Occasionally, I get styles sent to me that the owner would like converted to kn6k format. Maybe they came from a friend, or the sending person owns more than one keyboard by different manufacturers, and wants the commercial disk converted so as to use it on both keyboards. While I get to use my copy to play with, I am asked to keep it off the internet, which also means that I can't use it with a sequenced song. I will honor this request, because even if I can't pass the styles along, I can get a lot of ideas from them to use on other conversions. Especially older styles that only have two variations and I have to fill in the other two to bring them up to par. Now, after a period of time, someone else sends me the same styles, sometimes already converted, or I come upon them on a website, converted to another unnamed brand, but ready for anyone to download and use, and this has become a real problem for me. If I use the styles from the first party, that person will think I didn't honor the agreement, and likely never send me anything again. However, since the styles are there for everyone, why shouldn't I pass along the good ones? (Keep in mind that these will not be Technics commercial styles.) Should I make it a policy to not get into that type of agreement, or make it for a set period of time? I have styles I've been sitting on for six months, and some I really would like to use. If the sender makes no special request, then you all will see the results eventually, and we all benefit from the exchange. I suppose I should say that from this point forward, any styles sent for conversion will be shared with forum readers, so if anyone has styles they don't wish to share, then please keep them to yourself. We have enough older material from Solton, Roland, Yamaha, and Korg to last a good many years. All they need are a fresh change of clothes. Complicated, but not impossible. Time consuming, but rewarding. Now, about those CA software styles....are they under copyright protection or open for use? I haven't had time to even look at them yet.

Well Bud, I think for the most part you have answered your own question. If you are asked to do your magic to a style, then you should be free to do what you wish with it. If the player want to use the the style exclusively, they are free to try and do the conversion themselves. Perhaps GJ will know about the CA material.
Frank

Hi Bud,
I agree with Frank on the style conversion. And with you, that
there is enough on the net for my life time.
As far as I know about CA site, their download of the styles are free, since nothing is required to access them off the download page. To me it would be the same as going to Gunnar's site and downloading styles.
Best Regards,
Dave

Hi all.
The downloadabe styles and songs at Christian's (CA soft) website is free to download, and as far as I know the styles is made by him, or/and converted and tweaked stuff.
Maybe he will see this topic, and post a reply too?
However, some of the songs are well known, and probably will be copyrightet, but there are also a lot of "traditionals" who often are "old" of age and free to use.

At my webpage it is only converted "onboard" style-sets from different keyboards, and hopefully there are not any from the manufacturers or others addondisks who is for sale to find. If you happen to find any of that kind, it's not legal, so please feel free to tell me, and it will be removed immediately.
Kind regards
GJ

Gunnar, you're right of course. The keyboard manufacturers copy "on board" styles from each other, and give us the means to do the same. I have come across styles from each keyboard maker that are so similar, I'm left wondering who actually came out with it first. It's confusing at times and easy to get them mixed up, but we are generally safe to use the older stuff that has been on the net for a few years. Personally, the Technics styles made for our keyboards, still sounds better than the competition.

Why is it that most converted styles don't seem to sound as good as the on-board Technics styles? I'm talking about the richness, robustness, and fullness of the individual parts, not the style itself. Is there something in the conversion process that reduces the sound quality? Often the various converted parts sound tinny or thin to my ear, compared to the same on-board sounds within a Technics style.
Larry

there is a lot of adjustment available in the composer, not necessarily available in other manufacturers style systems - and vice versa.

so a conversion can only come up with the notes used in each track, pretty well balanced if you are lucky, with a sound hopefully close to that of the original.

since other keyboards have other sounds, and a style is played with an original voice, a conversion will sound slightly wrong in the same way that your sequence that sounded fine on an older keyboard does not sound the same on a newer keyboard, even though the sounds are much better. You tend to play taking into account the feel of the voice - if the attack, decay, brilliance or richness has changed, the feel will also change.

that's why you pay for professioanly produced disks, a lot of work and tweaking has gone into them to produce a fine style sound rather than just an average one.

Bud, I don't think the keyboard manufacturers really copy the styles
of eachother, but maybe the sources are very similiar?
If you pay the intro's etc. good attention, you will often hear that it
will point you to one song or another who was/is popular in the time
close up to the date those keyboards was released, or songs popular
within the category of choosen musicstyle.
This you can hear in the additional software too, even if they like to
call it "allround", and of course even more in the songrelated styles
available.
Yes, the styles will always sound best on the keyboard brand they are
buildt to be played on, regardless to manufacturer and model.
I think Alec's reply for Larry is a very good description about those
matters.
GJ

Hello Friends,

CA-Styles are Copyrighted...

