Where are Pro Arranger KB Players headed? well we talked about where the music business, DJ's, Live bands etc, are headed, .....but aside from "Nursing home jobs" which is pretty much a given,.... what about the "PRO Gigging Arranger keyboard players" regarding playing out live at other Venues besides NH's? Will you be performing with it solo, duo, band, keyboard/DJ/Singer mix or? is it pretty much headed to the living rooms again like home organs from yesteryear for personal use?
Just where is the Arranger Keyboard Player headed in the future...?

Thoughts?

Arranger use by professionals is small, (It always has been) and will probably continue in this vain with minimal change, due to the fact that probably 99% of arrangers go into the home.

Bill

Bill thanx for your thoughts....

Actually in Holland, there are quite a lot of gigging musicians using arrangers..

Mostly those playing dutch and schlager music, which is still a considerable part of performing musicians.. In germany and Austria, its even more that use arrangers on stage...

Still a considerable amount, altough considerably less then a decade ago..



The problem is with the youngsters, they either refuse to invest huge amounts of time for gathering player skills and just go daw, deejay and small analogue synth..

Or they go for guitar... or straight piano... both combined with singing.. how strange it sounds, areangers are way to compkicated for them. And a piano player does not require a full backing but can perform okay with just a simple drum beat... knowing this, it only seems logical for Yamaha to morph their high end workstation and arrangers into a single instrument.

If nothing happens, arranger keyboards (as well as synth workstation) will soon belongbto the past in Holland... they will be alive as long as old timers keep playing and buying them..


Keep in mind tough that Asia and south east asia are totally different markets where areanger keyboards are still very popular with young and old...

Had to sit and think for a minute and go back a lot of years but the number of Arrangers I've seen played in pro situations I could count on my fingers, no toes needed. Not counting a few I've seen who just use their Arranger to play backing tracks. Just counting those that are really played.
Here in SC there is music all over but only one guy uses an Arranger
( BK5 now a Yamaha ) and he uses it just for the drum patterns in a duo with his wife. He plays LH Bas and RH chords. She does all the fills on a Keytar.
Three other acts use drum machines, no arrangers. Everything else I've seen is all live. The other thing I've noticed is the Backing track thing which I saw all over in NJ is almost nonexistent here. Only seen one guy doing it.
I don't see much of a future for Arrangers in pro gig situations outside of the NHs . They never really caught on big in the first place.

Bill and Bachus....all good points....it's sad but in tne evolution of music it is inevitable....there are many other ways too make music as the people have spoken with their actions....great topic..and the other question is ...what is Replacing arranger kbs?

There are a relatively large number of arrangers in use in Mexico. I've sold four to a friend there, and he says they are in demand, even earlier model used ones.
I know of only four or five in use around here.

At one time, on Baltimore, there were at least two dozen keyboard players, all but one were also singers and OMB or duo entertainers with female vocalist. They performed just about everywhere, nite clubs, high end restaurants, VFWs, American Legions and animal clubs. With few exceptions, they all worked primarily on weekends and had full-time, weekday jobs. Today, that number is down to about a half-dozen at most. Many have passed away, while others have shifted to the senior circuit, which is far more lucrative.

Some of the venues switched to Karaoke, mainly the American Legions and VFWs, where the same dozen or less members stand in the spotlight and sing the same songs every Friday or Saturday night. Most, only have musical entertainment one night a week, while the restaurants and nite clubs usually have musical entertainment both Friday and Saturday nights. A large number of restaurants in this area have cut out music all together.

When I was in Mexico a few years ago, arranger keyboard players were in nearly every hotel and restaurant, usually duos and trios and they performed nearly every night of the week. At the Palace Las Americas, where we stayed, they had nightly shows, keyboards were in every show band, and there was a keyboard player in the lounge as well.

I have a friend that lives in Malaysia who performs with three to four, drop-dead, gorgeous lady musicians, puts on some huge shows, and is constantly on the road, touring with his group. My good friend, Panda and his ladies have been and will continue to be very successful.



I sincerely believe that as long as there is musical entertainment in this world, arranger keyboards will continue to play a significant role in providing that musical entertainment.

Now, lets define Pro Players. A professional (person) engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as a pastime. Example: a professional boxer, a professional rugby player, a professional musician, a professional entertainer. These are paid professionals, individuals that provide a specific service and getting paid to do so. So, whether an entertainer/musician performs in a bar, restaurant, nite club, retirement community, assisted living center, or nursing home, he or she is still a professional in this regard. So, Donny asks the question "Just where is the arranger keyboard player headed in the future?" No one, absolutely no one, really knows.

