Would a Worldwide SURVEY make the PERFECT Arranger Keyboard?

Here's my thoughts,......many players are looking for their perfect thing which undoubtedly it doesn't exist at this point, but can we come very close to satisfying the masses? Why not if a manufacturer put out a worldwide arranger keyboard survey questioner to have players check off all the features they would like to see & then at the end have a comment section for new things and ideas,......
Then after a six month period we they can learn, decipher, investigate, experiment, and most of all really get a worldwide picture of possibly what the next almost perfect arranger keyboard would be to satisfy many many people in may ways and in turn sell a lot of units too instead of the rehashing of older models, parts, and on & on ...... if not a survey of some kind what do you think would bring us closer to the perfect arranger kb in some way, or is it too late?

Thoughts?

Personally, I think there would be TOO MANY features requested by users to put in one box and make it affordable...
A few years ago on this board I offered the idea that the way to satisfy users would be to make the AKB 'Menu Driven' in that there would be a basic model that is sold and a list of options that the user would select on-line to D/L to the keyboard ...
But this might hinder sales of 'new' models which the manufacturers would not want ...

Tony of course they could never put all the requests into the kb but they could get a good idea which direction to go in future releases if at all by asking the REAL players not some bunch of R&D people which release after release seem to not get it right.. ....

It may well be that such a flood of requests would come in from Baltic, Middle Eastern and Asian areas, where the bulk of arrangers are presently sold, that our comparatively minor Western market would be squeezed out altogether. So it might be a case of 'be careful what you wish for'.

All the better to hear from everyone so more then one model can be created for different markets and in turn better the whole KB's features all around for whatever needs it may be.....
there has to be a happy medium.

If you make it too 'tech-heavy', those buyers who simply want to 'sit down and play' (and that makes up the majority of 'home players' who, in turn, make up the majority of Arranger players) will reject it. If you over-simplify it, everyone else will reject it. The point is; you will NEVER, EVER, please everybody, or even ALMOST everybody. Another thing, what you are suggesting would mean the end of creativity. If you create the 'perfect' arranger (or anything else), then that's the end of the line for that item; no future upgrades, no further technological advances......after all, you can't improve on perfection...right? And, as someone already pointed out, what would be the incentive for a manufacturer to produce one? One and done, not a great marketing plan (unless they plan to become just a 'parts' company ).

Of course, this is good for a quick Saturday afternoon excursion into 'what if' land. Oh, one other thing. Since the essence of an arranger keyboard is it's styles, and everyone had access to the same ones (in our perfect one-keyboard world), wouldn't there be an awful lot of music sounding an awful lot alike? I'm guessing a lot more people would be dusting off that old acoustic piano or guitar.

BTW, there already IS a perfect arranger for everybody; it's called YOUR BRAIN. You just have to figure out which 'buttons' to push, which 'sliders' to slide, and which knobs to twist.

Just another opinion.

chas

DITTO!

There is no such thing as a perfect arranger...
Everyone has different wants and needs...

However, there is a thing like "my" perfect arranger
Recently i made a list of 10 features i would love to see in my perfect keyboard..
Arranger features only being one of the 10 wishes

- 8 preferably 9 sliders, with lights
- 8 encoders, limitless free programmable with lights
- 16 (drum)pads, programmable with several colors of lights
- 88 keys light piano action with escapement,
- aftertouch, modulation wheels/stick, and other realtime controlls
- build in high quallity sound engine(s)
- high end arpagiator/karma
- arranger styles and multipads and build in sequencer
- support for DAW comtrol and VST integration like VIP or NKS
- Audio over USB in and out

Now i am mapping these features on a whole list of keyboards to see which one comes closest... none of them come close to my wishlist

http://keyszone.boards.net/thread/280/search-perfect-fit


Not even a combo of an 88 keys instrument with an arranger module would come close to perfect...altough i still have to map the non 88 key arrangers... featurewise, i guess a combination of Montage with ketron sd40 would be best fit...



I dont think i will ever see a perfect fit keyboard, unless i start designing one myself... arduin processor for the controll surface, windows 10, varranger, bitwig, gigperformer... could get me quite far... i think i do have the skills to make it work

But then, it would cost me many 100's or even 1000's of hours designing, and thats time i would much rather spend making music ...

How about the customer being able to choose the different sound groups, like strings, brass, pianos, etc... and features, and either the manufacturer or seller, or perhaps, the customer downloads all these different things he wants. And voila! The ultimate tailor-made keyboard.

