Are they OMB's like we are ?

of course not Bernie ....it's just that we all have to play nice together in this industry ......there's room for all of us anyway we do it with whatever we use...

So lets talk about your examples for a second Bill.

The first is an organ with what most normall people would agree is an arranger inside it right or wrong ? So your first example of something that plays as fluidly and is as instantaneous in creating full music expression already has an arranger inside ????

Can you not see the slight flaw in that example ????

The second one is not even an instrument ! Let me walk you through a scenario

A man walks into the shop "I want to buy a musical instrument." Assistant says "Certainly so what sort of instrument did you want to buy?" The man responds I want to buy a midi keyboard laptop Alberton live instrument please . In fact I'll have two one for me and one for my friend Bill" shop assistant says "who makes it I have not heard of that instrument? Customer says don't talk such nonsense everybody's heard of that instrument surely? Shop assistant replies "I'm really sorry sir we don't sell that instrument I could sell you a midi keyboard and I could direct you to my friend techi Thomas who owns a computer store up the road and and I could sell you some software but we don't have one instrument of that kind.

Customer walks away shaking his head " I should've just bought one of them bloody arranger thingies from the Yamaha shop! Bill will be gutted "

I'm just Playing with you bill . No disrespect intended . Enjoy making music . Take care . Worth

Donny, no they are not stupid...but they sure are ignorant
Ignorant of the fact...they don't have a clue how a top arranger keyboard can do everything they need..They just don't understand the instrument...and are closed minded to even learn..

Perfect example..Go into any bigtime music store, ask a sales person about any top arranger..after you explain what it is to them...you can assume these "pro" players with sales jobs, are not much different than other "pro" players..

They are ignorant!!!!

The very first time I used arranger keyboards..I seen the benefits from a players view..No I was not interested in "auto" play, but the possibilities of using it as a player..

With left hand bass, drum machine built in and quick set up for any tune..Fast forward to today..and I still look for these same benefits.The vast majority of "pro" players, have never tried or experienced what I am talking about...All they know is any 10 year old kid can play a Casio and sound better than they do ..thus they block it out and miss the boat how much more efficient they could be..

Stupid NO..Ignorant .you bet

I think there is the OMB/Businessman point of view and the MUSICIAN'S point of view. Each has different requirements and different expectations from their instrument. You won't find any classically trained, (true) professional level, musician using or even owning an arranger keyboard. Likewise, you won't find more than 1% of arranger-playing OMB's that could play a solo piano or organ gig. Anyway you look it, an arranger keyboard, despite it's many virtues, is a CRUTCH used by the same people who prefer a 'magic' diet pill to proper diet and exercise.

A lot of what Donny said (I can't believe I'm saying this ) is true; most TRUE professionals wouldn't be caught dead on a gig with an arranger keyboard. It may make you feel good to say that they're all "ignorant" and YOU are smarter than 99% of the musician population, but you're only blowing smoke up your own butt.

Arranger keyboards are aimed primarily at 'home players'. Pro musicians know this, the manufacturers know this, most of the non-arranger-owning world knows this. But, to quote the 'good book', "there is none so blind as he that WILL not see".

Me personally, I think arrangers are great as a vehicle to push the technology, and an absolute boom to OMB's with passable vocals but couldn't play their way out of a paper bag. Few of those would be able to keep all those hip-replacements on the dance floor without them (arrangers).

So here's to Arrangers and their fanatical followers. Heck, I may take one out on a gig myself, but not till I perfect my lip-sync and Air Guitar skills.

chas

PS: Hey Worth, you, of all people, should know that that great Gospel Organ and Gospel piano can ONLY be done on the REAL thing, baby. So put that arranger down and go practice . BTW, if you ever make it to the 'states', look me up; I'd love to meet you.

I can't disagree with you about the organ Chas . It's a discipline all of its own . Some day I might make it over there but in the mean time the Internet is the best we can do .

Chas, your view proves my point....If you read my comments again..I never mentioned the "auto" play as a preferred benefit...but it is that mentallity that prevents folks...to find that the "arranger" keyboard can be a great asset..even for the won't be caught dead crowd..

BTW: I have an accomplished classical playing friend..that actually knows chords too...and uses an arranger for some gigs..
He is a doctorate of music..

Another friend, that can out play anyone I know...he too has a PA1x...

To just say a blanket statement that no one would gig with an arranger if they were real pros...just don't fly..

To say players that are ignorant of the facts an arranger can make music to satisfy themm...well it is true..

Fran, if you aren't talking 'auto-play', then you aren't talking arrangers.

Secondly, what you (and many others on this board) consider 'Pro' and what I consider 'Pro' are vastly different things. If you are able to pick up an occasional check or even make a living with the level of skill exhibited by the self-proclaimed 'pros' here, then I say, more power to you. Hey, a whole generation of people were deluded into thinking Bob Dylan could sing, so Anything is possible .

chas

Chas, you can use a shovel to break ground and build a new hospital....or you can use a shovel to shovel horse manure in a stable...I don't know who would be the pro..
BTW: My friends I mentioned above are pros on everyone's list..
I think if you are concerned for the skill level...we can turn off the "auto" stuff..call off some tunes and just play...I am up for it..when you flying in to Philly area?

Sorry Fran, I just don't know that many Polkas .

chas