All the best,

Gary

I think arrangers and those who play them will stay around. But things are changing as they always do. Roland is producing one arranger (or possibly one line) for the world market. The BK9 was the last of the BK series introduced and the first discontinued I believe. So it doesn't appear that Roland intends to make a true top of the line anymore. The Yamaha Genos will probably be more like the Montage with real time knobs and so on. This indicates that Yamaha knows they have to appeal to the younger customer and the older player is on the way out. But arrangers will still be around as they are popular outside of N. America.

Just thought I would post another vid of my friend, Panda and his ladies. Notice, Panda is playing his old, outdated, Yamaha PSR-3000 and making some beautiful music with the ladies, all of whom are accomplished musicians.

I feel that a Pro OMB will fade here in the US. The arranger keyboard will not be used as a main instrument, but just as another tool.

John C.

Maybe the next Yamaha arranger will be so unique and special that it will help spark arranger sales and provide a boost to OMBs. Maybe we’ll all get excited again, at least to hold everyone’s attention for the next 3 to 4 years. If the Genos does appear, who’s going to be the first to speculate or ask when the Genos 2 will be coming out?

And not just Roland aira series...
There is Korg Volca
Roland boutique
Analogue synthesizer revival
New affordable analogue synthesizers from Behringer
And offcourse ipad apps and DAW's

And if the youth really wants to learn and play an instrument..
They choose digital piano's
Quite affordable, like the Roland fp-90 which offers so much for its €1600
And if they want to step up, the RD-20000.. still only half the price of a Tyros

Strange thing is, they dont know what an arranger can do for them on stage
And then, does a piano player need styles? Or does a drumcomputer do the job?

Uhhh, I think we know the answer to that one. Just sayin'.



chas

let me add most "arranger uninformed" pro musicians I know dont want to play to a premade repetitious track aka "styles" and rather create from scratch their own songs the way they want them arranged using a sequencer & multitracking to get the results exactly how it needs to be ....yes and arranger makes the process easier to a point but the creation process starts with sequencing for the real pro and I can understand that...there is a definite "DIVIDE" between the two camps Arranger & workstation etc....and its not getting any closer as you can see by less and less companies manufacturing arrangers and kids today and musicians making music in so many other ways,...
everything has its time.

I've found that the musicians who inquire about my keyboard are generally amazed at the capabilities. They all assume I'm playing with "tracks", and often ask if I made them or bought them. They have no idea about arrangers.

Ditto!

Here lies a big problem as ignorance, knowledge, is certainly lacking and manufacturers need to start putting more efforts into the education to the end user of their products....

I think you have to accept the fact that no matter what the capabilities, the quality of the sounds, the ease of use, the practicality/utility, the excellence of the technology, the quality of the demos, or the massiveness of the marketing effort; a large percentage of people/musicians JUST DON'T LIKE THE CONCEPT (of an arranger), especially for professional use. Just a fact of life. Therefore, pursuing this endless debate is futile (and maybe even a little ridiculous).

JMO.

chas

Donny, you know as well as I do, the vast majority of the musicians on this, and most other forums, rarely take the instruction manual out of the Zip-Loc bag it arrived in with their arranger keyboard. It's a fact!

I still get a dozen emails every week from forum members on this and a couple other forums asking how to do something that is clearly spelled out in the manual. Of course, all of this takes time to learn, and like most folks today, that is the last thing they want in their world of instant gratification, I phones, touch screens, etc...

If it takes any effort other than pushing a single button or touching a single icon on a screen to get the results they want, they just won't put forth the effort. No one on the planet can learn all of the intricacies of a top end arranger keyboard in one year, let alone one hour, which some believe they can do. Those that take the time to learn each and every feature, which is indeed a rare individual, love their arranger keyboards.

Some just reject them because they believe it's not a real instrument, but in reality, it is as real as any guitar, piano, organ, flute, etc... You still need to master it as an instrument as well as master the operating systems and features. This, obviously, takes a lot of self discipline, which I've found that many individuals no longer seem to possess, especially the younger generation. In that respect, the arranger keyboard's future is dismal at best.

