yamaha heirs trust fund. The truth is, as Uncle Dave pointed out, most of us use about 6-10 voices of the thousands available, 95% of the time. We even choose styles which use the same limited voice pool. I bought a cheap kb controller recently that came with thousands of VST's and VSTi's. Although I had fun listening to them, I realized that I would probably only use about 15 of them; most, I couldn't even imagine a use for. But then, I only paid $149, not $5-6000. But hey, this is America; if you got it, spend it (even if you don't have, charge it ).

In the words of one of our esteemed members, "your thoughts?".

chas

I am a home player and the Genos fits the bill. I have owned a
Tyros 2,4,5, all great and satisfying keyboards. I do not have
use for making my own styles, Yamahas are perfect for my use.
I am along in years (88) and so I am happy with what is in the
board already. More than I need but I want very good voices
and styles and the Genos has them. I am a happy camper. Lloyd

Is there a "TYPICAL" arranger player? ... maybe, ... I don't know ...
Personally, I don't KNOW enough about sound editing to really make a difference in the OOTB sounds on my Pa900, so I just leave them alone ... I have edited many of the styles for different songs, adding parts, subtracting parts, changing voices, intros, endings, etc. ...
For MY purposes, I look for good styles and the ability to edit them as I see fit, decent sounds, a good vocal processor, and the ability to access what I need 'on the fly' ...

While I may only use a very small percentage of the sounds most of the time, it is nice to have certain voices for that particular time when that voice better fits the song - like a 'Honky-Tonk' piano instead of a 'Grand Piano' ...
Just My Thoughts ...

Just another thought ... An architect designs a house, and a builder builds it ... one person may buy the house, move their furniture in, and live in it and be perfectly happy, while another person may buy that house, change lighting fixtures, wall colors, etc. etc. to 'make it their own' ... same with KBs ...

I'm probably not a typical player, definitely not a musician, but I have edited dozens of sounds/voices, used many of the onboard sounds and styles, modified lots of styles to suit the song I'm performing and loved all the features that are available. I reality, Yamaha and other manufacturers have created something that appeals to a very diverse group, musicians, entertainers, home players, song writers, and more. They tend to provide options for each and every one of those subgroups of owners, which makes their boards so appealing to each of them. The beauty is, there are no restrictions - you can pretty much create anything your heart desires, and do it well. So, the quick answer to your question is, there is NO typical player, IMO.

Gary

If I don't like a sound, I find another. Plenty to choose from on today's arrangers. I would say that style editing is used more frequently by the "average" arranger player than sound editing.

Very good points Chas.
I also agree with the others on arrangers.
However, don't forget that the US market is very small compared to the European and Asian market.
The Demos are played for everyone around the world.
I know quite a few people in Europe that are actually use all the layered sounds presented in the demos.
Take Bachus for example. He is from Holland and enjoyed the ensemble feature in the T5.
There are quite a few people in Germany actually sharing different setting for the ensemble feature.
Again, these demos are made for a much larger audience than us here in the US.
We have certainly typical arranger players in the US, but it always amazes me how people from other countries and backgrounds use these arrangers.
And the manufactures need to keep all this in mind.
Eric

I'm probably not typical. But one of those who don't use more than a handful or two of sounds. It amazes me that someone might need MORE than the several hundred on board.
Styles, that's different. I have most everything I need, but new ones can add freshness. Years ago I built almost everything I used from scratch. It's not necessary any more, but I do change drums, style part instruments, volumes, etc. quite often.
My arranger is a tool, which I use to make money and inflate my ego. If I were just playing at home, I probably wouldn't play at all, except maybe strum a guitar.
I have forgotten the question, so will go quietly now.

