Having called sick from work, or just not being able to go today, and no keyboard around, i had to much time at my hands and this is what i ended up doing. Comparing the Pa4x to the T5..
PA4x vs TYROS5 differences

-Weight 16,3 vs 16kg Tyros is slightly lighter ….. +1T
-touchscreen vs non touch ….. +1K
-Graphics Tyros screen looks much much better …..+1T
-Soundsource EDS with DNC vs AWM2 with SA1 (T5 also has SA2 and Ensemble)….. +2T
-Virtuall drawbar organ vs Organworld….. +1T
-piano moddeling with string resonance and damper resonance on Korg only +1K
-5,1 GB PCM samples vs 760 MB….. +1K
-400 Mb vs 2GB max user samples ….. +1T
-10 effects vs 9+3 effects (also T5 has many more effects types) ….. +1T
-Max audio mastering engine only on Korg …..+1K
-Guitar mode 2 vs Megavoices(guitar mode 2 is playable, Mega voices are versatile)Draw
-Styleformats (Yamaha has Session, freeplay and audio styles)….. +1T
-Korg has more buttons like for bass inversion and tempo lock…. +1K
-Korg has Chord sequencer….. +1K
-Duall player vs single player ….. +1K
-Songbook vs Music finder ….. +1K
-Korg has ribbon, more sliders and half damper pedal ….. +1K
-Deep edditabillity vs basic edditing ….. +1K
-TC Helicon Vocalist vs VH2 ….. +1K

So far its PA4x=10 vs Tyros5=7 (not that these numbers mean anything)


so anyone else has some other differences that can be added to the list?

My vote is TYROS 5

It’s always good to keep busy.

Yamaha Arrangers still use AWM1 (Like the Electones) only the Workstations use AWM2.
The main articulations on the SA2 voices relate to the attack and decay phases (There are also other effects that are incorporated, but not directly unique to SA2) whereas SA1 concentrated on the Attack phase. (This is the reason you only have 2 Art buttons)

The Korg DNC has 3 articulation controls and is much more flexible than the T5 Art buttons. (The SA/SA2 has the advantage that everything is programmed into the voices, (Something I hate on a keyboard as it takes much longer to edit) whereas the DNC effects allow you to do more your own thing, (My preference) and it is purely personal choice as to which you prefer)

Although the Korg is a little heavier, it is more substantially built than the Yamaha which depending on its use may make a difference. (As arrangers are designed for the home hobby market super strong is of little relevance due to the fact that home players usually upgrade almost as much as they change their socks, compared to pro users who tend to keep their equipment for centuries)

The T5 ensemble section is good, however apart from the Classic and theatre organ, the rest of organ world is limited, having little in common with the instruments that they are supposed to emulate. (If you particularly want Hammond emulation then the Korg wins hands down)

In the end though, there is more to an arranger than just sounds and features, and the only way to see which suits you is to actually play them live.

Hopefully the above will give you something else to ponder over.

Bill

I choose Korg, but when I bought the PA3x a few years ago I paid only 2600 Euro. Now the PA4X is about 3500 Euro that's 900 Euro more.

Finally a worthy comparison between two great TOTL arrangers. Nice unbiased comparison list so far. Comes down to what fits your needs better. Even comparable price wise, but Korg does have two years more of research and development added to the PA4X.

Marcus

Korg has way more assignable sliders and knobs.
The vocal harmonizer is miles better than Yamaha.
The drum kits, with the exception of audio ones, are much more realistic.
I find the gimmicks on many of the Yamaha guitar sounds put stuff in at the wrong times. I prefer to do it myself.
Korg has the EC5 multi foot control which is light in weight, inexpensive and totally programmable. Yamaha's only option is the very expensive, very heavy, MFC10. The Tyros does have 3 programmable foot pedals, but the PSRs only 2.
I of course have not played a PA4X, but the 3X, although similar in weight to Tyros, is a much more manageable size, and is far easier to lift off the stand, put in bag and transport.
I would not use the organ world and ensemble sections, although I can see where many might. I want to sound like a small combo, not an orchestra or movie score, or most of all a big organ.
There are positives on each side I'm sure we're overlooking, but at least for me it's an easy choice. And isn't it wonderful we have so many great choices!!

Nice summery Bachus.

Thing is we still don't know much about new pa4x. I don't even know what a hell is Korg doing with this launch. Still no videos, not enough audios demos, not enough info about specs. Many questions but no answers. Really bad launch by Korg. Or is still just a teaser, we will see.

I think they are still teasing to a degree. At least it didn't start six months ago. I truly hope they don't release it before most of the bugs are found and corrected.

Yamaha has made some crazy introductions as well, but ultimate made great demo videos. Previous Tyros models had puzzle pieces slowly revealed up to the launch. Controversial leaked videos, and the debacle of the YEM and Voice Creator with the Tyros 5, however corrected over time.

The Korg PA4X has a great feature list and specs. Sure to be a winner. Retailers and users will eventually produce demos, but some real good Korg video demos would be nice, especially for those interested in purchasing.