A good example of this occurred today when I took my 10 year old grandson fishing today. After catching only a single, small, white perch in 30 minutes of fishing, he was ready to go back to the dock where there was Wi-Fi available for free. He left everything for pop-pop to do as soon as we tied up, and within seconds, he had his cell phone out and staring intently at that tiny screen. Then he wanted pizza, to which I acquiesced, and was elated because he could live stream at the Italian restaurant where they had high speed wi-fi for free.

Bottom line - it's not the manufacturers fault that people have been dumbed down to the point where they cannot follow, simple, easy-to-read, instruction manuals provided with the equipment.

Gary

That statement is so so true Gary.....
and as the song says...........

Arranger keyboard is far from dying out.. I think what you will see is
arranger evolving into an hybrid workstation..
It already has advantages that a workstation keyboard user can only dream about.

Today's workstations are loop based as in pads to play pre recorded loops..

Everything takes more time to finish and have a useable product..

Very few "musicians" master loop recording, let alone sequencing...

Sequencing is an art that I believe less than 5 percent of musicians can get useable results..

You will always have commercial SMF's available..


Top models , even mid priced models of arranger keyboards can match any workstation in sound,
and I believe in features to make music.... Unfortunately most folks never learn to acheive this on either
keyboard..


Chas most musicians are clueless about arranger
keyboards...It isn't the fact they don't like the concept.. it is the fact they don't
undestand the concept , and know how to use it to their benefit..
I have seen this first hand, over and over again..

Going back 20-25 years.... belonging to "pro" Solo musician group.. Uncle Dave, Gary Murway and I

tried several times to illustrate the use and benefit of arranger keyboards.. We may as well
talked to the wall... I found the guys lazy and not interested in learning the "concept".

But they wonder why they don't get the goood jobs...

Uncle Dave and Gary Murway are two success stories as musicians that use technology.

I can't state enough the arranger is a musical tool, that can be used in many ways
as a stage instrument.. It will out shine a workstation in speed and funtions.

Studio wise it will out shine a workstation again..


The problem has always been awareness when it comes to arrangers...
Poorly or non trained sales people (that are brainwashed too..that the arranger is non professional).

Poor representation in Box stores...only a handfull mom /pop shops represent the lines.

AS for the future.... I think the best days are ahead for arranger keyboards.... we probably
won't call them arrangers, but some hybrid name..

Even today Roland has the capabilities to use audio loops designated to keys...
How far do you think they are to assignment of audio loops to arranger/style parts?

Workstations have been struggling for years using Pads for this concept..
Trouble is ..too much work for little results..

If you find a "musician" using a workstation live Solo.... you can bet they are using commercial SMF's

....but qualified players ARE!



My guess is they're also intimidated by an arranger keyboard because of it's complexity. If it looks complicated, sounds complicated, and feels complicated, then..........it must be COMPLICATED!

Chas said in another post something like "a song is good if it doesn't cause you to think!" Same with arranger keyboards. People are brain-dead nowadays....couldn't be told (and don't want to be told) how to boil an egg even.




I'll bet they're the same guys who I see in a mile long parade of vehicles at the drive-in window at McDonald's. Too darn lazy to exit their car and walk into the place where the counter is completely empty.





Fran, are you sure you don't want to re-think your last comment now? You just gave the strongest argument as to why arrangers will eventually fade into oblivion....probably along with workstations and TV remote controls and cars that do the driving for you.

The problem the arranger keyboard has with professionals, (And always has had) is that it developed from the easy play features of the home organ, (It’s nothing more than a sophisticated version of that) and easy play doesn’t go down well with pro musicians.
Ironically easy play is also one of the reasons for the demise of the home organ (Or organ in general, although we are getting a bit of a comeback) in that why would anyone pay a lot of money for a 2 manual and pedal organ, then have to learn to play it (including left hand, swell and bass pedals) when you can buy a cheap single manual instrument where you can just push a button and everything is done for you, (Hold a few chords and just play the melody) with no reason to learn left hand, bass pedals & swell.
Things have changed over the years, but you are still limited to what you can play live on an arranger, hence the reason users keep clamouring after new orchestrated styles, as it’s not possible to play your own backing, bass lines etc. on an arranger live. (Unless of course you do like a lot of arranger users are now doing by adding bass pedals and/or a 2nd manual so that they can start playing live again)
Whichever way it goes, the arranger keyboard will survive (Probably in a similar form it is today) just like organs have, (Although organs seem to be on the up with manufactures introducing new models) they will just be at a more subdued level.