I have put them on my Site and
Christian has write me an Letter
that he whant that i write down
from who comes the Styles and so on...

If they are "FREE", why i must write
that on my Site ?

I have ask him and he have answer me
that he have make the Styles and that
the copyright is by him...

I'm not worrie with him, but i whant
show you that they are "free" to use,
but not for more....

Greets
Thomas http://www.thkmcs.de

Hi
Talking about copyright of styles.

Who have this copyright ASCAP, BIEM or...???
Some of the styles I´ve heard is often a copy of a copyright music. For ex. James Bond theme,(in the 6500)will be protected by John Barry. If you have a MIDI song like for ex.ABBA:s "Dancing Queen", it is protected by copyright on STIM in Sweden. It will be the same presuppose as a record. When you buy it you must pay for copyright. But styles,is some kind of music arrangement, and only for 4 or 8 bars. So far I know there are no copyrights of this kind of stuff, yet.
Rgd
Lindoz


[This message has been edited by Lindoz (edited 04-12-2002).]

Thomas,
if Christian ask you to tell the visitors at your site that the styles you have downloadable is his work and from from his website, that is totally different from copyrights.
That is good manners to do if you offer someone elses stuff.
However, there are songs in that collections who are written by other authors/composers, such as i.e. Tico-Tico, and that is maybe a song within the copyrighted category?

Lindoz, the discussion about styles and copyright has been/is a "hot topic" at the SZ General Arranger forum too.
Yamaha was/is in that discussion, and there is some interesting reading about it both at SZ and Yahoo Yamaha Groups.
Kind regards
GJ

[This message has been edited by Gunnar Jonny (edited 04-13-2002).]

Ok Gunnar
I will take a look on it
Lindoz

the musicians union has rules about how many notes need to be the same for a melody to be copyrighted.

The style creators never have the same notes as the song for more than a few notes to avoid the rule. That's why the keyboard intros which identify the song always need a little editing to give the original intro.

If the style is very close to the song, they may well have to pay a royalty to the composer/arranger, I don't know. Maybe that is why Yamaha insisted on the removal of their internal styles from the user groups?

thus a style is not the same as a song, but if you can prove creation of an original style you can still sue if someone copies it, or distributes it unauthorised.

Hi again
The truth is that there are no styles which has any copyright exept those you can compare with a protected/copyright song. No one has bring the matter to court of any style. Not in EU and not in US. However, in Sweden we have a great sample soundlibrary on the internet. This library is own by the SAMI ( Swedish musicians ),and is in some ways protected. Songs however, is copyrighted in STIM ( Swedish songwriters).
If anyone is interested in sample sounds, you can mail me for further information.
Lindoz


[This message has been edited by Lindoz (edited 04-13-2002).]

Hi Lindoz,
if you can't own a style then how come Yamaha lawyers closed down the download sections of the Yamaha User Groups?

Hi Alec
They maybe are afraid of what´s comes up in the future. And if some of their styles is such styles that belongs to copyright songs, they are in trouble soon...
Rgd
Lindoz

Hi Lindoz,
The 2000 and 907 styles were all freely available and by no means are all of them based on songs, many are just the standard Yamaha simple 2 and 4 measure styles.

Yet Yamaha lawyers insisted that the user groups remove the styles of the new keyboards purely from their own commercial interest point of view. Thus there must be some legal ownership for them to do this, otherwise the user groups could just ignore them?

It looks like Yamaha want to offer styles (but only from the older products) at their own web site, so this move was to strengthen their own position in this regard, and just to prevent others from offering the Yamaha styles.

It sounds like copyright protection for keyboard music styles is still in a legal twilight zone. It seems to me, that if a keyboard manufacturer developes a product for sale to the general public that includes onboard rhythm styles, then the buyer has purchased permission to use the styles in any way they please, even for commercial gain. Why would any musician, professional or amateur, have to pay the instrument maker for the music that comes from that instrument, when ultimately the musician is responsible for the composition? Do you think Baldwin should collect royalities for every song produced with their instruments? On course not! It would be absurd. Even the commercial music styles we buy on disk, should be ours to use for whatever reason. That there is a way to delete the sequenced song and keep the style, is something that was developed by the manufacturer, not by the end user, and shouldn't be a factor to keep us from using the "purchased" style in our musical career. By offering us the style for money, it would seem again, we are buying the right to use the style for personal gain. Professional musicians must run some sort of risk by using styles or music at gigs where they are paid for their performance, the same as those who use the styles for recorded music that they will eventually try to sell. The difference is that the recording musician pays for the use of the music, not the style of the composition. If you were to copy an Elvis song note for note, sound for sound, with your voice or instrument, who gets the royalities? The song writer, not Elvis. It also seems that if there were an actual legal leg to stand on, this would have gone before some court, somewhere, long before now. A precedence has been allowed to establish itself that might not be able to be changed without a lot of legal wrangling. But then, not being a lawyer, I may be totally wrong. Just don't ask me to be on the jury and be in favor of the manufacturer.

but no-one has objected to performers using arrangers with built in styles on stage for commercial gain, if anything they would be pleased for the free advertising.