That's right Don, you're not; neither is Gary, Donny, Uncle Dave, MusicForYourDay, Russ, and one or two others. You're all 'Pro's' and only a handful of Pro's use arranger kb's (IN THE AMERICAN MARKET). The rest of the week-end warrior types (those who gig for fun and 'discretionary income), I consider semi-pro. Even among the home players, there are exceptions to the 'plug and play' gang; that would be the more tech-oriented adventurous types, such as Bachus. I would also exclude them from the 'typical' classification. So, bottom line, it's ALL THE REST that I would consider 'typical'. So, in other words, if you don't fall into the 'typical' category, your opinions, though interesting, DON'T COUNT .

Hope you get the SPIRIT of what I'm trying to say here.

chas

Ha, ha, ha
Good luck with that :):):)
The ones that count don't usually post much
Eric

I really haven't found an arranger, other than perhaps Ketron, that is set at the factory to sound really good when you turn it on. I wonder why that is? ....

That is tough because it incorporates many factors, some subjective, some not. For example, my Roland BK-9 had all the potential to be a great sounding keyboard, in spite of it's two small windows that had a purpose. The trouble was that the factory released it without balancing the thing. That, of coarse, is the factory's fault. Then you have Yamaha that almost never sends anything out unless it's right, but I think their drums are whimpy. That's subjective, as home players don't think so. The Ketrons, e.g., have arguably the most realistic. live sound. but has been known to have a few other flaws in the beginning. My Pa4x is the closest I have seen yet, but even they had to send out some updates to fix a few minor items, but made up for it by a major upgrade.

I'm talking more about the e.q. setup. Hardly any of them sound good without adjusting a bunch of things. Maybe it's my aging ears!

Geeze, Chas, you are the second person today that told me my opinion don't count - Carol said the same thing this morning just before I left to go to the boat. She said the boat don't count either.

Gary

I am really surprised that no one mentioned the sequencer. I am not a pro player, mostly play for my own enjoyment. Occasionally I will play out for some party or a get together but they are really far and few between. I want a arranger with a good sequencer. I play songs for me in my age era. These would be songs from the late fifties and early sixties. The doo wop era. Back in the time they introduced symphony strings and back up singers in. I like to have the songs I play as close to the originals as I can get them. I sequence the strings, horns etc coming in the song at different times. I am not a singer so I play the lead and let the strings and etc come in. The only problem is you have to know where you are at at all times. As you can see my era means I am 75 years old but I do love the arrangers.
RC

Who is the typical arranger player?

What an odd question. What are the criteria for judging the player? What they do with styles? What they do with sounds? Do they play only at home? Do they get paid to play?

I believe there are many good arranger players who use every part of their keyboards and get paid well for their efforts. Then as the years pass by they end up as home players who want nothing more but to set and play music. The need to change and add is no longer necessary. The complicity of the arranger has grown. There were times when I found myself spending more time learning and adjusting than playing music.
In the days when I played out I had my bass go to a bass amp; my drums sent to a different channel in the mixer – and I turn my keyboard into a piano to meet the need. There was no part of the keyboard that I did not know and use. As the seasons changed so did I.
So the question, “Who is the typical arranger player”, is really saying what????

No offence too anyone, but there really is no typical arranger player on Synthzone. That question must be followed with a criterion for judging.

John C.
PS, And let’s not forget some of fantastic players and technicians that are no longer here – were they typical or outstanding.

Well said John
Eric

Don’t know if I’m “typical” or not. Don’t really think about it. I must be a semi-pro, a retired educator, who plays for fun and whatever the gig pays----to be turned around for new gear, such as the latest arranger. Like others, my use of styles and voices is limited and narrow because of the type material I play. However, I prefer the wide range of voices and styles in top-end arrangers to assist with home recording. I often record backing tracks for local singers, personalized just the way they want it. These arrangers are well-suited for that purpose, especially with strings and other overdubs that can put the polish to a track.

Hi Chas:

In this heady atmosphere (mostly folks who make their living performing in front of paying audiences (or paying patrons) using Arranger Keyboards, I am certainly not extruded from that mold... or more technically, that extrusion die. My "performances" are limited to the safety of my small studio where I write songs, arrange the instruments to accompany my less than professional vocal, adjust the various volumes, decide whether the song should have simple or sublime accompaniment... all after coming up with an idea for a song, reeling off a lyric and anguishing about which key I should attempt to sing in.