Bill

The biggest problem, is the fact that there is no easy way to create song specific user styles.. altough Yamaha has probably user created styles for all amd everything..

Anyway... if you want a pro version of what arrangers do (styles) you should have a look at the latest feature of the SD9 pro....


A single track in a style is nothing different from a sequenced that gets transposed based on the notes played... actually it isnt all that different from the arpeggio's created in the motif or montage.. altough they still have some limitations like a limit of 16 different notes..

Montage people are allready using their Montage in a way we recognise as playing styles.. just a little different.. more basic.. with the popularity of the Motif/Montage range and its advanced arps.. i think its just another step away to step up to a system even more akin to styles... if they crossbreed ableton lives clip launching with Style tracks, everyone will love it... for what it is and nit recognise how close it comes to styles... again i point out to the Ketron SD9 luanchpads, as this is what they are trying to do...



Combine this with a feature that lets you be creative in creating your own stuff.. and you have the perfect tool for pro live use...very flexible, witouth the simplification and limitations of the 4 varriation arranger styles.. yet essencially the same as those styles..

I think i would becready for that step, however, most here wont, because they to much love the easy accesibility of the current style format... i really think SD9 is on the right track in improving styles...

An arranger keyboard was designed to do a certain job for certain types of music.

“I think what you will see is
arranger evolving into an hybrid workstation” (Fran)

I agree, but it will no longer be an arranger as we know it; they will probably give the hybrid a different name. The workstation is closer to what is needed for today’s music.

With all this talk I can’t wait until I get the Pa4x upgrade so I can add the new stuff into my songs.
John C.

It is inevitable that the two workstation/arranger come together in some fashion to satisfy both older and modern music in so many ways to create it and perform it, ....then I could see a $5000.00+ price tag as long as after purchase they give for free OS updates of some kind for all to use. The time has come for change lets all hope this new journey helps us all make fantastic music using a keyboard.

"The biggest problem, is the fact that there is no easy way to create song specific user styles"

Bachus, have you tried the midi-to-style converter after the update on the PA4X? If you have a good midi file, it's quick and easy to make a pretty good style. Yes, you usually need to do some "tweaking" after the conversion, but it's easy to do...adjust some style part volumes, maybe change to factory sounds from GM sounds...
I'm personally a little leery of using too many song-specific styles. I can nearly always find a style that will work, then play the intro and signature riffs myself. That way you stay true to the song, but still "make it your own".

If a New arranger comes out that allows the player to make their own styles very very easily it would be a big hit for sure and I mean very easily.....

I think it's about as easy as it's going to get, because, as you know, making styles is very complicated. I used to make a lot of them when they weren't so readily available, but I was doing drums, bass and a simple piano and/or guitar strum of some kind. It still took a lot of time to get it right. As I recall, the Technics arrangers had an excellent style creation feature. And I can remember converting some Roland styles to Technics, on board. Don't remember the details though.

Yes i have, with varying results... most of the time i get two really usefull variations, which is enough for a style to be usefull..

But then in order to use that feature, one would have to create a high quallity midi file.. unless like me you copy files from the web, which would be a little unfair for a performing musician.. unless he buys them..


My comments where aimed at creating styles from scratch...


Next to Korg, also the Ketron SD9 should get a nomination for being able te create their own styles... their interface for copying parts between styles is incredible...

That's what I thought to when I saw this topic. Here in the USA I've only seen a few guys performing in public arrangers with auto accompaniment. Just from my observations from the last few years, when I hear solo or duo, they are playing live without tracks or drum machines. Usually guitar players, sometimes with a loop pedal. The acoustic, organic," unplugged" sound seems to be what general expectation is for a solo/duo act.

Bachus wrote: "...if they crossbreed ableton lives clip launching with Style tracks, everyone will love it... for what it is and nit recognise how close it comes to styles... again i point out to the Ketron SD9 luanchpads, as this is what they are trying to do..."

Bachus, doesn't the Casio MZ-X500 also purport to have this ability? I haven't seen one in person and I know the quality / keybed isn't the greatest. But I'm pretty sure I read on here that it has this feature , and represents a huge step toward the arranger-workstation hybrid everyone's been waiting for.

When we start creating or editing styles we expose who we are – it becomes personal.

I trashed 90% of the styles I created. But I have kept most of the styles that I have edited. I need to edit a style to hear what is in my head.

John C.