Not sure if this has been featured before, however it does show the differences between them.

Enjoy

Bill

Thanks, quite a good approach.

there are far more similarities between workstattions and arrangers than most keyboard players actually realise and the clip does not make the buying decision any more clear unless they had absolutely no clue about arrangers and workstations. The differences highlighted in the video by Richie really only points to the features that the workstation does not have compared to an arranger rather than the features the arranger keyboard does not have compared to a Workstation. Contrary to how the difference were explained in the clip , Sound design/creation ,Editing, layering, Effects processing, sequencing and mastering are all features that the Arranger has to a lesser degree than a fully fledged workstation, granted , but more than sufficient for most keyboard musicians and would cover pretty much all bases for most workstastinattion users needs. He pointed to the ability to shift octave on a arranger to ilustrate i guess the ease of transposing a sound and then compared that to "deeper tweaks as you play " on a worksattion steering musiicians down the worksattion route for greater sound editing , filters modulation etc when clearly arrangers can do this too. By steering musicians down two distinct paths, it only serves to make money for the manufacturer but in reality, one board (the arranger) would meet most of the needs of anyone making music through a keyboard.

I have yet to hear any music composed on keyboard where you could tell with your (eyes shut) whetehr it emanated from a dedicated workstation or an arranger workstation.

Good points however it’s not as simple as that.

If you’re working in a professional production environment (Where time is money) ease of use is required, (In particular building up sequences) now with a workstation it is a piece of cake to put a sequence together (Once you understand how it works) whereas to do the same in an arranger is slow and convoluted. (The results come out the same but the arranger takes a lot lot longer)

As far as layers go the workstation leaves all arrangers for dead, as they can easily layer 16 or more with splits and crossover layers, (Required for heavy production work) and there is no arranger built that comes anywhere close.

Sounds
Depends on the Workstation, however the Korg Kronos in the demo has real synth and effect engines built in (No samples required) that operate like the original synths that created them (FM, Wavetable, Analogue etc.) which gives a realism and control that no hardware arranger can even come close to.
As to the sampled sounds then they are of a much greater size (More samples per voice) than arrangers (In the Korg for example the piano alone is about 4 times the size of the entire PA3x sample memory) thus really standing out for realism. (Assuming you know how to play it that is)

Real time controls.
Virtually every parameter can be assigned to a knob or slider in a Workstation (Thus allowing the player to modify to his heart’s content with the twist of a knob) whereas the assignable controls and parameters in an arranger are more limited. (Nothing wrong with that as their designed for a type of player that just wants to press a button and everything is setup for them)

If you just need to stick something together quick (Like a demo) the arranger blows the Workstation out of the water, but when it comes the final mix then the arranger is too slow and limited to be of much use.

There is no reason why both could not be incorporated into one instrument, but no pro player will pay arranger prices for a keyboard, and arranger players will probably not use 95% of the features on-board, so having 2 keyboards targeted at the 2 different markets is quite logical.

The raw deal is for the arranger players, as they are charged over the odds for antiquated technology. (For example the T5 has sounds and features that are at least 5 years old in the pro world, but because Yamaha has put them together in an easy play format (Press a button and everything is done for you) home players (the primary target of arranger manufactures) absolutely love it, and don’t mind (Or don’t realise) their paying through the nose)

Bill

If you try to sequence an entirely original piece of music note for note instrument by instrument on any hardware or software sequencer the process is likely to be very similar. It doesn't matter if the sequencer is in an arranger keyboard like the Korg PA products or the Kronos workstation .

Both workstation user and arranger player would use the instrument to flesh out the main shape of their song or production. That will involve manually playing each instruments ,the chords rhythms and some of the effects. But anyone using a workstation professionally to produce anything more than a rough sketch will more than likely use a computer to do the mastering and mix down of the finished product.

You can do that on an arranger or synth workstation .

You can talk all day about the extent to which sound can be manipulated, or how many synth engines are on the Kronos or how many different effects can be applied to an individual track. But it's clear that a great deal can be done in terms of sound manipulation on a korg arranger and not simply just transposing the notes an Octave !

And just how many synth engines does anyone need for 90% of the music that is produced today? How many hit songs were composed and produced entirely by one work station ? None or virtually none .

Listen to any Kronos demonstration and you will hear the same kinds of sounds or similar sounds used on the Korg arranger . They are mainly pianos electric pianos organs stringed instruments horns percussion and pads . The same demos are used on almost all workstations in terms of the selection of instruments chosen. Does it take 9 synth engines to do that ?The answer is no ! Are those same sounds found on an arranger keyboard? The answer is yes. So who are these pro workstation demonstrations aimed at if they are using the same sounds you can find on an arranger and sequencing in the same way I do on my korg arranger ? Strange

Hi Spalding

You have obviously never used a Workstation or a DAW (I have) as I can assure you there is no arranger on the market that cones anywhere close to the speed a sequence can be setup on a Workstation or DAW. (That you find the manipulation of sound on an arranger is as good as a Workstation or DAW also shows you have never used one, because I can assure you there is just no comparison)

As to the quality of the sound, then if you listen through a high quality sound system (Forget computer speakers and on-board sound chips) I can assure you that if you compared the same voices on a PA3x and a Kronos, the PA3x sounds constricted in comparison. (On its own the PA3x sounds great, but is way short of a Workstation or VST instrument, also don’t underestimate the importance of effect engines as they can make or break a sound)