The arranger (no matter which brand) is a Godsend to Songwriters and probably the best kept secret in the music biz. Most big box stores that sell keyboards don't possess educated and informed staff who understand exactly what an arranger can do. It is a complete orchestra with accompanying choir (if desired) or can be a simple, intimate little venue with one or two instruments (such as acoustic guitars) possibly a bass and even a drummer if needed.

I use Yamaha's PSR-S910 because is has a Tyros Engine, cost significantly less (especially used) and allows me to get the gist of what I am trying to do with a song across. I can vary the individual volumes of each instrument, choir or multi-pad.

My use of Yamaha has evolved to primarily a simpler learning curve when attempting to upgrade to a new Yamaha Model. (I want a 970 so bad I can taste it... but until a replacement model arrives, I can't afford a new one.)

The rest of you are mostly real talented performers and vocalists and I am only attempting to make a decent demo of my song idea so that Artists, Producers and Publishers might want to "cover" my work... thus plugging me into the income stream.

Those of you who use other "boards" so effectively have my complete admiration. For me, this late in my fifth career, it is a matter of expediency to stick with Yamaha.

Realizing that I am probably at the bottom of the Arranger User Pyramid is perfectly okay with me. It suits my purposes and saves me an awful lot of money for not having to pay studios to do my demos. Money is very tight and competition is very keen in the songwriting business.

Regards, ----Dave Rice

http://www.ShowCaseYourMusic.com/DaveRice?

I play at home for myself as a hobby. I guess if arrangers did not exist, i would not have taken an interest in playing the keyboard. I think todays arrangers sound just as good as a non arranger keyboard...but its just amazing how many things todays arrangers can do for home players that those professional non arranger players will never have

I also think your arranger keyboard player does infact adjust eq on sounds but just the basic stuff, and maybe replace a drum kit or sound on a style. I was always told a yamaha is a good easy to understand keyboard for playing at home and a korg is very difficult to understand and maybe suited for stage only. After owning yamaha for years.. tyros, s900,s910..i heard a korg pa600 one day and could not believe how much better it sounded. And i actually found it easier to use and able to sound far better than i ever did with the yamahas... my lesson here was dont believe everything u read...I will never ever buy another yamaha product again. Ive since sold the pa600. Now i await either the pa700 or pa1000. Cant decide still.

Typical Arranger Player = the way the majority of Arranger buyers use their keyboard, simples.

Bill

Like What

Bill

Styles, multi pads, vocal harmony..

They create their own backing to suit the arrangement they are creating, so as to make sure it fits what they want, and doesn’t sound like anybody else. (Over the years they build up their own unique backing library) Many also play their own backing live.

Multipads as used on an arranger were on workstations/synths long before arrangers got them. (They just weren’t called Multipads)

Apart from Korg (Which have a version of the TC Helicon vocal harmoniser) the rest fall well short of the quality required for a top notch performance, which is why a separate unit is used to get the best quality.

Anything else

Bill

Ok i get what u saying. I guess i want the easy way out.. having everything done already for you. u need alot of talent to create your own style on a non arranger i guess..

Rolandfan what you are doing is OK in my book, The good Lord did not wire us all the same. ENJOY!

John C.
PS, when I had my music school I was often asked “how am I doing with my lessons”. My replay was ALWAYS the same, ‘If you are enjoying playing instrument don’t change anything”.

THANK YOU Bill, for simplifying this. That's exactly what I meant. I should have known that going into too much detail was bound to rile someone up. I was just trying to weed out NON-typical users such as 'Pro's' and super-techs, whose needs and wants are going to be different from the 'typical' Arranger buyer IN AMERICA (and not just on Synthzone). I guess I should have just asked 'What does the typical...uh, average Arranger kb player want to see in their next kb purchase?'. Anyhow, I'm glad that the majority of responders understood the question and that I wasn't trying to offend anyone.

chas

Typical arranger player?