I got this idea from the early 1960s, when my father ordered a brand new car. In those days, he was able to tell the dealer exactly what he wanted, and a while later, the manufacturer would deliver the car to the dealer for my father to pick up. Nowadays, customers can simply download or activate all the sounds and features he wants directly from the manufacturer's website. Of course, the more sounds and features he adds, the more he pays. In other words, the hardware stays the same, but the software is personalized. And in the future, if he wants to add more, he's able to do so. Just an idea.

Perfect is a stretch,.......BETTER then what we have is more of a probability,.....I know they are reading this thread so keep the ideas coming, eg: "I WISH THERE WAS"????????? etc, etc, ......one persons ideas won't do it but, if they see a trend and repetitious request for certain things and see there is a want and need worldwide by players and for what reasons just maybe some things will appear in future units for pros and home players alike...as pretty much we are talking Yamaha or KORG & even possibility Ketron, unless some others want to join in the mix from who knows where...

Ketron (AJ) definately is listening, because a feature i proposed on the ketron boards (of synthzone) is being added to the sd9 pro as we speak..

Ketron italy may not be communicating directly with us, but they are listening to what we say...

Actually this is how the nord stage works... you can empty it... and add exactly those samples you want from their huge library....

Also in Korg instruments, you can change the factory sounds if you want to.... creting a setup like you want...

However, with arrangers a set up like the Nord this is much harder to archieve, as styles asume certain sounds are available... thats why the high end keyboards all have user sounds and user styles... thats the part where you create your very own car... when you compare that to your fathers car, you can drive around in a different color car, any moment you want...

Most car buyers like arranger players have little imagination, and while it is good to get their opinions so as not to make a big boo boo, (The T5 is a classic case of this) there will be no innovation, just an amalgamation of what is already out there.

Manufactures R & D must come out with new features to move the game forward, and providing they are developed to fruition with musicians, then instruments will move forward. (Hence there will never be a perfect or optimum instrument)

All the requests made for an arranger are already out there, (There is nothing new or forward thinking been added in this discussion) they have just not yet been combined.

In the old days if an instrument didn’t have something, a lot of users designed and built their own, (Most of which manufactures added to their instruments when they saw the potential) obviously, modern technology reduces the chance of current users to design via hardware, due to the specialist equipment needed to build it, however, as most instruments are based around a computer, (And as computers are cheap, and an instrument communication standard is available) then you can build (Code) it into software for whatever feature you want. (If it looks good manufactures will add it to their instruments just like they did in the old days)

The big problem these days, is that everybody moans if a manufacture doesn’t provide something, but very few are prepared to get off their backsides (Butt) and do something about it, hence you will never get what you want.

In life, to get what you want, you must do it yourself, as no one will do it for you, so stop moaning and get doing.

Bill

IN MY OPINION, the better the player, the less the moaning and groaning about (missing) features. People always want to enhance their performances; some do it by trying to improve their playing skills and others, by looking for features on their instrument that will hide their playing deficiencies.....and then there is the pure 'techno-geek' that just plain likes anything with a knob or button on it, but they are usually more interested in the technology than the actual music. Let's face it, the performances we have been most impressed by (say Marco Parisi) has much, MUCH more to do with the player than the instrument. We're most impressed by guys (or gals) that would sound good on a washboard.

On the other hand (and in all fairness), once you enter into the world of electronic instruments, advancements in technology are always going to play a role. Even with the mighty Hammond organ, a 'Jimmy Smith' didn't happen until PERCUSSION (and a Leslie) was added. So yes, there is nothing on this green earth that can't be improved upon in some way, nor should we ever stop pushing the boundaries of technology to do things we could not otherwise do. I just don't think technology should ever be used as a SUBSTITUTE for creativity and craftsmanship. In other words, it should always be about YOU, not your super-duper, feature-laden instrument. JMO.

chas

so in the vein of NOT drifting off the original topic, what would be some of your reasonable improvements for arranger keyboards that we don't have now and WHY?

In reality, added features will not likely increase sales worldwide. Keep in mind that on average, players, both home and pro, use less than 10 pecent of the onboard features. By and large, players, in general, want to turn the keyboard on, touch something with a known song title, which automatically does pretty much everything. Players, both home and pro, really could care less about learning the entire operating system, let alone programming styles and right hand voices. Hell, most folks are totally confused by something as technologically simple as creating a registration. Many years ago, I wrote a very detailed, step by step set of instructions about registrations, but the questions continue to come to my email on a daily basis about that very subject.

