Why do you keep comparing tonewheel organs with electronic organs.... Their sound source is as different as a grand piano vs an electric piano... And about those pipe organs, which the Hammond tried to reproduce in the first place, there is computer software called Hauptwerk which very acurately reproduces many of the greatest pipe organs in the world.

On top of that, Tyros has probably the best pipe organ sounds available in a hardware keyboard. And some of the most beatifull theatre organ sounds. And an acceptable B3.

Just get behind a tyros 5 and play those pipe organ sounds, sure there are no 500 sliders, but they sure sound authentic

The matching bench (complete with spray can of Pledge) is indispensable.

I always say, you don't play a Hammond B-3...you "ride" it. Nothing, but nothing feels like a playing a B-3...it's bulky and substantial, and it feels alive, and I suppose all those whirring tonewheels and robust switches go a long way in giving that effect...plus, there is no fossilized "shrink wrapped" Hammond sound...there are all manner of variable mechanics and electronics, which meant that no two instruments(even of the same year) ever really sounded quite the same.

While there are no "great" DX-7's, or Korg M1's, or even XK3c's and Nord C2's (they are all great), there are most certainly great Hammond B-3s...and, of course, not so good ones too...these are instruments alive with personality.

About the only other electric keyboard instruments in the same "great or not so great personality" field, would be the Fender Rhodes, the Wurlitzer Electric Piano, and perhaps, the Hohner Clavinet...the sound of these instruments, like the B-3, is also timeless.

My several hours on the jam session B-3 are always a special part of my playing experience, and I can't say I'd feel quite the same way playing a Wersi or Lowrey or equivalent...they are nice (especially the matching bench ) , but I don't feel they have as much "personality"; or, maybe, it's just something you may have had to have grown up with, much like our own experience with the Hammond.

Ian

As Chas said above, this is all just "conversational", but, you have to admit that the European organs have all tried to emulate the Hammond sound in one way or another, even to the inclusion of drawbars on their instruments...ditto the Leslie cabinet, either licensing the speaker system itself, or attempting to develop their own version...Wersi's Wersivoice Leslie simulator, for example.

So yes, I think discussing the tonewheel, at least for comparison, is reasonably relevant.

Ian

Oh God, I love this stuff. Almost as much fun as discussing religion and politics.......I said ALMOST .

Oh, and if I didn't already have the BEST clonewheel out there, the KeyB Duo Mark III, I'd most likely have an XK3c+lower manual, pedalboard, custom stand and bench, for a home instrument. I also have a C2D and Leslie 3300 for gigging and a C1 back in the storage room. When I'm sure that I've played my last gig (any day now), I'll sell the C2D (and C1) and hook the Leslie up to the KeyB. I'll also exchange the 3300 for a 122 and move it from the studio to the living room. Because of the potential maintenance, I will probably never go back to a real B3, as much as I'd like to.

chas

And, for as long as I can, I'll keep on playing(and repairing)
mine.


Russ
(Her name is Minnie)

Yes you are right here, where Hammond tried to copy pipe organs, the european electronic organ manufactorers tried to copy some of the functionallity of the hammonds...but also some of the functionallity of the pipe organs (which hammond forget to copy)

And while the sound was different and certainly less expressive, the japanese decided to join the europeans (GX1 was a true beast), and they both kept adding features and features to these organs till in the end they evolved into todays arrangers, even trying to make people forget they where electronic organs one day.

Anyway, being less expressive for sure does not make them sound bad, just different. And as said before these sounds are a major part of traditional european music like schlagers and such...


all in all i think its funny to see how different our roots are, every american thinks B3 when we are talking about organs, while us europeans have a much broader view on organs.. When i envision the modern day organ i vision an instrument that has Pipe, B3, electronic, FM based, theatre and more different type of organ sounds on top of the whole arranger pallet of sounds. it has at least 2 manuals and pedals and a build in arranger accompaniment.

The orriginal B3 and its clones dont even fall in my definition of modern days electronic organs... If i mneant a B3, i would have written B3 or Hammond(clone)

This different view on things might even be the reason why Arrangers are much much more popular in europe then in the US.. To many of us an arranger is a mini organ, to you guys its just an arranger. Even now in euopre most OMBs have still 2 keys on stage, from which atleast one is an arranger, which again shows how deeply double manuall organs are routed in our minds.