For me, it’s easier to see who’s not interested.

(1). High School students that I sub teach for. More interested in piano/synths. They like to play in bands. One student did buy a DGX 650. But he mostly plays piano.

(2). High school Music teachers including my brother. I’ve tried to get the local high school vocal teacher to allow me to do a demo....no interest.

(3). The assisted living activity directors I know....who play piano. “Too many buttons I’m told”

(4). My cousin and another friend(keyboard players)who entertain. They would rather bring a drum machine.

(5). Old rock and roll players I know from my generation. They like to play in groups and are fans of portable Hammond organs.

The biggest negatives I hear about arrangers from musically inclined keyboard players.

A. No hammered action...not 88 keys.

B. Too many buttons.

C. Playing along with an arranger player means that the band has to follow the arranger player.

I have tried many times to get my band to follow my beat on an arranger, but they can't follow it or can't hear it. I simplified the beat and even bought earbuds and a headphone amp for a tick tract, but no dice. It is a shame because we need a decent drummer and bass player, and I provide much more. They are content having me play lead and they do things the way they always have.

.

I guess as long as there are forums, people will answer the question they hear in their minds.....as opposed to the one that is posted. Once again; IF YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF THE TYPICAL ARRANGER KB PLAYER, WHAT FEATURES WOULD YOU LIKE SEE IN THE NEXT INSTRUMENT YOU PURCHASE?

chas

I've said it before, but the band we had in NY for 26 years was the exact opposite of that ... 5 very good friends who played some great music ... if only I could go back to that ... but I know I can't, so I will continue on with my Pa900, being typical or not ...

.

.

I normally play other players while using some form of auto accompaniment and luckily have never had problems with musicians not being able to lock in. I normally play with a percussionist, sax/flute, singer and, guitar. I've also worked with trombone, trumpet, violin, vibes, drum set and bass players. I wish I could provide them with in ear monitors but like I said it really has never been a problem for them to lock in. I'm blessed to know many very good musicians that have always practiced with metronomes, and have experience on stage playing with some sort of sequence. In a perfect world all the musicians I work with including myself would rather just play completely live but budgets are so tight and clients needs are so different,. The arranger keyboard gives me the flexibility play solo , duo or full band with so many types of configurations, it's a great tool!

A few years ago I was recruited to play in a 7 piece, 60s-80's rock band for 6 months. The band consisted of lead guitar, rhythm guitar, bass, drums, two non-playing vocalists and me playing an arranger. My role was to be any other instrument they needed. Strings, horns, piano, organ, etc. Never played a style or rhythm. It was fun for the better part of the 6 months, but was glad to get back to being a single. In short re: Chas's question....the arranger was perfect for the job. Nothing else required.
Eddie

I occasionally use a guitar player, a harmonica player and/or a sax player to join me for special things. I've never had a problem with any of them following the arranger. BUT, they are true pros, as good as just about anybody anywhere, and that makes a difference!
If you can't stay with a beat, what would you do in a recording studio? You'd get booted in about two minutes!

Fully agree with A from a piano players view.
Fully disagree with B, give me an hour and i have them playing and they never forget how logical the outlay is.

C soon belons to the pass, the Montage has something called an envelope follower. Which allows your areanger tempo to follow a drummer, if thats wise? I domt know, but its quite well possible.. but if the drummer fracks up, the whole band might be in utter chaos.