The basis of an arranger keyboard is all about styles - the more there are and the more diverse there are, onboard, the happier the consumer. On the PSR Tutorial site, the most requested item is specific styles for specific songs. Fortunately, there are individuals on that site that are very, very adept at creating or modifying styles from scratch that provide thousands upon thousands of Yamaha styles that are very song specific, thus there are lots of happy campers there, particularly on the styles segment of that forum. Ironically, there is usually a great style already in your keyboard that will fit just about any song written and performed. As Chas said, all you need to do is use your mind to make it all come together. All of the other components are already there, at your fingertips.

Gary

Some people just want a car that takes them from a to b, some people want the best car they can afford and then even some more....

Who is the best driver?

All right then,
I'll get it back on topic ...
As Gary said most of us want good styles.
I think we can improve a lot in that department to make them more realistic and less repetitive.
The PSR-8000 had a simple groove feature that added some riffs or something to the style. It was great.
Having some sort of intelligent style engine with groove and other features would it make much more interesting.
Each style then could be used in different ways.
I use the style assembly feature a lot, but that feature could be improved upon to by making it easier to copy and paste whole sections etc.
I think just styles alone could be a topic in it self ...
Eric

ok then why the easy way out shouldn't they improve the way styles can be created, edited, altered, mixed & matched, in an easier understandable way to improve what methods are UNDERUSED by so many now since in fact an arranger kb is style driven in the first place.

Back in the early '90s my technics kn1000 had a 'dynamic arrangement' button that changed the arrangement based on the velocity of the playing ... I don't know why they had to eliminate ​that ...

Donny, there are many players (probably the majority) who are TOTALLY not interested in those things and never will be, no matter how easy you make it. There are simply two kinds of players; those who want to get down to the nitty gritty and those that want to stay as far away from the nitty gritty as possible. You can't change human nature. Some folks value the journey, others just want to get there (as quickly and as easily as possible).

chas

I guess its another known Tony same as why Technics is gone now also?

Maybe you cant change human nature BUT humans can be taught new things after all we are very intelligent species you just have to be shown how, instructional videos especially on your tube should be the norm for any and all features of a product ...just watch and learn.

As far as I remember, KN3000 had the DynamicAccomp too, but sadly with KN5000 it was gone.
Great feature that added a more variation and live feeling to the performances just by different press by the left hand chords/keys.
Smoother than the fillins, and several variations for each time used and related of how hard keys been pressed.
Almost as a "live band".

I think Ketron has something similar.

You guys just own the wrong keyboard

I already own the perfect keyboard, that needs no improvements for me..

Sounds, outputs, routing effects, mic and harmonizer, expansion board , key feel and range, touchscreen and buttons, sliders..
drawbar organ, pedal options, sequencer, and many menu features like singer key selector for SMF play, and dynamic arranger control..

I am serious, there is not a single thing that I want improved..(yes it is the G70)..

Now my EA7 is another story.. I would like the keybed from the G70...and the touch screen from the G70..and the harmonizer from the G70...and the drawbar organ from the G70

The combination of the G70 and EA7, leaves nothing to be desired..

Like I said ..I already own the best



Want I want most of all is a keyboard that will let me play the way I want...and the G70 does that...it is a players keyboard.

I love arranger keyboards –Fact!

You cannot change what is happening. Movies have changed – TV has changed – They not only use four letter words on TV you can hit Captions and they spell it for you.

We will always have some form of an Arranger keyboard, but it had its day, it is leaving.

Opinion, John C.

Too heavy 10 years ago; still too heavy!
PA4X has everything I need and much more. And I can still lift it!

First of, i am quite happy with where styles and multipads currently are .. However, i think arranger capabillities are only one of the features i want to see in the totl workstation.. but the actuall quallity of the styles in the high end keyboards is very good..

To make acompaniments more dynamic, i think you need to use tools like karma or the high end montage arps.. they are much much more dynamic in nature then the static style acompaniments.. its good to see that yamaha has realised so and added some to the psr-s series. But thats only a small beginning... in the end, i would want the full set of montage arps and other tools in my arranger.. in the end, it would be better to have styles in the montage then to add a montage to the arranger..as probably its not something many arranger players would use...

Then there is the form of the arranger styles... 4 var's, 4 fills, intro ending... when you look at the upcomming Ketron SD9 pro there is a feature that allows you to create a much more flexible arrangement backing by freely combining multipads and style parts.. it might take some getting used to.. but in creating your own performances, this is a tool of the future, much more flexible then standard styles... and yet the styles for easy access and playing along are still there..

Another feature, that could need some attention is the style creation, the Ketron instruments shine where it comes to this, they have the best interface that lets you combine different style parts easilly into new styles... it can be done on the pa4x and even the tyros, but the interface on the ketrons is much more suited for easy access...