Marcus

So Don you like Tyros 5...lol

Bill there is no AWM1 or 2 anymore, there just is AWM, an ever growing synthesis engine, T5 is state of the art, Motifs engine is comparable to T3. Tyros has grown further..( tough Motif is much more editable)

yamaha is comtinously advancing the AWM engine, they keep adding more and more virtuall stuff to it. AEM, EAM, SCM, RDM, VAM, AFM,.. All are types of virtualisation added to the The AWM synthesis engine tahts kind of modular, so every instrument gets the things it requires, SCM and RDM for pianos, and VAM and AFM for upcomming synths.. Combining samples and virtuall synthesis engines..

Seems there is also a new advanced drum system on pa4x called : Natural Ambience Drums Sound

And yes, for what i have heared so far, its another point for Korg, the drums sound just really good..

Waiting to see how this Midi-to-Style conversion thingy works out. Hoping it's some sort of 'magic bullet'.

I don't expect too much from that. Way too many elements involved in making good styles. I'm sure it will work fine for simpler songs though. Hope I'm wrong and they have discovered something great, but I suspect it will be similar to removing vocals from MP3s, sketchy at best.

Sure I like it. Not enough to buy it instead of either Korg or Ketron though. I notice you don't have one either. Is it because of the size and weight by chance?

But Bachus, you mentioned you only used the Kronos piano programs in the end and everything else from Tyros. Did you feel other Kronos sounds were inferior to Tyros or was it just a matter of convenience? The PA-4X sounds will certainly be derived from Kronos in many cases.
Did you use expansion sounds in the Kronos? I think in case of strings for example, the expansions are much better than the standard PCM sounds.

Remember there is a new Yamaha (Tyros?) in the works and my bet is it will be a super keyboard. I certainly will wait for Yamaha to come out with it. Lloyd

I had a Tyros 2 for a while and not that it didnt sound good, its just like T3,4,5, it's more real estate then I need to gig with,.......also, I can do and sound just as good with the S-series units no doubt like the S950 in my hands.
If I was a "home player" yes I would have a T5 for sure as to me Yamaha is the one to beat .......
however the Tilt display is the only thing I'd like to see on the S-series units,...... VH I don't use anymore with style play it's just too "gimmicky" no matter Yamaha, Korg, Ketron, or what ever,.....so I dropped it from style play with the KB no need for it,.......I do use it on my custom recorded backing tracks that I play with to achieve the parts that I want in MY arrangements. My last two KB moves sadly as you know were small mistakes & I learned some pretty good lessons the hard way. But now I'm back in action with some great gear that I'm happy with and it sounds totally amazing all around.

Have a look at the tone generation used in these 2 links

Bill

T5

Motif

Tyros has registration bank buttons
actual dedicated pitch and modulation wheel
dedicated style/track part mute buttons

some of these features which are non existent to an extent in the korg are very important to some.

Tyros also loads up and is playable within 5 seconds
my PA3x takes about 2 minutes (curious to know how long the PA4x will take)

I quote from this post.. http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/forum/Keyboards/acapella-18/341405-


AWM and AWM2 are just marketing names - when Yamaha switched to 16-bit samples in 1992, they decided to increase the "version" at some point, but any other significant changes since then (such as introduction of sample compression in 1997 or 8 oscillators in 2007) went without such an increase. You can regard them as a collection of features like the number of oscillators/LFOs/EGs, the structure of the effect block etc. - I'm not even sure if these were changed in transition from AWM to AWM2.

At some point Yamaha started reffering to AWM2 as simply AWM. Therefore all today's AWM = AWM2

or in this document from Yamaha itselves it says :

AWM2: AWM is Advanced Wave Memory
and is Yamaha’s proprietary method of
storing PCM sampled data. The latest
version is AWM2 – all references to AWM
are AWM2.

And this is old information advancement of the AWM synthesis standard advanced hugely under the hood... and currently all their instruments have their 8 oscilator(elements) voices inside the big difference between Motif and Tyros is how you edit them, and offcourse the much newer Tyros 5 got a lot of the advanced features not in the Motif XF, which still has the old AWM engine of the XS, which is over 8 years old now.



I allways held your opinions in high regards, but on this topic it seems your "Anti Yamaha vision" has blinded you so much that you are proclaiming nonsense about the Tyros 5 AWM engine.


AWM is currently one of the most advanced sound engines availalbe in hardware with only Roland and Wersi OAX(which actually is VST technollogy as we both know) rivalling it. We have to see where the PA4xs EDS engine ends. it seems more advanced then the HD engine in teh Kronos. (the Kronos however has 9 engines to make up for that, which makes it still the most advanced instrument)

I think what Korg did to STS in the PA4x can probably replace how i use the T5 registration buttons, its a quite advanced system.

i have both the wheels of T5 and the joystick and ribbon of the PA4x (on my Kronos) they just work different, but the PA4x are freely assignable, its just a matter of getting used to.. but in this case i think the PA4x has more to offer. In the end, the best combination is having both, the wheels on T5 and another board with the joystick and ribbon

And about the mute buttons, i think thats where Korgs touchscreen inteface comes in handy, the style track mute buttons are available trough the touchscreen

Personally i would love to see the ACMP button on T5 being replaced by 3 buttons.. DRUMS BASS and ACMP... allowing for real time swithcong on and off Drums bass and the rest of the ACMP channels. touching a single time toggles the swithc, touching two times in quick concession switches the others off and makes it solo.. Also the bass inversion and hold tempo buttons on Korg are very usefull

This is whay i prefer to do when playing...