Yamaha have objected to distribution of their styles by third parties, I'm guessing either because they fear the effect on sales of those products, or because they want control of the distribution themselves so you have to go to their web site.

The baldwin piano argument does not stand because there are no styles in a piano, you have to produce all musical results yourself. When using a style in an arranger keyboard someone else has already done more than half the work for you.

If you produced a million seller with their style and made a million dollars they may well have something to say about it, even if it was your melody? Now that would be an interesting test case...

Hey what about the sounds they are all made or sampled by somebody or from something else if we compose
we cannot use styles just in case we infringe on someones copywrite than the sounds we use also must come under the same heading,:confused
jan

an interesting point.
but copyright protects expression, which probably means putting a sequence of notes together to produce something musical that everyone else recognises as a tune.

you could argue that the best performers are selected for sample sessions because their playing expression is superior to more average players.

I have not heard of Akai or Korg taking someone to court over stealing of samples, but I think you would have to re-sell the samples as your own to break the law?

Has there not been a precedent set over the legality of sampling musical phrases from other recordings and stringing them together to a new beat?

Hi
Could it be so that Yamaha has some problems with their styles, because they are copys from some other brands on the market. Or maybe the agreement between the writers and Yamaha has failed in some way. The style makers maybe want more money if the old styles is copyied to the new keyboards. And more, why just ask Yamaha what´s the problem is. Yamaha is maybe more in touch with the keyboard owners than Technics?
Lindoz

Rather worried.
If I whistle a tune going down the street, could I be "done"for copyright???

Walter.

I don't dare to think of any melody when I'm outdoor, and sure not whistle it, not even
indoor without my windows closed.
Just take a look at my midipage and see what
happened.
GJ

Walter!
I´ve heard that the union will introduce a whistling meter on people in Scotland. There are too much noice on the streets I´ve heard....

Great one Gunnar,
although on reflection, I would be safe. My whistling is like my playing, no one recognises the tune!!!

Walter.

Lindoz, it's not noise, it is me whistling!!!

You're all lucky who never heard me singing
GJ

Hi,

In replay of all this I can tell you how it is in Holland. As an example Bud's Elvis exampl.

If I want to cover/record a song of Elvis I need to have permission of the owner of the rights of the song/melody.
Even if I want to use different lyrics and only need the melody. If he thinks it's ok and proberly pay a lot of royalties i can record this disc. Those who copy or play (as a DJ or a store )that disc have to pay royalties to my.

That's way everybody whose producing music to gain a bonefit the one or the otherway,
by a gigging musician, as a DJ, or the shopowner who wants some atmosphere in his shop, even the Radio and TV channels etc. have to pay a fee. Like in Sweden I have read in the mesagge of Lindoz in Holland too is a institute which collect that money.

So if I made a legal style from a known Elvis song the copyright for the style is mine and i had permission for doing that by paying royalties to the owner/publisher of the original score.
Or if I do some bar's and a small change than the original owner don't get any fee from me, because it is created from scrath by myself. But the copyright for the style is still mine and everybody who using it for making mony with it have to pay rayolties.


rgds.
Wim

[This message has been edited by waterschip (edited 04-15-2002).]

Hello all together,

everything on this earth has a copyright, and so my styles, too. You can do what you want with my styles, but only for your own!!! If you change a style and play it on a gig it's OK. But if you change a style and sell it, it's not OK! I want, that my styles are free for everyone!

Best regards and many greetings to Gunnar
(sorry about my bad English!)

Crysyl
(Webmaster and programmer of the styles from CA-Software)

Well said, Crysyl! Thank you for your excellent work.

Thank's a lot Crysyl, and my very best greetings to you too
GJ

Bud,

I may be wrong, but each of us has the wanting to share with a freind. I see nothing wrong with that.....if it is one freind.

The problem comes when it is BROADCAST for the world. If I were Technote or anyone in the business for profit, I woud complain.

Fran in Florida