And then there is the sound engine of the arrangers... only Korg works really well for me, as it has the most onboard freedom for edditing... but in the end i would love to see more features in all of them for real time edditing sounds and effects... encoders for filter cutoff, easy access to envelopes.. and lfo's .. in my view, having 8 sounds instead of 3 or 4 and being able to acces them trough the sliders and freely assigning them to the keybed would be a step forward..


But then, its obvious, i want to take arranger styles and multipads into workstation land... workstations are different... because the most important feature of arrangers is easy access, sit and play, ... but is it wrong to have an easy access upper layer, but have incredible depth underneeth?


Personally i am quite happy with current days style quallity ajd sound quallity of the top arrangers..... but not so much with the tolls to access that potential..

Bachus, keep in mind that you are a very talented and rare individual, a one in a million kind of person. consequently, because of your wonderful abilities and their rarity among arranger keyboard players, it would be very unlikely that any manufacturer would design an arranger/workstation around your needs. Consequently, in situations such as yours, you will likely have to go the software route and either design your own programs, or find someone who has already designed this type of software to fit your technological constraints. Like most retail products, arranger keyboards are pretty much designed for the masses - not individuals. That's what keeps them in business, just like any other product being sold to a general market.

Good luck,

Gary

/sarcasme off

Bachus, believe me, I was not being sarcastic. I sincerely believe you are very talented and technologically proficient in the world of music.

Gary

Then i will take that as a compliment... and yes i wish i was as confident in my musical skills as in my technical skills.... but then music is about having joy with what you do... and i love every minute of my musical journey...


And yes i realise that my perfect setup will be a multiple part one... 88 key worlstation, arranger module, laptop... currently playing to long on the arranger in the uppar postions gets me fatigued to fast...


But in the end Garry, its all about enjoying yourself... and others with the music you make...

Yes KETRON does have DYNAMIC Arranger features listed above ... since SD5, Audya and now SD7/SD9Pro.

Thanks.

AJ

In the end arrangers are about playing music with a backing...

You can use :
- sequencers/audio players
- arranger styles/multipads
- arpegiators
To create a backing

Espescially in the sequencer department, most arrangers are still quite basic...
Its enough for straight replaying
But its not the musical tool, more advanced sequencers offers.

Also advanced arpeggiators, could add a lot more depth..

I made an overview of most options available in hard and sotware overhere.

http://keyszone.boards.net/thread/294/backings?page=1&scrollTo=464

I would love to believe you...

However i have yet to see proof of these dynamics...
I dont think they are of the magnitude people are expecting to see..

Could you link us, or create us an example of these dynamics?

The problem, who is going to teach the masses to use any of these detailed sequencer features if at all mentioned? ....that's where the problem lies, and the fact that there is just too many choices and options to create music in other ways, besides repetitive style based,....that's why advanced NEW conventional arrangers are slowing down to a crawl..I wish it wasn't so but it is..we probably wont be around when kids say
"hey remember those things back in the day called arranger keyboards?"

True...


Thats why i am asking to port the arranger features to a workstation.... i do understand, they are way to much for the average arranger user...

Another option is to add many of these features trough an easy understandable ipad app, if yamaha created such an ipad app, they could use the psr/tyros series sequencer for new things.. you could have for example 8 more multipads and 8 arpeggio's using the sounds of an empty song in the sequencer..

Its not the feature that makes things hard to understand, its the implementation...
But everyone could understand an ipad app, with 16 major pads, which could be used to switch more multipads, arpeggio's for left and right hand or even extra sounds for R1 on... as long as you are not playing a song along the style... you would have extra options... you could use simple colors to identify what content is behind a button/pad on the ipad app...
not that people would allways use these "extra" ipad features they would be very situational.. now what i asumed are only some simple features... you could also abuse the sheer processor power of an ipad to do more advanced and dynamic things...like real time cc changes based on calculations and a mathemeicall model of a bass or guitar player making the bass much much more dynamic based on your playing style..

What i am saying, advanced results do not require higher mathematics and understanding of a 23th century interface... its one of the things yamaha is king at, taking high tech features and making them accesible to normal musicians..

Donny needs a new hobby, now that he's not playing out as much! Thoughts?
... painting, pottery, knitting, basket weaving, power walking ...

Designing the perfect arranger would be a start.

Alligator wrestler, snake charmer, fortune teller, lion tamer, circus clown (already has chicken hat), Hot air ballooning, volunteer fireman, surrogate keyboard shopper for busy synthzoners, alter boy, YouTube researcher, ....actually, knitting is good.

chas

HAHA! Knitting!
(Pee Wee Hermann)