Here’s something for you to do, download a free DAW and some VST Plug-ins (Sound & Effects) Just do a quick Google search to see what takes your fancy, (Make sure the DAW can host plug-ins) and have a good play about with it, (It will take a few weeks to get used to it and find out about it) and you will wonder why you ever thought that your PA1x was a comprehensively equipped instrument suitable for production. (For its role an arranger is a great instrument to use, but no way can it replace a Workstation or DAW. (And vice versa)

Bill

You need to read my post again bill . I did not say that the sounds were the same quality on any keyboard whether arranger or workstation or that the manipulation of the the sounds were the same . I made the point that the arranger can do much deeper sound editing than just transposing octaves contrary to what the demo might lead folkes to believe . And I am not sure you have ever sequenced any original music at all on either workstation or arranger workstation . I have and the process is very similar as I described above . Here is a demo of creating a song on the Kronos http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7JHf1XqzBOU . The process is very similar to what I do on my pa1x . Not the same but very similar .

The detail of the extent the finished song can be mastered most likely will be finished on a daw just like any other workstation but the process of playing in to the sequencer the instruments , copying and pasting , overwriting ,over dubbing quantising ,micro editing , adding strength of swing , editing specific notes punching in and out , muting tracts to solo parts adding effects to tracks and the strength of those effects using the mixer , panning instruments detuning and so on are all similar to the functions on a workstation . Yes the workstation can go deeper , that is a given but in 90percent of the cases where a musician fleshes out a production they will finish it on a computer and not the keyboard itself in any case .

The general point I'm making is that the similarities between workstations and arrangers such as the korg range are more similar than different. Similar does not mean the same . And most workstation users would be very surprised by what can be achieved on an arranger keyboard workstation similar to what could be achieved on a traditional workstation ,and the speed that it can be done as I have demonstrated to my pro and semi pro musician friends week after week .

That's the simple point I am making . These dumbed down demos don't represent anything like what an arranger is actually capable of and in my view misrepresents the tools available on a totl arranger

Hi Spalding

1st point, I have been using Midi & sequencing since the middle 80s (Pretty much since Midi came out) and I can assure you producing a sequence then was way more difficult than now (But it gave a great grounding), by the early 90s I had left the organ/arranger keyboards behind (They were not developing fast enough for me, Not even the Wersi & Bohm) and went over to a full computer based play/music production system (Still have a lot of it, but more modern) and also embraced VST when they came out in the middle 90s.

The main downside was that the equipment was not suitable for having in the lounge which was a bit of a bummer, however in 2002 I found the Wersi which allowed me to load (Or had included) a lot of computer stuff for playing with, (something up and till then (And still the same now) could not be done on any other hardware board) plus it could go in the lounge which is something I missed. (If it wasn’t for these features I would still be using a fully computer based setup in a separate room as my main music playing system)

The Korg Arrangers have always had in depth features, (They were spin offs from their Pro Line) but no way are they up to in depth music production or what I am used to for my personal entertainment.

The point that most home hobby players won’t use any of these in depth features I made in my previous post, however you are trying to say that arrangers can be used in a high speed production environment, and I can assure you they can’t. (They were never designed for this purpose (It’s like trying to go real off roading in a Ford Fiesta, you just can’t do it even though many of the features are the same as a Toyota Land Cruiser)

Bill

So Bill what is your process when sequencing an original piece of music? How do you play into your Wersi the actual Notes , chords , bass drums brass strings? How do you edit those things and how would you do it differently on a workstation like the Kronos compared to an arranger workstation like a pa3 x ? What are the key differences in the process ?

Do you have any examples of finished pieces that you have done solely on your Wersi ?

I would genuinely like to know the stages in process that you believe are so different .

Hi Spalding

I only use the Wersi for finishing off (Its used more as a computer software playback machine) as like all organ/arrangers there are not enough programmable real-time controls, whereas my controller keyboard has 8 rotary and 8 (+1) sliders that are all assignable to what parameters I require either on the controller itself or via software. (A controller keyboard is a Workstation without any sounds or software)

Over the years I have built up a vast amount of sequence tracks + modern software also includes 1000s of loops and sequences as standard, (Not forgetting the vast amount available on the web) all of which are a couple of clicks away (Hardware Organs/Arrangers only have a fraction of the capacity to store loops/sequence tracks, so you have to keep swapping loop/sequence tracks in and out or play every single track manually, combine this with the miserably small screens on most Organ/Arrangers and it becomes a herculean task to do anything quickly (Due the programmable real-time sequence controls on a workstation you don’t need a massive screen) particularly as most force you to jump between pages to get things done) and all in front of you.

The programmable real-time controls on workstations allow you to put together your ideas on the fly, whereas Organ/Arrangers force you to jump through hoops. (However this may change if what I am hearing comes to fruition)

Until Organ/Arrangers come with a comprehensive set of programmable real time controls they will always be relegated to basic tasks, plus in the Workstation/DAW environment it is about creating something unique, whereas an Organ/Arranger is about copying something with a theme (Big Band for example) which is where they score over Workstations/DAWs, as when you press a sound button all the programing has been done for you, rather than just giving you the basics.

If you have never got stuck into a Workstation or DAW then the arranger capabilities (Particularly the Korg) would seem quite advanced, but I can assure are nothing but a pain in the backside.

Bill