I believe the reason I have embraced arrangers so thoroughly was because I was an Electone organ teacher for several years, being a graduate of the Yamaha Electone School...I was teaching on, first, a Yamaha Electone C-30 and then an E-75.

At home I had an Electone D-85 (triple manual) and then two C-605's, the later one a very rare factory portablized model.



These were analog instruments, based mainly on the Yamaha CS-80 synthesizer technology, and they had the early auto-accompaniment (ABC...Auto Bass Chord), although, at that time, I was primarily using pedals.

Owning, and teaching on, these instruments did give me another perspective on organs...Hammond was also branching out into transistorized organs with auto-accompaniment, but I still kept the old B-3 for band use.

Prior to these instruments, and probably also popular in Europe, were the various Farfisa combo organs I used, although my very first combo organ was a second hand Howard Baldwin. These instruments (the Farfisa) did not have auto-accompaniment, but did allow using bass pedals. I ran all these combo organs, the last Farfisa being the VIP-233 model, through a Leslie 147RV, which gave me a fairly Hammondy-like sound (as you say, we North Americans associated "organ" with "Hammond"), and eventually I finally picked up a second hand B-3 and added a second Leslie 147RV. The genuine Hammond sound was what was wanted for the R&B/Rock bands I was working with at the time.

However, the analog Electone were the basis of the early PS-series Portatones and, of course, we sold them at the store where I taught, and, eventually, I ended up using, and teaching on, a PS-55 and later a PS-6100 (which was digital FM based), so again, this is why I have embraced arranger keyboards so enthusiastically, compared to many of my other keyboard playing buddies who usually stayed with the Hammond and subsequently went to clonewheels. At this point, I had become very comfortable with adapting to auto-accompaniment style chording.

My first OMB rigs were usually an Arranger and another keyboard, either a synth or portable piano, so the dual manual organ influence stayed with me for quite some time. Nowadays, the Tyros4 will cover all my needs very well, although, if I do gig again, I'm considering adding a second keyboard, the type of which will depend on what kind of music I'll be focusing on.

Great topic, by the way...it's interesting to see how our cultural backgrounds have affected our choice of instruments, and, music in general.

Ian

Guys, I think I'm in heaven reading this stuff, it's a great topic.
I agree with the theory that the arranger evolved from the home organ, but the Daddy of all electric organs surely is the Hammond, especially the B3.
With regard to the clones, most of them are very good. I do like the KeyB the best, the electronic Leslie is amazing, I'd love to have one. I have read about issues with regard to quality,particularly of models made in Missouri.
I hope this is sorted, as I want to continuing dreaming about having one at some stage.

Frank

Frank, you're quite right about QC problems with the KeyB's made in the Missouri plant (no longer in business). I had to go through three (3) instruments before I got a flawless one, but after two years of daily use, it has been rock solid (as it should be, and as are most electronic keyboards from the last 20 years). I have gotten great (software) support from Italy and believe that if a repair were ever required, it would be no big deal. Everyone that has played one or heard one demonstrated, all agree that sound-wise and ergonomically, it comes closer to a real B3 than any other clonewheel. Like you, I hope that Elvio is able to get them back on the market (strength in numbers, etc.). Again, the keyfeel is spot on, as is ALL the controls, and all the little B3 'tricks' are easily accomplished on the KeyB. If authenticity is your goal, then it's hard for me to imagine how this current iteration could be improved upon. I love it almost as much as Ian loves his T4 .

As to the original topic, I think if it had been titled "Best Organ sounds in an Arranger keyboard", we would have had a different, though equally spirited, discussion. Of course, even then we would have to clarify "organ sounds" - Hammond or those other guys .

Lastly, let me say that although Hammond DID start out as a poorly-executed attempt to provide an affordable substitute for a pipe organ to small (and poor) churches, it quickly evolved into it's own unique instrument, embraced by nearly every other musical genre......and to a much greater degree than any of it's competitors (at least, here in America). Even after all these years, it (the Hammond sound) is still a dominant force in popular music. How many other non-acoustic instruments can say that?

chas