Its not just arrangers requiring a steady beat... also synths with arps can be boumd to time signature

Have to agree with Don … I have tried many of the brands touted here (except the newer arrangers Genos, Pa4X, Pa1000) and sound-wise and for ease of use, its Ketron hands down. I use the Midjay Plus - have several of them - and find it very versatile as I sometimes use it with a keyboard, midi accordion, or keytar, whatever the gig calls for. From time to time, I use the plus for DJ gigs. As long as AJ is around to support them, and because they are so simple to use and transport, the Plus is sufficient for me.
Ciao,
Jerry

Two points I've been hammering forever - GOOD MONITORS, and able to follow. The days of "follow the drummer" are over. EVERYONE, and I mean EVERYONE needs to know how to keep time. Right from the start of the machines, I said that every drummer needs to own one. A musician needs to LISTEN, and FOLLOW. Studio cats have to follow a click track, why can't a live drummer, or band? Adrenaline? Alcohol? Ego? Whatever the reason - it's got to stop. Simple, right? Maybe not so, but I think both points are paramount to a groove worth listening to. I sometimes play in a 10 piece band that has a full rhythm section, a full horn section, a live drummer, and we are heavily sequenced. It enhances the overall sound exponentially. The drummer has a wedge aimed at his ear - it's his job to stay with the sequence, not the other way around. It's follow the leader ... and sometimes, the leader is a machine.
My take on things - this is not intended to start any fights.

The only fights would come from the undisciplined who have no business in a band. Thank you UD.

Dave, I agree with everything you stated. I have played with several bands, and none could keep time worth a damned. The only person I ever encountered that kept perfect time with a US Navy Band drummer - he was like a metronome - yes, he was that good, and a pure joy to play with. When not playing for the US Navy Band, he was the drummer for the Zim Zemeral Band/Orchestra and sometimes filled in at the Baltimore Symphony. Unfortunately, nearly everyone that was in Zim's band, including zim and his lovely wife, have recently passed away.

Gary

As btweengigs said...." A few years ago I was recruited to play in a 7 piece, 60s-80's rock band for 6 months. The band consisted of lead guitar, rhythm guitar, bass, drums, two non-playing vocalists and me playing an arranger. My role was to be any other instrument they needed. Strings, horns, piano, organ, etc. Never played a style or rhythm. It was fun for the better part of the 6 months, but was glad to get back to being a single. In short re: Chas's question....the arranger was perfect for the job. Nothing else required."
Eddie

I think like this...... as a musician, you use your instrument to it's limits ( for me) , and sometimes just bare bones. With an arranger just like a syth, know what it can and can't do and go from there. There is one limitation on an arranger, I would like to see is more DAW's being able to be accessed by arrangers directly; like a synth can. This is not needed on the keyboard per se, but on the software side. I think only then will so called "Pros" acknowledge the arranger as a worthy contender for the marketplace/stage etc.

The preconceived idea that the TOTL arranger is still a toy out there, is a burden we all carry ( or not); but it's their problem not ours.
I can play ( without auto accomp.) any style from classical to jazz to reggae to pop to gospel etc. just using the piano like most of you, I am guessing. But unfortunately, people say no 88 keys or it's not a real synth etc etc BS. Closed/ narrow minded people that still label it in the 30 years ago box.

Allan

+1

Well, you might try convincing some drummers of that...
Some are a little stubborn...
Only a little...

But i agree, every drummer should have a click track in his left ear...

I moved my office recently, after 28 years in the same place. I set aside samples of a project I was going to share, and now, I have misplaced it. It will surface soon.

What it is is a film score....14 min, I think. There are three version. 1. is a rough done on an old Clavinova, showing the shell pattern, using all automatic features. Sounds pretty rough, but it is what it is.

2. is same changes, but a different style to test flexibility for other versions down he road.

3. is no arranger at all. It is done to the fully edited screen images.

I'll find these and post them soon. The arranger is invaluable when I do a rough to start a project.

Russ

Looking forward to seeing and hearing them, Russ.

Gary

My drummers have always sped up, or lost rhythm , even with a monitor I put there for them, Including a longtime Sony studios musician. They are not machines. I wish it worked better. Last gig I did as a duo the drummer said i could have done the gig myself, which was true but the client requested live drums..

They are not very good musicians, either if they can't follow. Listening is more important than any other aspect when you're in an ensemble, no matter how small. If a drummer can't follow the "band" ... there's always Domino's delivery options.