Actually the row of assignable sliders on Korg is pre-set (in the second position) for individual style parts. Or as noted, you can use the touch screen.

Not at all, 99% of arranger players (Including I suspect most on here) have no interest in the sound engine, they just reference to what they see in the spec sheets, which is the way I approached it. (It’s the way most people see it therefore is the most logical to use)

It has always been the case that the sound engine in a manufactures pro keyboards has been more advanced than the arranger side, which has concentrated on the easy play side of things, (Styles etc.) which most home hobby players want.

What the Yamaha arranger designers did however (This goes way back to the Tyros 2 days) was to take the (So called) inferior arranger sound engine and utilised it in a way that allowed an OOTB experience that quite literally shocked the pro side designers, (And Yamahas pro side has been playing catch up ever since) hence it became a very popular instrument.

The problem with the Yamaha approach however, is that it is very hard work to make it sound individual, (Listen to pretty much all Yamaha arranger players and they all sound the same) which is not what everybody wants as it’s the equivalent of having an elephant around your neck, (This is why I would never consider a Yamaha arranger for my own personal use) as you hear the technology not the player.

As I have always said, it is a personal experience, and only by playing the instrument yourself will you know if it is for you or not. In addition if you check my posts I have always taken my hat off to the Yamaha Arranger designers for what they have achieved with limited resources.

Since Yamaha bought Steinberg a number of years ago, I am surprised they have not incorporated a lot of Steinberg know how in their keyboard products, as when Steinberg bought out their Halion Sonic VST (Which replaced their previous Hypersonic VST (The sound engine now used for sound production in all Wersi instruments since 2005) which is an advanced sound engine in itself) most of the new sounds were programmed by the Motif designers. (Perhaps the Motif replacements will now get the Steinberg technology incorporated into them)

Hope this clarifies my position

Bill

H

What???? I guess if two Yamaha players used the same default style and voices with roughly the same EQ, someone could guess that they were playing a Yamaha arranger.

My approach was to find an arranger with the quality sounds and features to help me create my arrangements, compositions, custom styles, custom drum kits, and perform live. There is absolutely no similarities to any default material from another Tyros 5 except for the Yamaha quality, realism, and authenticity to the emulated instrument voices I am using.

So Yamaha only has this issue. Two Korg players or two Ketron arranger players are impossible to differentiate because no technology is showing through, only their playing skill and individualism making it impossible to tell what non-Yamaha brand the arranger player is using.

Wonderful. I'll keep this is mind when the Tyros 6 comes out.

Marcus

I think this problem of not sounding very individual is inevitable with every arranger if you mostly play styles, even worse with preset intros and endings. It's probably not a specific Tyros problem. But as the Tyros is so widespread, it becomes especially evident with this instrument.
It certainly makes it more individual to combine the arranger sounds with a second instrument, e.g.a module from a different manufacturer (Integra, SonicCell with SRX boards, Ketron), also to play the bass on a bass pedal.
If you play on a synth workstation like MoXF, Motif or even Kronos with flash memory, program some voices of your own with you own combination of samples, and install your own choice of third-party libraries on the flash board, it also gets individual of course.

U
Yes, very reasonable explanation. In my case I wanted to deal with only one arranger and one of the best quality voices, and the Tyros 5 works for me, plus I know the OS and previous work would be compatible or upgradable with the next Yamaha arranger.

If Yamaha quit making arrangers, I would be quite happy with the new PA4X, but I would have a lot of work learning the Korg OS and converting my Yamaha stuff.

I love your idea of burglar proofing your musical equipment. Reminds me of a scene from the Robocop movie.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7U4ZYOBzEEs

Regards Marcus

There is also one thing we seem to forget, most amateur home players just wound to sound like the orriginal....

Thats also where Yamaha T5 shines, which does not mean you cant make it sound authentic.. But i guess that can be done on the Pa4x to...

You can also create your very own sound on the T5, but the pa4x has many more edditing tools for doing so inside the machine, keep in mind however that with the Yem at the current level and 2GB of internal sample flash ram you can really build your own soundsample base for T5... And there is also many other tools you can run on pc and mac to eddit your T5.. I have rather started to like the fact of edditing things on a large pc screen instead of the small keyboard screen..


As Rosetree says, if you can combine the sound of several sources in your setup like an(y) arranger with a workstation and a few modules or VSTs, its easy to sound orriginal with preset sounds... And if you have only a single instrument you need to create your own sound on it... And thats possible with most current arrangers...